Why the current wave of "gun control" is unconstitutional

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary Committee will hold a hearing on the various gun control proposals that have been floated in the wake of the Sandy Hook school shootings. Although they are said to be merely "reasonable regulations" of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms, most or all of these proposals are irrational and unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court has established a two-tiered protection of liberty. Under the lowest tier, "rational basis review," it will uphold restrictions on liberty so long as it can imagine any possible reason why Congress might have adopted the measure. By contrast, if a liberty is deemed by the court to be a "fundamental right," it will subject restrictions of that right to "heightened scrutiny," meaning that it will skeptically examine the means Congress chose to achieve its ends. This close comparison of means to ends is intended to smoke out justifications that are really pretexts for efforts to improperly stigmatize or restrict the exercise of a fundamental right.

In 2008, the Supreme Court held that the right to keep and bear arms was a fundamental right. In DC v. Heller, the court did not specify the exact type of heightened scrutiny it would employ when legislation restricts gun rights, except to insist that it would be higher than "rational basis review," and that a complete ban on weapons "in common use" by the citizenry for self-defense and other lawful purposes -- such as handguns -- is unconstitutional under any type of heightened scrutiny.

So, when considering the constitutionality of bans on so-called military-style assault weapons, or restrictions on the capacity of magazines, senators should begin by asking whether the weapons being banned are in common use by civilians. When it comes to so-called assault weapons, like the AR-15, or 30-round magazines, the answer is clearly "yes." Millions of such weapons and magazines are in private hands.

That should settle the matter, but senators can go a step further and ask whether these or other measures are actually rational -- to articulate the end they are seeking to accomplish, then assesses whether the means adopted actually match up with the purported end. Would they actually have prevented a mass shooting or ameliorated real crimes?

This heightened "rationality review" could help ensure that the reason being articulated is the real reason for the law. For example, "assault weapons" are a made-up category of weapons that is based solely on cosmetic features that make them look like the fully automatic weapons used by the military. Banning them leaves other rifles that are functionally identical in their lethality and rate of fire completely legal. Moreover, far more powerful hunting rifles are left untouched by the law, as are shotguns. This is simply irrational and therefore unconstitutional.

The same can be said for New York's law limiting handguns to seven rounds, while allowing both active and retired police officers to keep their handguns that hold up to 15 rounds. If retired cops need 15 rounds to effectively protect themselves and others, then so do other citizens. Arbitrarily discriminating among Americans in this way is irrational and unconstitutional.

In fact, heightened rationality review confirms what we independently know is going on. Within hours of Sandy Hook, gun control proponents were beating the drums for their long-desired measures, like background checks for private gun sales, that would not in any way have prevented that tragedy. But the exploitation of these deaths is not just morally offensive. The attempts to rush such measures through Congress before emotions can subside are irrational and pretextual, which means they are also unconstitutional.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member

  • The same can be said for New York's law limiting handguns to seven rounds, while
    allowing both active and retired police officers to keep their handguns that hold up to 15 rounds. If retired cops need 15 rounds to effectively protect themselves and others, then so do other citizens. Arbitrarily discriminating among Americans in this way is irrational and unconstitutional.



    The Founding Fathers understood the true nature of human beings far more clearly than the current ruling class.
    We suffer the consequences. For shame.:joint:











 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
I agree with both of the above posts but after the Supremes, Chief Justice Roberts in particular, ruled that Obama can make everybody buy health insurance... I hold no hope for future rulings.
 

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
I agree with both of the above posts but after the Supremes, Chief Justice Roberts in particular, ruled that Obama can make everybody buy health insurance... I hold no hope for future rulings.
The point is, there is enough supreme court precedent (democrats like to call it settled law when it's about abortion) to render the proposals unconstitutional. The court isn't going to reverse itself.What it did with Heller, was to draw the line on what could be considered arms. When the military has plasma rifles, does the second amendment guarantee everyone the right to have those? The court said that it will be a hard sell for congress to attempt legislation that suppresses gun ownership when the gun in question is in common use by the citizenry. In other words, what is widespread out there now is covered, but others may not be. Whether the court would allow congress to say, "this is illegal because we don't like the way it looks even though functionally it is no different than legal guns" remains to be seen. I doubt if they would.

But it won't matter. I believe the liberals understood from the start that this would never pass even the senate, so whether it was constitutional or not didn't matter. Their goal was never to pass a law, they knew they couldn't do that. Their goal was to grandstand on the deaths of those kids, and try to create an issue they can use against republicans in the future - "all gun deaths are the fault of republicans."
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary Committee will hold a hearing on the various gun control proposals that have been floated in the wake of the Sandy Hook school shootings. Although they are said to be merely "reasonable regulations" of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms, most or all of these proposals are irrational and unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court has established a two-tiered protection of liberty. Under the lowest tier, "rational basis review," it will uphold restrictions on liberty so long as it can imagine any possible reason why Congress might have adopted the measure. By contrast, if a liberty is deemed by the court to be a "fundamental right," it will subject restrictions of that right to "heightened scrutiny," meaning that it will skeptically examine the means Congress chose to achieve its ends. This close comparison of means to ends is intended to smoke out justifications that are really pretexts for efforts to improperly stigmatize or restrict the exercise of a fundamental right.

In 2008, the Supreme Court held that the right to keep and bear arms was a fundamental right. In DC v. Heller, the court did not specify the exact type of heightened scrutiny it would employ when legislation restricts gun rights, except to insist that it would be higher than "rational basis review," and that a complete ban on weapons "in common use" by the citizenry for self-defense and other lawful purposes -- such as handguns -- is unconstitutional under any type of heightened scrutiny.

So, when considering the constitutionality of bans on so-called military-style assault weapons, or restrictions on the capacity of magazines, senators should begin by asking whether the weapons being banned are in common use by civilians. When it comes to so-called assault weapons, like the AR-15, or 30-round magazines, the answer is clearly "yes." Millions of such weapons and magazines are in private hands.

That should settle the matter, but senators can go a step further and ask whether these or other measures are actually rational -- to articulate the end they are seeking to accomplish, then assesses whether the means adopted actually match up with the purported end. Would they actually have prevented a mass shooting or ameliorated real crimes?

This heightened "rationality review" could help ensure that the reason being articulated is the real reason for the law. For example, "assault weapons" are a made-up category of weapons that is based solely on cosmetic features that make them look like the fully automatic weapons used by the military. Banning them leaves other rifles that are functionally identical in their lethality and rate of fire completely legal. Moreover, far more powerful hunting rifles are left untouched by the law, as are shotguns. This is simply irrational and therefore unconstitutional.

The same can be said for New York's law limiting handguns to seven rounds, while allowing both active and retired police officers to keep their handguns that hold up to 15 rounds. If retired cops need 15 rounds to effectively protect themselves and others, then so do other citizens. Arbitrarily discriminating among Americans in this way is irrational and unconstitutional.

In fact, heightened rationality review confirms what we independently know is going on. Within hours of Sandy Hook, gun control proponents were beating the drums for their long-desired measures, like background checks for private gun sales, that would not in any way have prevented that tragedy. But the exploitation of these deaths is not just morally offensive. The attempts to rush such measures through Congress before emotions can subside are irrational and pretextual, which means they are also unconstitutional.


Although there are flaws in the basic presumption that the Supreme Court makes in regard to levels of rights in that the court doesn't always follow it's own state approach I wish to take issue with the last two paragraphs.

the purpose of allowing retired LEO's their weapons is grandfathering, a way of easing a new concept of law into a society. It has little or nothing to do with the difference in the capacity of one weapon to be effective over another and everything to do with how laws are implemented in an evolving society.

Secondly and more importantly - the author (I presume the author is not the OP and the author should be credited), calls for a "cooling off period" before laws that seem more or less relevent depending upon current events. Although the laws called for may not have prevented the last tragedy, it may well prevent the next one and we will never know. Making law based upon reasonable projection of the threat is not unheard of and often times wise. However, we are in a continual state of "mass shooting", never going, it seems more than a few months between one and the next. Were we to wait for that proper emotional cooling off period before we tackle pertient legislation we would wait for ever.

the author confused "powerful" with "lethalality". What is being addressed here may not be totaly rational, as in the case of banning items that look more dangerous than others, clearly this is foolish on its face but it may not be upon further examination. That a bolt action rifle is more "powerful" than a semi-automatic weapon with a far greater capacity is not the point. The point is the ability of the shooter to get off many more rounds before having to stop (however long that pause may be) before he can continue to do further damage. As is so often the case, this author makes the same logical mistakes so many other anti-gun control advocates make, confusing one issue with another in order to make a single point.

and- I get a kick out of this - - "This is simply irrational and therefore unconstitutional" - there is nothing that says - regardless of the author's assertions to the contrary, that rationality has any relationship with real world constitutionality. We can point to any number of irrational decisions by the court in their quest to determine constitutionality.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Although there are flaws in the basic presumption that the Supreme Court makes in regard to levels of rights in that the court doesn't always follow it's own state approach I wish to take issue with the last two paragraphs.

the purpose of allowing retired LEO's their weapons is grandfathering, a way of easing a new concept of law into a society. It has little or nothing to do with the difference in the capacity of one weapon to be effective over another and everything to do with how laws are implemented in an evolving society.

Secondly and more importantly - the author (I presume the author is not the OP and the author should be credited), calls for a "cooling off period" before laws that seem more or less relevent depending upon current events. Although the laws called for may not have prevented the last tragedy, it may well prevent the next one and we will never know. Making law based upon reasonable projection of the threat is not unheard of and often times wise. However, we are in a continual state of "mass shooting", never going, it seems more than a few months between one and the next. Were we to wait for that proper emotional cooling off period before we tackle pertient legislation we would wait for ever.

the author confused "powerful" with "lethalality". What is being addressed here may not be totaly rational, as in the case of banning items that look more dangerous than others, clearly this is foolish on its face but it may not be upon further examination. That a bolt action rifle is more "powerful" than a semi-automatic weapon with a far greater capacity is not the point. The point is the ability of the shooter to get off many more rounds before having to stop (however long that pause may be) before he can continue to do further damage. As is so often the case, this author makes the same logical mistakes so many other anti-gun control advocates make, confusing one issue with another in order to make a single point.

and- I get a kick out of this - - "This is simply irrational and therefore unconstitutional" - there is nothing that says - regardless of the author's assertions to the contrary, that rationality has any relationship with real world constitutionality. We can point to any number of irrational decisions by the court in their quest to determine constitutionality.
If you cut off everyone's dick, no men can rape. Then future abortions will get prevented too. Our children will finally grow up in a rape free society, where women's right over their own body is reality. Won't anyone ever think of the children?
 

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
The OP is the author and has overlooked nothing. The court must and will include rationality in heightened scrutiny of government's attempt to suppress a fundamental right. The gun grabbers want to pretend Heller meant nothing but they are wrong. Again, they know this can't pass so there is no concern for whether it could pass court muster. It is a pure political ploy, and probably a blunder in that it will hurt democrat candidates in 14 more than help them.

ps lol @ "easing a new law into society"
Why not "to ease this in, it will only apply to white people?"

pps If you want a concept that has no relation to constitutionality, try "need." We hear that bandied about all the time. We don't "nned" semi auto rifles. We don't "need" 30 rd mags. But illegal aliens do "need" drivers licenses, and free education and healthcare. And women "need" abortions. And blacks "need" affirmative action. None of those are fundamental rights.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
well, holy shit. the righties have discovered the 14th amendment! they finally have some use for that otherwise pesky equal protection clause! hallelujah!

despite this, our butthurt little friend illegal smile still has to take some racist jabs at the end of the above post, ignoring the fact that illegals live here and pay property taxes. many of them don't have children, either.

the illegals are paying for your kid's education, actually.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I give up, where is it?
women just walk around looking for chances to have abortions. illegals don't come here to work and somehow live in property tax free locales, they just mooch handouts. black people too. they just take all the college from the more deserving white people.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
until they start acting like they have rights and freedoms, that is.

otherwise you'd control every single pregnancy in the united states if you could.
How it should be. If said woman can't take care of her body properly and harms her unborn, steps need be taken. Or you become a capitalist now? Hey if she wants to buy alcohol and the proprietor knows she's pregnant , it's his right to sell it to her.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
How it should be. If said woman can't take care of her body properly and harms her unborn, steps need be taken. Or you become a capitalist now? Hey if she wants to buy alcohol and the proprietor knows she's pregnant , it's his right to sell it to her.
because pregnant women could NEVER gain access to alcohol otherwise, right?

:dunce:

we'll need an ankle bracelet for every pregnant woman in america while we're at it. program them to alarm if the woman approaches any uneven sidewalks of tall staircases.

the christian taliban is alive and well here in america.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The OP is the author and has overlooked nothing. The court must and will include rationality in heightened scrutiny of government's attempt to suppress a fundamental right. The gun grabbers want to pretend Heller meant nothing but they are wrong. Again, they know this can't pass so there is no concern for whether it could pass court muster. It is a pure political ploy, and probably a blunder in that it will hurt democrat candidates in 14 more than help them.

ps lol @ "easing a new law into society"
Why not "to ease this in, it will only apply to white people?"

pps If you want a concept that has no relation to constitutionality, try "need." We hear that bandied about all the time. We don't "nned" semi auto rifles. We don't "need" 30 rd mags. But illegal aliens do "need" drivers licenses, and free education and healthcare. And women "need" abortions. And blacks "need" affirmative action. None of those are fundamental rights.

Look around and you may find my treatment of "need" in this country. Here at the very least we agree, need has no place as a measurement of legality. I cannot measure your need for a certain item nor can you measure mine. If semi-automatics were to be banned it should never be based upon governmental judgement on the lack of "need" for such a weapon. It is either constitutionaly justified or it is not. We see this in cases where folks can and often do adequetly justify a "need" for medical marijuana and that argument is swiftly thrown out of Federal Court on the basis of the "fact" that there is no such legal thing as "medical" marijuana (
even though the Fed has already acknowleged that such a thing DOES exist and still ships pot to a small number of "patients" - but you know all this I am sure.


But what you are doing is confusing entitlement with need - the question is not if illegals "need" driver's licenses and the like but whether or not they are entitled to them. A slightly different situation is your claiming that perhaps women "need" abortion. The question has always been, is abortion among women's rights as described in the Consitution. I believe that Roe was poorly determined but the conclusion was adequate to the situation - not the point here though.

Now the question is - what IS a "fundamental right" when it comes to firearms - are 30 round magazines a fundamental right? and if so how would you argue that?


Congrats on your article - forgive me for presuming you must not have written it solely on the basis of presentation.

So far as you overlooking nothing - well, we shall see, I suspect otherwise and stand by my statements. I have problems with the term "gun grabbers" as surely you have with gun nuts, gun toters and the like - it tends to taint the conversation. I read few advocates of total gun bans and suppose from that that we are in little danger from "gun grabbers".

What you say about Dems being hurt in 14 only applies if we have few, or poorly publicized mass shootings between now and then - unfortunately unlikely.

We both know that your race related comment has little relevance to grandfather law and the "easing" in of laws is an old and well established concept. As I said previously it has little to do with the efficiency of one weapon over another and parity between LEOs and ordinary citizens.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
How it should be. If said woman can't take care of her body properly and harms her unborn, steps need be taken. Or you become a capitalist now? Hey if she wants to buy alcohol and the proprietor knows she's pregnant , it's his right to sell it to her.
So too then, if a person is unable to control their consumption of sugary drinks, of salty, fatty foods, and beyond that if they are unable to control their progeny in their inability to curtail consumption, the government should step in. Especialy when it comes to national security.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
So too then, if a person is unable to control their consumption of sugary drinks, of salty, fatty foods, and beyond that if they are unable to control their progeny in their inability to curtail consumption, the government should step in. Especialy when it comes to national security.
I wouldn't be against it if it was proven, like with cigarettes or alcohol, to harm that parasite and prevent proper development. I could care less what adults want to do. Your parasite can't say no.
 
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