Just thought I'd drop in as I keep my moms in a hpa setup. I have perpetual sog hpa setup. They do grow fast but are super healthy and clones root in 5-7 days. My entire setup is hpa, cloners, moms and flower tent. I thought it best to have they same conditions for all phases of growth. I use 35 gal totes, 4-6 moms per tote and 12 for flower. Moms can grow fast but just keep picking the best clones and cyle them through. Usually have 3 full moms and 3 replacements going at the same time. Still tweaking but slowly getting things dialed in which is the fun part.
True HP Aero For 2011
- Thread starter Trichy Bastard
- Start date
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Thanks for chiming in! So how did you come across HPA, and could you describe your HPA system in some detail if you don't mind?
Hello TB,
No I don't mind at all. My setup is a combination of three threads that captured my interest. Cavadges thread on HPA Aero, AL. B. Funct perpetual SOG and Fatmans info on 3-1-2/3-1-4 for Veg/Flower nutrients. My system Aquatech pump, pressure reg set at 80psi, pressure switch 85-100 and a 1L Jabsco accumulator. I orginally tried just using six nozzles top mounted but did not have enough coverage. I now use six nozzles on top and six on the side in 35 Gal totes 12 plants per tote. That's 3 plants/sqft. The plant totes have a tote inside a tote. The first tote has silk screen bottom and the second tote as a standard hydro drain. Cycle times 1 to 1.5 minute off .7 to 1.2 seconds on. I found the 1ml per 100L not enough volume of nutrients to get good yield although it does make the roots look good. 30 gal res is coleman cooler and the plant totes drain into a condesant pump which dumps into a 35 gallon holding tote. I pump the holding tote out as needed. Res sits above the drain tote for easy res cleaning.
I started all this about three years ago as a complete newbie, never grown anything. I got all the parts and got my moms up and going and started my first flower cycle but 2 weeks into flower I had to take everything down. Finally last year got a better location and started up about six months ago. It's still a work in progress especially the cloners. I had them pretty well dialed in and changed the totes so I could get more clones 30 per instead of 12 and haven't exactly got things adjusted to the bigger volume. Thanks for your thread I've read it many times and has lots of information that has been very helpful.
nuggly
No I don't mind at all. My setup is a combination of three threads that captured my interest. Cavadges thread on HPA Aero, AL. B. Funct perpetual SOG and Fatmans info on 3-1-2/3-1-4 for Veg/Flower nutrients. My system Aquatech pump, pressure reg set at 80psi, pressure switch 85-100 and a 1L Jabsco accumulator. I orginally tried just using six nozzles top mounted but did not have enough coverage. I now use six nozzles on top and six on the side in 35 Gal totes 12 plants per tote. That's 3 plants/sqft. The plant totes have a tote inside a tote. The first tote has silk screen bottom and the second tote as a standard hydro drain. Cycle times 1 to 1.5 minute off .7 to 1.2 seconds on. I found the 1ml per 100L not enough volume of nutrients to get good yield although it does make the roots look good. 30 gal res is coleman cooler and the plant totes drain into a condesant pump which dumps into a 35 gallon holding tote. I pump the holding tote out as needed. Res sits above the drain tote for easy res cleaning.
I started all this about three years ago as a complete newbie, never grown anything. I got all the parts and got my moms up and going and started my first flower cycle but 2 weeks into flower I had to take everything down. Finally last year got a better location and started up about six months ago. It's still a work in progress especially the cloners. I had them pretty well dialed in and changed the totes so I could get more clones 30 per instead of 12 and haven't exactly got things adjusted to the bigger volume. Thanks for your thread I've read it many times and has lots of information that has been very helpful.
nuggly
Attachments
Cloners - The one on top is my stardard cloner with aquatech 6800. The bottom cloner also has aquatech 6800 but I added some RDWC action to see how it would work. Cavadge mentioned this and I notice it as well that growth takes off once the clone roots hit the water. Well I also notice that they go crazy for about 10 days and then stall after 2 weeks. My strain does not stretch much so I was trying to get my clones to 14" in the cloner. So I took the info from Heath Robinsons thread on fast moving RWDC and made a super vegging cloner. This is the first batch in the new cloner but so far it looks promising.
nuggly
nuggly
Flower setup - little messy as I am redoing my day/night timers. The flower tote on the far left had a solenoid issue. Decided to reveg the ones that survived and they are the wierdest looking things. Didn't turned out the plants were really fluffy so I just kiefed the whole tote but it was an interesting experiment. The flower tent 4x8 is sealed co2 with dehumidifier water cooled super sun II X 2 super HPS. The close up plants are not the reveg's ones but the plants from my latest harvest DP Brainstorm (aka Hempstar - NL X Haze). Tent can hold 6 totes one timer for each tote and 2 timers for night settings - three totes per night timer. The Iponic switches timers from day/night.
Perfect timing would be 10 day to two week cycle. Perpetual SOG has some interesting challenges and it's ballet of getting clones, moms and flowering plants all on the same cycle while balancing enviroment, nutrient and light demands of plants in different phases. My challenge has been not having enough clones to keep the flower tent full. Working on two more cloners so I can have enough clones going at a time to stay ahead of the game. It will allow me to pick the best clones of the same size to have good harvest and uniform canopy.
nuggly
Perfect timing would be 10 day to two week cycle. Perpetual SOG has some interesting challenges and it's ballet of getting clones, moms and flowering plants all on the same cycle while balancing enviroment, nutrient and light demands of plants in different phases. My challenge has been not having enough clones to keep the flower tent full. Working on two more cloners so I can have enough clones going at a time to stay ahead of the game. It will allow me to pick the best clones of the same size to have good harvest and uniform canopy.
nuggly
I'm using the echotechs off ebay. I was using the stainless DC powered ones but I'm now switching the AC plastic solenoids. The DC solenoid were hanging and causing issues because I was using a 19V power supply. It was one of the temp fixes that stayed to long because it was working. The AC solenoid I have on the mom tote been working flawlessly for 9 months. I find AC solenoids easier no power supply issues. I use a APC battery Backup for both the timers, solenoid and pump incase of power failure.
First four harvests I got .58-.68oz/plant. It's been much better the last two harvests have been .9 and 1.05oz/plant. 10.87 and 12.70 oz total. The flower tent has two lights and six totes so I consider one tote 1/3 of a light. if you take the yield and multiple by 3 it's equivilent to a gram/watt. My goal was to get to .75 gram per watt so I was happy to exceed my goal. Brainstorm (Hempstar) not know as heavy yielder as it's stavia dominant hybrid. Growing out the clone to 14" and having roots that hang at least 3/4 into the tote make a huge difference. I found having 10-25% runnoff helps with yield. Yes your roots don't look as nice and are less efficient but your only feeding the outer layer of roots if you dial it in with no runoff. That's why I have a timer for each tote. The roots do really well and I try to keep the misting cycles as short as I can. Last 3-4 weeks I keep raising the misting times while plant is bulking at the end of flower get 20% runoff.
Also Notice the Aptus bottles in the root picture? It's as good as they say. Orignally I was feeding just 3-1-4 mix of GH using the nutrient spreadsheet calculator. I got the Aptus beliver pack and it was an obvious improvement. I use only Faciliator, massboost and finale boost the other products says not to leave in res for bio-film build up. I know Aptus is not meant to be used with hydro but it does work. It got rid of my calcium lockout issue and I can run a higher ppm without burn. I run 560-700 for flower. I use to get burn at anything over 500.
Now the down side, beneficial bacteria. I don't know what's in Aptus but it creates a light brown film in my res and the PH fluctuates alot! I know, I got into HPA for the DTW setup and no messing with PH. However I got 30% increase in yield since I switched to Aptus so I really don't mind and I have not had any issues yet with nozzles clogging. So my flower nutrient profile is custom mix of GH Gro, Micro, Liquid kool bloom 3-1-4 with cal mag+ (CA 80% of N), Diamond Nectar, sm-90 and Aptus, Co2 at 1000ppm, 86F, 35% RH.
nuggly
First four harvests I got .58-.68oz/plant. It's been much better the last two harvests have been .9 and 1.05oz/plant. 10.87 and 12.70 oz total. The flower tent has two lights and six totes so I consider one tote 1/3 of a light. if you take the yield and multiple by 3 it's equivilent to a gram/watt. My goal was to get to .75 gram per watt so I was happy to exceed my goal. Brainstorm (Hempstar) not know as heavy yielder as it's stavia dominant hybrid. Growing out the clone to 14" and having roots that hang at least 3/4 into the tote make a huge difference. I found having 10-25% runnoff helps with yield. Yes your roots don't look as nice and are less efficient but your only feeding the outer layer of roots if you dial it in with no runoff. That's why I have a timer for each tote. The roots do really well and I try to keep the misting cycles as short as I can. Last 3-4 weeks I keep raising the misting times while plant is bulking at the end of flower get 20% runoff.
Also Notice the Aptus bottles in the root picture? It's as good as they say. Orignally I was feeding just 3-1-4 mix of GH using the nutrient spreadsheet calculator. I got the Aptus beliver pack and it was an obvious improvement. I use only Faciliator, massboost and finale boost the other products says not to leave in res for bio-film build up. I know Aptus is not meant to be used with hydro but it does work. It got rid of my calcium lockout issue and I can run a higher ppm without burn. I run 560-700 for flower. I use to get burn at anything over 500.
Now the down side, beneficial bacteria. I don't know what's in Aptus but it creates a light brown film in my res and the PH fluctuates alot! I know, I got into HPA for the DTW setup and no messing with PH. However I got 30% increase in yield since I switched to Aptus so I really don't mind and I have not had any issues yet with nozzles clogging. So my flower nutrient profile is custom mix of GH Gro, Micro, Liquid kool bloom 3-1-4 with cal mag+ (CA 80% of N), Diamond Nectar, sm-90 and Aptus, Co2 at 1000ppm, 86F, 35% RH.
nuggly
damn dude sounds like were on the same page
i have a working air atomizing set up (i just turned it on for the first time yesterday) , and a cavadge style cloner such as your self.
im also curently working on a hp set up using a 4x4x18 table and biocontrol nozzles, have you tryed them?
have you ever thought about using a single large chamber instead of multiple small chambers,this wouldnt allow you to use as much side misthing as
you seem to be set on.
also you say you noticed the super short misting cycles and fine root hair damaged your yeilds. thats a shame ive heard that from 3 people now that have in my opionion
been successful
3 years huh ive been going hard for 6 months. i hope you stick around im about to post a bunch or pictures of all my stuff
i have a working air atomizing set up (i just turned it on for the first time yesterday) , and a cavadge style cloner such as your self.
im also curently working on a hp set up using a 4x4x18 table and biocontrol nozzles, have you tryed them?
have you ever thought about using a single large chamber instead of multiple small chambers,this wouldnt allow you to use as much side misthing as
you seem to be set on.
also you say you noticed the super short misting cycles and fine root hair damaged your yeilds. thats a shame ive heard that from 3 people now that have in my opionion
been successful
3 years huh ive been going hard for 6 months. i hope you stick around im about to post a bunch or pictures of all my stuff
I think the air atomized has advantages. Cavadge recomended putting airpump line in the grow chambers and cloner as the roots do need oxygen. The Air atomized should have better mist control and better oxygen supply. I'm looking forward to seeing your setup.
I have not tried the biocontrols but have been looking to change nozzles out to impingment style. You can get chinese solenoids for about the same price as JG fittings if you buy in bulk, one solenoid for each nozzles. The last bach of tefen reds I got seemed to clog or have issues with the check values. This was before using Aptus I was using bleach and had a sterlie rez but still had failed red nozzles. I soaked them for a few days in Grunge off and they seem to be working fine now.
About misting times, my HPA/RDWC cloner is prototype for my next grow chamber, HPA on top and RDWC on bottom. I will shorten the misting times and get perfect roots and increase oxygen supply with HPA and have RDWC for adding yield. The Plan is to be able to get quality and yield with a hybrid design.
I have not tried the biocontrols but have been looking to change nozzles out to impingment style. You can get chinese solenoids for about the same price as JG fittings if you buy in bulk, one solenoid for each nozzles. The last bach of tefen reds I got seemed to clog or have issues with the check values. This was before using Aptus I was using bleach and had a sterlie rez but still had failed red nozzles. I soaked them for a few days in Grunge off and they seem to be working fine now.
About misting times, my HPA/RDWC cloner is prototype for my next grow chamber, HPA on top and RDWC on bottom. I will shorten the misting times and get perfect roots and increase oxygen supply with HPA and have RDWC for adding yield. The Plan is to be able to get quality and yield with a hybrid design.
Mike Young
Well-Known Member
Very nice work there, nuggly! I too plan to build a HPA on top, RDWC on bottom setup. Trying my hand at straight RDWC for now. Messing with the PH constantly is quite the pain. This bush should be finished in 10-15 days. I hope you start a thread on your hybrid setup.
Hey Mike,
Glad to hear someone else is working on hybrid setup. What's your time table, going to start soon? I never thought I'd tell a guy this but I like your bush! LOL! Are you documenting your hybrid setup? How bad is your ph flucuations? I know we get spoiled running sterile HPA DTW setup, ph will stay stabile for weeks. Since I started using Aptus I check mine twice a day, first thing in the morning and first thing when I get home, uuhh and again before bed. I would check anyway just cause you never know what could break/fail/leak/overheat anyway. Using a res chiller? I'd think if you used pro-tek silica, it works great as a ph buffer and a res chiller it would slow down the swing.
Funny you mention PH because I was wondering if having a changing ph swing is actually better for the plants? First what is the perfect ph? second I have three PH meters and they don't always show the same value. third I wonder if part of the reason I get better yields with the Aptus is because of the ph swings. I thought part of the advantage of HPA DTW was always having a perfect PH but in practice I never really found that to be true. My current plants like 6.5ish for flower, swings from 6.2 to 6.8 that's kinda high but I just do what the plants tell me.
Glad to hear someone else is working on hybrid setup. What's your time table, going to start soon? I never thought I'd tell a guy this but I like your bush! LOL! Are you documenting your hybrid setup? How bad is your ph flucuations? I know we get spoiled running sterile HPA DTW setup, ph will stay stabile for weeks. Since I started using Aptus I check mine twice a day, first thing in the morning and first thing when I get home, uuhh and again before bed. I would check anyway just cause you never know what could break/fail/leak/overheat anyway. Using a res chiller? I'd think if you used pro-tek silica, it works great as a ph buffer and a res chiller it would slow down the swing.
Funny you mention PH because I was wondering if having a changing ph swing is actually better for the plants? First what is the perfect ph? second I have three PH meters and they don't always show the same value. third I wonder if part of the reason I get better yields with the Aptus is because of the ph swings. I thought part of the advantage of HPA DTW was always having a perfect PH but in practice I never really found that to be true. My current plants like 6.5ish for flower, swings from 6.2 to 6.8 that's kinda high but I just do what the plants tell me.
jamesvagabond
Well-Known Member
Hmm, makes me want to experiment with a pH controller relay to be set to allow a certain range of pH swing, letting it go from low to high to low back and forth, without letting it go past goldilocks lane.
Mike Young
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna get through this grow and try & get something going shortly after. I'm thinking a shallow RDWC with nozzles running a seperate res, pointing down from the top. From what i understand the upper roots are the ones designed for max oxygen uptake.
Yeah, it's a decent bush considering it's a bean from a hermie. Don't ask me why, I just like a challenge I guess. No nanners yet! I also had my light a little too close for awhile there. I don't run a chiller, but in the winter months I can locate my res outside of the room keeping things nice & cool. My PH problems I believe stem from the fact that I'm using my well water instead of RO this time around. Was hoping to benefit from trace elements. I believe that depending on how much it rains, the water table coming up & down affects the mineral content. The PH would drop a whole digit in 24 hrs. I never had a reason for PH up until this run. In the past, if I needed to raise PH I would just use silica. Since introducing P/K booster I really haven't had any issues. If it's between 5.8-6-4, I don't mess with it.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Hey nuggly- glad the info has been helpful to you. The formula is just a guideline for people to start to understand how efficient hpa is and approximate their build design from but as always- reading your plants is king. As long as your roots have the hairs then they should be enjoying all the benefits of true aero. Do you always recirc or just in the beginning stages? One of my favorite aspects of hp is the drain-to-waste aspect...
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Nuggly... you have all the components to have full hp roots ... However yours are falling short and I can make a recommendation you will come to appreciate... Your root chambers are too small and overcrowded. That's why your roots aren't white and fuzzy and your using much more water... Build bigger chambers with less crowding and switch to the bio-control nozzles and I bet you'll be really impressed when you start seeing the full benefits of hpa...
Right now your roots are looking like Cavadges and they can be even better...Hey TB,
No recirc at all my setup is dtw, just the new cloner is recirculating as I wanted to see how RDWC works. Clones get 45ish days in the cloner, although I must say the new RWDC cloner is about a week ahead of my last batch. Yes the root chamber is too small for mother plants. I currently have 6 plants in there as I'm waiting for cloner space. I plan on taking clones and chopping the three largest and have more root room for the three replacements. That is a problem with HPA the moms grow so fast they get root bound quickly. I only have so much space, I did pick some slightly large totes but have not switched them out yet.
As far as full HP roots I mentioned in my posts I had my flower totes dialed in and gave impressive roots but I did not get impressive yeilds. What benefits have you seen from having full HP roots?
No recirc at all my setup is dtw, just the new cloner is recirculating as I wanted to see how RDWC works. Clones get 45ish days in the cloner, although I must say the new RWDC cloner is about a week ahead of my last batch. Yes the root chamber is too small for mother plants. I currently have 6 plants in there as I'm waiting for cloner space. I plan on taking clones and chopping the three largest and have more root room for the three replacements. That is a problem with HPA the moms grow so fast they get root bound quickly. I only have so much space, I did pick some slightly large totes but have not switched them out yet.
As far as full HP roots I mentioned in my posts I had my flower totes dialed in and gave impressive roots but I did not get impressive yeilds. What benefits have you seen from having full HP roots?
Hey TB,
I had a question about the biocontrols, do you use any sort on check valve for drip control? I'm looking at some inpingment style nozzle similar to the biocontrols but I would need a solenoid for each nozzle. I have 6 totes in my tent and lots of poly tubing. the runoof after a spray cycle can be substantial.
nuggly
I had a question about the biocontrols, do you use any sort on check valve for drip control? I'm looking at some inpingment style nozzle similar to the biocontrols but I would need a solenoid for each nozzle. I have 6 totes in my tent and lots of poly tubing. the runoof after a spray cycle can be substantial.
nuggly
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
If you look at a ph nutrient availability chart, I believe 5.8ph allows all of the nutrients to be available. Sometimes a slightly fluctuating ph helps rotate some into availability and some out, but when having a set ph such as dtw, for hydro and aero, 5.8 is pretty much the target. In soils, apparently 6.0 is the target... And I second that the protekt silica makes an excellent rock solid ph buffer, especially when used in conjunction with the dyna-gro veg and flower products.
All that being said, making sure your probe is properly calibrated is important, and definitely have seen some strains preferring different ph's by a few points. Mantra of reading plants always applies...
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Do you have any rootshots so I can make sure we are on the same page, as full-on hp roots are tough to achieve for most people until they understand hat they are doing and what to look for... Once you have em, the root surface area is enhanced thousands of times and a non linear (not thousands of times more efficient) yet impressive root efficiency is achieved where the plants uptake much more and therefore you can dialback your water amounts as well as your EC levels- otherwise burning will occur at relatively low EC levels... You probably won't be going over 800ppm on the .7 scale even at the peak of flower if your roots are proper HP hairy roots. Atomizer once explained that part of the lesser EC in HPA is due to the larger surface area to mass ratio of the droplets causes quite a bit of evaporation of the droplets so they are more concentrated once striking the roots which made sense to me. Anyway, the roots are so good at absorbing all of the mist that you will have very little runoff, so little- that a rootflushing is mandated about once per week with pure r.o. water until the runoff measure shows most of the salts have been washed away. Yes, the drenching will kill off the roothairs, but they come back within 1-2 days if everything is dialed in properly. Measuring the runoff is an important tool in HP, as you can tell how much the plants are taking in versus what your initial EC is, as well as if the rootzone is becoming saturated with concentrating salts and in need of a flush to keep sustained vigorous growth.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
No checkvalve if you want the full hp roots- it's more than just drip control as I will explain... The best way is to have a solenoid per nozzle, and the solenoid as close to nozzle as possible. It is a bit of an investment, however, you cannot likely achieve hp-roots without this as the pressure ramp up/ramp down during then spray cycle (due to JG/PEX line expansion/contraction) causes larger droplets to throw out at the lower pressures at each end of the cycle and the large droplets engulf all your 30-80micron drops and effectively cancel them out so that you will be achieving LP-aero with all your fancy hp gear. You can incorporate a check valve to mitigate some of the pressure issues, however no checkvalve has the same cracking and closing pressure, and therefore only a solenoid can yield the perfect results. Again, Atomizer once put it- "it's like throwing a bucket of paint on a canvas, airbrushing a masterpiece, then tossing another bucket of paint over the canvas"... Get the visual?
It's worth mentioning again that the bios tend to have 1 or 2 out of every ten that are duds (they will exchange them for free however), and the rest have mostly imperfect spray patterns when compared to eachother. However, fret not-they still grow the best roots with their droplet size, spray pattern, and excellent throw. Every person using the red cloudtops and other similar nozzles have all had the same issue of the roots making a large ball that eventually chokes itself off, whereas the bios seem to make longer flowing roots that go to the bottom of the chamber and then climb up the walls, filling the chambers in a nice even spread out manner.
You are much better off with less chambers, having more volume each, as the mist really needs the room to spread out and disperse before striking the walls. Cavadge's 3 issues were those small buckets, not using enough solenoids, and the type of nozzles he used. I recommend taking all of his excellent building advice and explanation of the components, but then understanding the couple drawbacks to his designs and doing better on them...