Just finished our tax returns

[canndo]

So in order to get the goods you desire, you are saying you must fund undesirable and horrible things too? When people say that is just the way it works, they mean that is the way it functions. "Works" implies functioning properly. The present system seems dis functional at best to me, if a person must fund bad things he doesn't want to.

Mary Ruart called...she said you haven't read her book yet.

Nope, it is growing closer Just finished Stockman's book.

 

[Saltrock]

I feel like some of the people that don't want to be forced to pay taxes are the same people who don't want to be forced to pay for healthcare. So now not only do I have to pay for a portion of your medical bills , I have to pay for a portion of the roads that you drive on. Also I will pay for a bigger portion to cops, teachers, firefighters that makes our society the best and that you use. Canndo is right, go live somewhere else. If you don't want to contribute to society, then leave. It's like saying I want to live in a beautiful condo, but I don't want to pay HOA's. You pay HOA and in return you have maintained streets, nice landscaping, maintenance of the overall property, also some onsite security. You want to live in a beautiful country you have to pay HOA's(figuratively speaking).

Peace
Salt

 

[canndo]

I feel like some of the people that don't want to be forced to pay taxes are the same people who don't want to be forced to pay for healthcare. So now not only do I have to pay for a portion of your medical bills , I have to pay for a portion of the roads that you drive on. Also I will pay for a bigger portion to cops, teachers, firefighters that makes our society the best and that you use. Canndo is right, go live somewhere else. If you don't want to contribute to society, then leave. It's like saying I want to live in a beautiful condo, but I don't want to pay HOA's. You pay HOA and in return you have maintained streets, nice landscaping, maintenance of the overall property, also some onsite security. You want to live in a beautiful country you have to pay HOA's(figuratively speaking).


Peace
Salt

Hang on, I never ever invite anyone to leave this country except illegal inhabitants. I presume that Rob is not an illegal. I simply asked why, if he does not enjoy the majority of things that his - yes - forced "contribution" brings him does he not go somewhere where this balance is more in his favor? Now it really isn't always right even to ask that because it is possible that places that are more amenable to his notions of "fairness" will not accept him - or anyone. But being born here offers (ideally) all of the benefits this country has to offer and it exacts payment for those benefits. Not all people get the totality of reward for what is extracted from them. Most do, the finest quality of this country is that those who do not feel they are getting their money's worth are allowed to leave, no harm no foul.

What I gather Rob is saying is that he was never afforded the CHOICE to live in this condo, receive the rewards - and pay the fee. It is this choice that it seems he wants - with regard to condos, he could as easily live down the street, in a shack, in a fine house, whatever - but what he wants is the ability to make a free bargain between himself and the condo cooperative.

But I am saying that indeed he WAS given that choice. He may freely opt not to tolerate the exchange so in reality he is not in the situation he maintains. The only other way it could conceiveably work is if he were born in the ocean somewhere, raised to a certain age and then given the charters and history and social aspects of every country on earth where he would be afforded the ability to become a citizen.

 

[canndo]

I feel like some of the people that don't want to be forced to pay taxes are the same people who don't want to be forced to pay for healthcare. So now not only do I have to pay for a portion of your medical bills , I have to pay for a portion of the roads that you drive on. Also I will pay for a bigger portion to cops, teachers, firefighters that makes our society the best and that you use. Canndo is right, go live somewhere else. If you don't want to contribute to society, then leave. It's like saying I want to live in a beautiful condo, but I don't want to pay HOA's. You pay HOA and in return you have maintained streets, nice landscaping, maintenance of the overall property, also some onsite security. You want to live in a beautiful country you have to pay HOA's(figuratively speaking).




Peace
Salt

He is also saying that he does not like the uses to which all of his HOA dues go. I am an officer of an HOA and I see that at every meeting. "we don't want fruit trees in the common area becuase they draw rats [they don't]" "people will look in at us while they pick the fruit" etc.



Seems Rob doe not believe in the commons, that everything should be "owned" by some one or some group. This presuposes that everything CAN be owned or that mankind is capable of such ownership and thus stewardship of everything around him.

We have shown over and over again that we are not capable of such ownership.

 

[Rob Roy]

I feel like some of the people that don't want to be forced to pay taxes are the same people who don't want to be forced to pay for healthcare. So now not only do I have to pay for a portion of your medical bills , I have to pay for a portion of the roads that you drive on. Also I will pay for a bigger portion to cops, teachers, firefighters that makes our society the best and that you use. Canndo is right, go live somewhere else. If you don't want to contribute to society, then leave. It's like saying I want to live in a beautiful condo, but I don't want to pay HOA's. You pay HOA and in return you have maintained streets, nice landscaping, maintenance of the overall property, also some onsite security. You want to live in a beautiful country you have to pay HOA's(figuratively speaking).

Peace
Salt

In the current paradigm, separating goods and services from bads and disservices is disallowed by those in power....ever wonder why?

By the way a HOA is fine, it differs from "government" in that you can decide if you want to belong. Your consent to the rules is a willful act in an HOA. I agree that people should pay for that which they use, but not be forced to pay for that which they don't use. Please don't imply or try to state that I am a free loader.

Government's monopoly has unintended consequences, since most people wouldn't kill people they don't know or wish to fund it. Yet, the payments that are extracted from you fund those acts don't they?

 

[canndo]

In the current paradigm, separating goods and services from bads and disservices is disallowed by those in power....ever wonder why?

i


See, that's a very clever response but unfortunately it has no clarity. The single service the government provides to a generaly satisfactory degree is order. the left imagines a paradigm - one of ultimate social justice and then attempts to move us to that ideal by way of government intervention. The left presumes that one day, through government help we will "arrive" at a perfect place, they believe that it is not within man's nature to move to that place uncoherced. The right perpetually believes that we have arrived.

They constantly believe that the status quo is perfect as it is, when the left moves us closer to their definition of perfection the right simply absorbs that move as though it never happened. They see any change as straying from the already perfect place we either are in now or once were in. The right wishes for a time that in reality never existed, the left yearns for a place that cannot exist.


Libertarians on the other hand, attribute qualities to mankind that he does not have, never had and will likely never attain. They believe that all of man's foibles can be balanced out by the other components of their nature. They are wrong as well.

 

[Rob Roy]

i


See, that's a very clever response but unfortunately it has no clarity. The single service the government provides to a generaly satisfactory degree is order. the left imagines a paradigm - one of ultimate social justice and then attempts to move us to that ideal by way of government intervention. The left presumes that one day, through government help we will "arrive" at a perfect place, they believe that it is not within man's nature to move to that place uncoherced. The right perpetually believes that we have arrived.

They constantly believe that the status quo is perfect as it is, when the left moves us closer to their definition of perfection the right simply absorbs that move as though it never happened. They see any change as straying from the already perfect place we either are in now or once were in. The right wishes for a time that in reality never existed, the left yearns for a place that cannot exist.


Libertarians on the other hand, attribute qualities to mankind that he does not have, never had and will likely never attain. They believe that all of man's foibles can be balanced out by the other components of their nature. They are wrong as well.

Hitler provided order. Mussolini made the trains run on time. The United States has the highest prison population....should I continue ?

 

[canndo]

Hitler provided order. Mussolini made the trains run on time. The United States has the highest prison population....should I continue ?

Continue all you wish, what you are doing is proving my point. I never ever said that the complement of order in any country was good or bad, I said that was the first duty of government. I have made this point many times here and with you, you always tend to claim that because you don't agree with the methods employed in providing order that the order itself is somehow bad. 9/11 was a disruption in order and we insisted that order be restored by any means possible including going out and killing people that didn't have anything to do with 9/11. We demand that government DO something about the breach in order that Newtown represents, the order that is disrupted when the price of gas goes up or employment goes down. There are many ways to instill order, some more savory than others, that does not make my statement any less correct.


Now you can be in a country that instills order at great cost to the people it "serves". Or you can agree that in the grand scheme, this country provides order with the least infringement of civil liberty. You seem to believe that people will be able to enforce order among themselves by employing human traits such as greed and rationality and concern for their fellow citizens and their fellow human beings. However, the fact that we are humans precludes long periods of order in a society and your understanding of man's true motivations does not seem to match up very well with reality.

 

[Rob Roy]

Coercive measures that provide order = might makes right, which is facially inaccurate. Might or majority cannot make something "right", if it is morally wrong to begin with. In that instance the correct thing to do is to reject that kind of order rather than fund it or embrace it thru fear.

 

[ChesusRice]

Hitler provided order. Mussolini made the trains run on time. The United States has the highest prison population....should I continue ?

Somalia has a small goverment and a free market

Move there

 

[Mr Neutron]

Ches has no direct say in the matter of how his contribution is used, in the overall, it is used for neutral or good more than it is used for "bad".

Even if your opinion were true... is that supposed to make it right?

 

[Mr Neutron]

I've said it before - There is nothing stopping you from refraining from paying your taxes, you need only renounce your citizenship and move to a place that more suits your standards - that makes this an ultimately free society. So yes, it is a contribution in return for your being able to stay here.

This means he has absolute and full recourse to his current situation, Now I am not inviting you to leave, I am simply pointing out that you do have an option and are not forced in any way to stay and in so staying become obligated to "contribute".

Now I have said it before as well, the price of admission to this particular zoo is $15 bucks, you don't get to pay ten claiming that you don't like zebras.

Zoo? What an apt analogy.

Well, let me correct your analogy. You aren't paying to visit the zoo, you were born in the zoo and you are forced to give up what is yours because the zookeepers are are corrupt.

 

[Mr Neutron]

How I "like" transactions has no bearing on the necessity of my making them, "like" is a frivolity, an indulgence, a nugget of chocolate, a refreshment. Anyone who is governed by like has little business in ... business. We all do distasteful things in the interest of our goals.

"that's just the way it is", is, unfortunately eminating from a person who does his best to see things "the way they are". I would certainly entertain a change, I would love for my money all to go to the NEA - ALL of it, every year, now, can tell me a way to make this so?

You can donate all you want to anybody you want.

 

[Mr Neutron]

I feel like some of the people that don't want to be forced to pay taxes are the same people who don't want to be forced to pay for healthcare. So now not only do I have to pay for a portion of your medical bills , I have to pay for a portion of the roads that you drive on. Also I will pay for a bigger portion to cops, teachers, firefighters that makes our society the best and that you use. Canndo is right, go live somewhere else. If you don't want to contribute to society, then leave. It's like saying I want to live in a beautiful condo, but I don't want to pay HOA's. You pay HOA and in return you have maintained streets, nice landscaping, maintenance of the overall property, also some onsite security. You want to live in a beautiful country you have to pay HOA's(figuratively speaking).

Peace
Salt

Condos and HOAs? How many other countries did you look at before deciding to live in the US?

If you read my post, you know I was talking about income taxes. Not gasoline taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, tariffs, etc.

I live in Mexico. What do I get for my income taxes paid?

Now there are 3 of you saying "Amerika, love it or leave it". I'll bet you listen to Merle Haggard all day long, too.

 

[Mr Neutron]

He is also saying that he does not like the uses to which all of his HOA dues go. I am an officer of an HOA and I see that at every meeting. "we don't want fruit trees in the common area becuase they draw rats [they don't]" "people will look in at us while they pick the fruit" etc.



Seems Rob doe not believe in the commons, that everything should be "owned" by some one or some group. This presuposes that everything CAN be owned or that mankind is capable of such ownership and thus stewardship of everything around him.

We have shown over and over again that we are not capable of such ownership.

What canndo is saying is, "if you live in my condo building, you must open up your financial records to him and pay whatever he decides is right."

 

[kpmarine]

Hitler provided order. Mussolini made the trains run on time. The United States has the highest prison population....should I continue ?

Hitler preached genocide, Mussolini was a fascist, and the US has it's problems all it's own. Our presidents don't have a history of not stepping down after their terms. You have provided two example of fascism and then jumped from there to a representative democracy without correlation. You can't relate Nazis and the US without some sort of reasonable correlation.

 

[kpmarine]

What canndo is saying is, "if you live in my condo building, you must open up your financial records to him and pay whatever he decides is right."

No, he's saying: "If you live in my condo building, you must do whatever it takes to keep property values maximized at the least cost to the HOA.". That's how all the HOA's in CA worked when we had contracts with them.

 

[Mr Neutron]

See, that's a very clever response but unfortunately it has no clarity. The single service the government provides to a generaly satisfactory degree is order. the left imagines a paradigm - one of ultimate social justice and then attempts to move us to that ideal by way of government intervention. The left presumes that one day, through government help we will "arrive" at a perfect place, they believe that it is not within man's nature to move to that place uncoherced.

Description of tyranny.

They constantly believe that the status quo is perfect as it is, when the left moves us closer to their definition of perfection the right simply absorbs that move as though it never happened. They see any change as straying from the already perfect place we either are in now or once were in. The right wishes for a time that in reality never existed, the left yearns for a place that cannot exist.

You're smoking crack again, aren't you?

Libertarians on the other hand, attribute qualities to mankind that he does not have, never had and will likely never attain. They believe that all of man's foibles can be balanced out by the other components of their nature. They are wrong as well.

Which Libertarian definition are you talking about? While we're on it, what is left, what is right?

 

[Mr Neutron]

Continue all you wish, what you are doing is proving my point. I never ever said that the complement of order in any country was good or bad, I said that was the first duty of government. I have made this point many times here and with you, you always tend to claim that because you don't agree with the methods employed in providing order that the order itself is somehow bad. 9/11 was a disruption in order and we insisted that order be restored by any means possible including going out and killing people that didn't have anything to do with 9/11. We demand that government DO something about the breach in order that Newtown represents, the order that is disrupted when the price of gas goes up or employment goes down. There are many ways to instill order, some more savory than others, that does not make my statement any less correct.


Now you can be in a country that instills order at great cost to the people it "serves". Or you can agree that in the grand scheme, this country provides order with the least infringement of civil liberty. You seem to believe that people will be able to enforce order among themselves by employing human traits such as greed and rationality and concern for their fellow citizens and their fellow human beings. However, the fact that we are humans precludes long periods of order in a society and your understanding of man's true motivations does not seem to match up very well with reality.

WOW! You're trying to defend a corrupt system with altruistic ideals.... but continue, it's hilarious.

 

[Mr Neutron]

Somalia has a small goverment and a free market

Move there

Until you start paying YOUR fair share... SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!