Noob Breeding Question, using hybrids as parents

[KronicUse]

Hey guys,

I have seeds from a couple breeders, obtained at the HTCC and I'm looking into making some hybrids with these guys.

Does it make a difference if you create hybrids using 'stable/inbred plants' or 'hybrid plants'

I ask this because I know that F2 generations express a wide variety of traits, different from its parents.
Also, F1 plants are most likely to be similar to its parents, and subsequent generations express more dormant traits resulting in a diverse gene pool
SO, if P1xP1=F1 =>resembles parents and F1xF1=F2 =>wide variety of traits, with only a few resembling the parents
which would imply that F2 generations have a lot of worthless genetics and you have to go thru a lot of seeds to find a keeper, whereas F1 generations will express traits found in the parents

Does this mean if you use Hybrid(F1) plants as parents, the resulting offspring be genetically diverse (more so than if you used stable parents)? or will they resemble their parents?
Or is it preferable to use stable/homogenous seeds as parents?


thanks!
i appreciate the advice

 

[moggggys]

well errr ok yeah , fuck it ill keep it simple

hybrid means a mix yeah ! you arnt sure how this will express itself in its f2 form based on recessive and positive geno`s , this also means that a hybrid is a bit of a fuck-up until its either cubed or grown to f7+ and backcrossed along the way

ok so far

sooooo if you mix a couple of basically unknown genos to gether you end up with a shit load of phenos

or another way of putting it , assuming the geno types are 50/50 and express this everytime yeah , mix in another plant thats the same and its now down to a absolute max of just 25% of any pheno showing up ( assuming there the same strength ) , now imagine if there not the same , you could be growing a shit load of plants before that pheno shows up again in any of the offspring

and as an example , the autoflowering trait runs at a rough guesstimate at around the 12% , that means say 1 in 7 or so will autoflower if you mix a straight plant with an auto , however you need 2 to play the game of breeding so now your looking at 14 plants yeah ? well no as this would be poor breeding practice to breed just 2 plants together so really you need many many more to be assured the auto trait is there and stable , call it 20 moms and days so 140 plants ,,,, now lets mix again to aim for 25% autoflowering yeah ? now its 1 in 4 and you really want to select the very best plants so your looking to grow out say 200 to be assured of a good amount of plants to play with .... get the picture yet ? by F7 your going to have grown out around the thousand plants and your at 92.5% auto still ,,,,, and thats alot of generations and alot of years of dicking about

so

so you backcross and cheat and create plants that arnt quite as healthy with a much depleted genetic pool to dip a toe into and viola you end up with most of the autos around today

so anyway this all depends on what your after and why , if you have say a shit hot smoko and want to maintain this but the yeilds are dire then fair enough and work at it , if its just so you can say its to mix some just to see then fair enough but really its simply pollen chucking ( sorry to be harsh )

 

[highfirejones]

so thats how that works huh

 

[moggggys]

so thats how that works huh

sort of , im being a rough bastard here

you buy seed and its F1 , to create F1 you take the mother and father plant which are called P1 and mix together and viola sell the seed on which are therefore F1

a P1 is a plant thats been worked to become monohybrid as in its stable and consistent in its grow , done properly you should exhibit very very few different phenos ( a phenotype is a genetic expression of a genotype , the plant is created out of its genotype in the first place )

the fella wants to take 2 plants calling them P1 and breed together but until they are stable there not really P1 at all , given his P1 plants will be hybrid mixs in a shit load of genetic matter in the offspring which means hes got a fuck load of work to try to create stability in what would be considered his F1 , without doing this initial work to cube the strains and then breed cherry picking the best and aiming for many selective runs hes in the shit pheno wise , no fun at all , there are tricks around this but there fuckin dire breeding practices and being honest i dont want to reveal them as theres enough of this going on out there already ( sorry to be a dick )

 

[Adrosmokin]

You spent all that time typing for what? You didn't even help, if anything you tried to bash him because you misunderstood the question.

 

[Vincent VonBlown]

You need to have a base. Grow some stuff out, make some crosses observe what happens. Rather then pondering X x whatever and cubing.

Most genetics are either land races, which are diffucult to grow indoors but maintain their genetic entegrity. Or man made line bred genetics. Which from what I see, the best of, are screwed up genetically. Despite what the breeders of these strains might say.

 

[Bear Country]

sort of , im being a rough bastard here

you buy seed and its F1 , to create F1 you take the mother and father plant which are called P1 and mix together and viola sell the seed on which are therefore F1

a P1 is a plant thats been worked to become monohybrid as in its stable and consistent in its grow , done properly you should exhibit very very few different phenos ( a phenotype is a genetic expression of a genotype , the plant is created out of its genotype in the first place )

the fella wants to take 2 plants calling them P1 and breed together but until they are stable there not really P1 at all , given his P1 plants will be hybrid mixs in a shit load of genetic matter in the offspring which means hes got a fuck load of work to try to create stability in what would be considered his F1 , without doing this initial work to cube the strains and then breed cherry picking the best and aiming for many selective runs hes in the shit pheno wise , no fun at all , there are tricks around this but there fuckin dire breeding practices and being honest i dont want to reveal them as theres enough of this going on out there already ( sorry to be a dick )

Moggs ...you are 100% correct about that....but I think the dude just wants to make some seed....which he can do very easily....and we know that its gonna be for his own use....so breed them and grow some out next year.....its like rolling the dice....you might like what you roll ( 7/11 ) or you just might crap out!!! I think we all know he wont have his own lable next year of WHATEVER!!! LOL Not trying to be a smart ass to the original post either! Just saying its hard to say what you will end up with!!!

 

[dababydroman]

just cross two dank plants and, with well known genes in them and cross them. if they have a good lineage then you'll just get a bunch of different phenos of dank. nothing bad about that in my opinion. and recessive traits don't always mean bad traits. recessive traits can actually be good that's how you come across really special plants. its not very complicated. just know that the more f1's you cross the more genetic info, the more phenos.

 

[dababydroman]

and hey I think every breeder has to start out as a pollen chucker.. I been chuckin pollen for 4 years and sooner or later it turns in to breeding if you ask me.

 

[dababydroman]

I mean Im not a master breeder but I do consider myself to be breeding cannabis.

 

[dababydroman]

to moggy, back crossing with the original parent plant would be the geneticaly unhealthy way. so back crossing to the same "cross" but a different seed, would be the recommended way?

 

[KronicUse]

Trueeeee. good info


So what you say is that if i start with hybrids as parents, good luck finding the pheno I want
without stable, inbred aatleast 7generations, there will be a lot of variation in subsequent generations

If im looking for specific traits in a plant, then it seems better to start with F7+ parents

Sincce there is no telling what dormant traits may be expressed when using a hybrid as a P1; It would be ideal to start with stable gentics and breed for the traits of my choosing




Check out my other thread on the same topic. there is some good info, I got well correced haha
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/630248-got-some-new-strains-need.html



But ya, im asking because I want to get some good seeds that arent gonna have a lot of variation
Bck to this post

My question is like this:
Would it be worth breeding a hydrbid plant with an inbred plant to create seeds for a small scale grow (10-20 plants)?

I ask because I have a relatively small growing area (12x15ft) and I realized Id have better luck finding the leprachaun at the bottom of a rainbow than running a succesfull breeding program in that space. But I still would like to create genetics of my own (even tho Im sure its been done before, it would still be cool to do myself) but i need to keep most of my garden to flower production (not breeding).
So, I need to figure out if it is worth making seeds or if I should just stick to buying them.


My plan was to take my favorite male (most likely the backcross of SFV OG I will be growing) and cross it with my favorite females from most of my other strains (not inbreeding).
Then I started thinking about genetic variation and if my seeds would be worthwhile; I started to research it and I found:
Creating a hybrid, from two different strains inbred for over 7 generations, results in hybrids that resemle their parents and posses "Hybrid Vigor," usually meaning F1s are good

BUT, what happens when you cross two hybrids?
Does it result in the same "Hybrid Vigor" exhibited from crossing inbred genetics?
What is the percentage of plants that would resemble their parents?
In the same line of reasoning, what percentage of seeds from proper (stable) genetics resembles thier parents? I thought it was 100%...
I believe that a hybrid's offspring will not resemble the parents because recessive traits will become exhibited, traits that would have otherwise been bred out of 'stable' genetics. right?



so whats your opinions?
if you were just looking for good F1 seeds would you:
Inbreed your plants, continuing the grower's work?
Breed all of your plants, regardless of hybrid or stable)?
Breed only stable genetics, that have been inbred for over 7 generations(F7+)?
Breed using one stable and one hybrid?
a combination of some kind?
or does it even matter? will i get the same ammount of F1 variation from any store-bought seed?

btw, heres what i have atm:
Cali Connection
Girl Scout Cookies
SFV OG
SubCool/TGA
Jack the Ripper
BOG Seeds
Sour Bubblegum
DJ Short
Blueberry* (from attitude in mid 2012)
Humboldt Seed Organization
TrainWreck*
ChenDawg*
Blue Dream*

*Are all female that i have going this cycle. no seeds
All of them I got as seeds. Half of them from the LA High Times Medical Cannabis Cup. It was awesome


Sorry guys, I know I wrote a book but im well medicated
and THANKS, you all have been very helpful

 

[dababydroman]

stable or hybrid just breed for the traits you want, plain n simple. if you have a nice short squat male and a nice yeilding frosty female that may be lanky or not so stout, maybe you would want to cross those to try to combine the more favorable traits to you. then you would look for the pheno that combines the two and continue from there. you can do whatever you want just go for it. i just dont quite understand why your asking us if you should continue and IBL strain or cross a hybrid? if you have a favorite IBL then carry it on, if you want something bran new cross some hybrids. use a male from a well known strain that you like, and cross it with your favorite female, thats what i do. and then i grow those and do it again.
thats the fun of it you can do whatever you want. dont make it so hard on yourself.

 

[moggggys]

You spent all that time typing for what? You didn't even help, if anything you tried to bash him because you misunderstood the question.

the fellas asking for breeding specifics , i tried to enlighten him to the idea but without glamorizing the idea of its a piece of piss

what exactly have you offered ? if its just criticism then your being a cunt , if your not helping then what are you doing ? do everyone a favour and either offer up quality info or fuck off and troll elsewhere

Moggs ...you are 100% correct about that....but I think the dude just wants to make some seed....which he can do very easily....and we know that its gonna be for his own use....so breed them and grow some out next year.....its like rolling the dice....you might like what you roll ( 7/11 ) or you just might crap out!!! I think we all know he wont have his own lable next year of WHATEVER!!! LOL Not trying to be a smart ass to the original post either! Just saying its hard to say what you will end up with!!!

not sure , i think hes a little more keen hence explaining to the point i did , i recon the lads on a mission and good luck to him , the exotic genetics out there came from a result of either luck or hard graft , chemdog as an example being a mixture of both and it only takes another person out there to have their whits about them and the next cheese could come along , its then just knowing how to use it for the best

and hey I think every breeder has to start out as a pollen chucker.. I been chuckin pollen for 4 years and sooner or later it turns in to breeding if you ask me.

excellent , stick with it , you never know ......... i used to make seed stock for a certain breeder , its a miss conception that breeders make and keep all there own stock , the reality is people such as myself keep and maintain the moms and dads in P1 form creating seed stock as and when its called for

to moggy, back crossing with the original parent plant would be the geneticaly unhealthy way. so back crossing to the same "cross" but a different seed, would be the recommended way?

yep it is , very unhealthy on a genetic level as it certainly doesnt allow for a full range of genetic material in the offspring but inbreds hereditary traits , this is why you backcross at a certain point and not from the outset , if you dont you can find you have just created 5000 mutants and there spread around the world ,,,oops , there is a fair bit of leway when it comes to plants and genetics , you do come upto a genetic brick wall but given the simplicity of plants this isnt the end of the world , but then its what the market requires , stability and uniformity , this cubing has good side though , get a couple of strains already stable phenotype wize and mix them together , if the plants are very close together in taxonomy the hybrid vigour is rather welcommed as is the results of this being very healthy with the chance of fantastic yeilds and huge plants

 

[moggggys]

im an idiot , i missed this bit

yes , for sure , expect a degree of veriation and be prepared thats all , some may be taller than others which means a bit ofbending here and there , some may be longer to flower but once again its easily got round , some may be runts compared to others so its sort and sellect if needed or be firm and trim/lst/cane the buggers so they all get the light love

``if you were just looking for good F1 seeds would you:``

aha , this is where it gets a little complicated but ill keep it simple ( im being lazy )
you can either take a couple of strains and mix , this is pollen chucking , you may do well , you may create a mess
you can take a couple of strains that are close to each other and mix to see what you get ( sour bubble and t/w from the list )
you can mix and then work at a target
and thats the whole point and hopefully not sounding a snob , really you want a target , an idea in mind , s/b is a wonderful plant it really is but yields can be soso at times , the nugs are rock hard and the whole plants just fantastic but yields .... how to get them up ? well t/w yields a fair bit more so mixing the 2 makes sense to increase , its then becomes a work in progress to then grow amounts out maintaining moms and dads to source the very best breeding parents to further this idea , if you dont its pollen chucking , so working at it for successive generations can create a sour bubble that produces more , the hard work is simply the numbers and having a full understanding of decent and proper breeding techniques and knowing the plant inside and out to be assured you can accually find what your looking for , after this its a numbers game , the perfect mom may show up in f2 form but you may have to grow hundreds before finding just the right plant , that special little lady , and her perfections may be lost at f3 or 4 or 5 etc so you may have to take a step back from time to time

isnt breeding fun lol

My question is like this:
Would it be worth breeding a hydrbid plant with an inbred plant to create seeds for a small scale grow (10-20 plants)?

 

[Rising Moon]

So many people seem scared/overwhelmed to make a simple cross, and run out the results.

Nothing to fear, it's just seeds. Professionals turn everything into a profession, but people have been breeding plants longer than any other activity, besides tool making and hunting.

Beans, tomatoes and lettuce are really great teachers for seed savers/breeders.

And I would suggest you cross up whatever plants speak to you, follow your intuition, and if your interested in all this on a deeper level, try breeding some of your own vegetable crops as well. It's really great practice, and many of the same rules apply to cannabis. Plus you can grow as many as you want!

 

[Bear Country]

im an idiot , i missed this bit

yes , for sure , expect a degree of veriation and be prepared thats all , some may be taller than others which means a bit ofbending here and there , some may be longer to flower but once again its easily got round , some may be runts compared to others so its sort and sellect if needed or be firm and trim/lst/cane the buggers so they all get the light love

``if you were just looking for good F1 seeds would you:``

aha , this is where it gets a little complicated but ill keep it simple ( im being lazy )
you can either take a couple of strains and mix , this is pollen chucking , you may do well , you may create a mess
you can take a couple of strains that are close to each other and mix to see what you get ( sour bubble and t/w from the list )
you can mix and then work at a target
and thats the whole point and hopefully not sounding a snob , really you want a target , an idea in mind , s/b is a wonderful plant it really is but yields can be soso at times , the nugs are rock hard and the whole plants just fantastic but yields .... how to get them up ? well t/w yields a fair bit more so mixing the 2 makes sense to increase , its then becomes a work in progress to then grow amounts out maintaining moms and dads to source the very best breeding parents to further this idea , if you dont its pollen chucking , so working at it for successive generations can create a sour bubble that produces more , the hard work is simply the numbers and having a full understanding of decent and proper breeding techniques and knowing the plant inside and out to be assured you can accually find what your looking for , after this its a numbers game , the perfect mom may show up in f2 form but you may have to grow hundreds before finding just the right plant , that special little lady , and her perfections may be lost at f3 or 4 or 5 etc so you may have to take a step back from time to time

isnt breeding fun lol

My question is like this:
Would it be worth breeding a hydrbid plant with an inbred plant to create seeds for a small scale grow (10-20 plants)?

Good post.....Down to the point without giving people brain damage.....Breeding is fun and also ALLOT of work and the truth of the matter is that the majority of growers just dont have the time, space or the will to get into it like that....but for those who do....props....it's because of those people that WE ALL get to enjoy these great genetics and strains!!! Everyone who grows should invest some time in learning about the process of breeding...granted it can get deep...but in my opinion....it would just make for better growers....And for those who just want to grow some dank.....well...thats ok to!!!

 

[Adrosmokin]

the fellas asking for breeding specifics , i tried to enlighten him to the idea but without glamorizing the idea of its a piece of piss

what exactly have you offered ? if its just criticism then your being a cunt , if your not helping then what are you doing ? do everyone a favour and either offer up quality info or fuck off and troll elsewhere

LOL! All I'm saying, there is no reason to be a douche when the guy is talking about simple crossing at home for fun. Go smoke some weed and relax.

 

[KronicUse]

yup, "simple" cross! except nothing is simple lol

I wanted to ask before I started "pollen chucking" because I would like to eventually have a strain I could call my own.
but the fact is there are a ton of great genetics out there. might as well just take advantage of it

I want to grow from ceeds, rather than clones tho; so i would like to produce my own rather than buying them
To produce my own ceeds with any genetic value to them, I knew I had to learn some stuff first

After reading your comments and pondering breeding while medicating I came up with a plan
This is my idea to accomplish my goal.
I will grow out what I got
select the best speciems (any of my strains, regardless of genetic stability),
and create an F1 generation.
Take my best F1 male
and back cross it to one of the specimens I previously selected.

I believe, that in this way, I will be able to create a surplus ceed stock, of good quality genetics with the least amount of phenotypic variation

what do you guys think? good plan? is this the simplest way to get seeds, if all I want for now is to have good supply of ceeds that will be genetically similar?