Income tax is theft

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
You don't have your US birth certificate? It is indeed magic paper.

I will tell you this in all seriousness. When I travel, I have 2 sheets paper. One in each shoe, under the pad.

One is a copy of my birth certificate and the other is a copy of my passport. I won't leave without it.
Travel ? Magic papers? I put magic stuff IN my papers, didn't realize the papers themselves were magic...
Don't forget to spread 'em wide for the TSA....hey don't they KEEP some people from leaving? Guess THOSE people aren't free to go huh?

I think our differences can be explained this way....

You seem to think that the correct government or a piece of paper will magically protect you. That's impossible, since government exists to protect itself and feeds off the constituency.

I think people are free and should be left alone, that the problem with government isn't the interchangeable anonymous henchman that come and go in this system...the problem is systemic, it lies in the institution itself. Anything that starts by endorsing aggression as one of it's core principles is doomed to failure. Replacing the players, by voting for a new stranger to tell you how to live won't and hasn't changed anything.

Make a new plan Stan. Now pretty please, just watch the Stefan Molyneux video ?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
So, you are saying we stole America. Right you are. But, it is very difficult to pull that off, so we had to fight and got lucky.

Don't you know that this so called imaginary boundary was never imaginary. It is only sanctioned by the UN. The boundaries are actually geo-physical...rivers, oceans, islands, deserts, mountains and what not. And still be contested in parts of the world.

So, you want to go back to nomadic notions? No property ownership? But even that is false. You know the Bedouins, but you can take any group of nomadic roamers, say, the cattle tribes in Africa.

To say they don't own their wander lands is false. The Sioux certainly thought they owned the Black Hills.

So, we can't mix up deeds and ownership. And that's why there never was un-owned land, when people got there. If there is someone there to successfully defend it, it's theirs.

If you take it, it's yours.

In this world, as in the Under-verse. We keep what we kill, Riddick.
Riddick? You're not gonna release those flying bat monster things on me at sundown are ya?
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Travel ? Magic papers? I put magic stuff IN my papers, didn't realize the papers themselves were magic...
Don't forget to spread 'em wide for the TSA....hey don't they KEEP some people from leaving? Guess THOSE people aren't free to go huh?

I think our differences can be explained this way....

You seem to think that the correct government or a piece of paper will magically protect you. That's impossible, since government exists to protect itself and feeds off the constituency.

I think people are free and should be left alone, that the problem with government isn't the interchangeable anonymous henchman that come and go in this system...the problem is systemic, it lies in the institution itself. Anything that starts by endorsing aggression as one of it's core principles is doomed to failure. Replacing the players, by voting for a new stranger to tell you how to live won't and hasn't changed anything.

Make a new plan Stan. Now pretty please, just watch the Stefan Molyneux video ?
I appreciate it, I really do. But, I'm played out. For many years I was into scripting just these types of manifesto. I'm tired. My point is don't let what happened to me. Half my young life was wasted fighting the Democrats.

I'd much rather just hear your personal take on things. I stopped polluting my mind with these thought puzzle that don't make sense any more. I just try to think more clearly.

BTW, the paper in the shoe is magic to get back in country if I lose or get lifed, my passport. Just like magic.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
My personal take is, the golden rule. Live and let live. All the rest seems superfluous and designed to rationalize behavior.

When the mother ship, comes I'll save you a seat...as long as you bring your magic papers.
 

deprave

New Member
Your first line is accurate. The rest not so much. A persons consent cannot be given by another or group of others. There is no "social contract". That's a fallacy.

Stefan Molyneux called and said watch this video....

The Social Contract: Defined and Destroyed in under 5 mins


The Social Contract: Defined and Destroyed in under 5 mins ...


good video and he totally nailed it

[video=youtube;jNj0VhK19QU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNj0VhK19QU[/video]
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
there is no law that says we have to pay a federal income tax, furthermore, even if you found one remotely relating to it, we didn't vote for it.
Yes there is. 26 U.S.C. § 1. It's not so much remotely related as directly.YOU don't vote on laws, you have elected representatives that vote on your behalf, and yes they voted it as law.

This page explains it:

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/JustNoLaw.htm

This page explains other directly related topics:

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/IncomeTax.htm
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Let's go back.

How can you have any pudding if you won't eat your meat????

None of youth are taught civics anymore. If you don't know the various ways the system can fuck you, you will be fucked. Do the HOMEWORK.

This entire process has a set of manuals and other reading material that describes how it works, and how we got here, in detail. It is just that it is soaked in Patrotism and the Left fears it. The neonot-left will tell you America is over, you are backing the wrong horse, you need to be against the Constitution.

So, you need to study your owners manual and user guides. It is my message entire. I'm not hatin' I just trying to give a certain, unknown and surely very few a heads up from someone how has been there, done that.

In tech we call it RTFM. (cn knows what that means) You got to Read it. You have to think for yourself and get some for your life. The pursuit of happiness is the pudding, reading the Civics is the meat, We can't help Snipes. He too believed there was no Income Tax.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
No one forces anyone to pay income tax. There are choices.
Somalia and Haiti come to mind immediatly

Yes, there are choices. I've chosen not to initiate force or ask others to do it on my behalf.

You seem angry. Why not let it go? Life is much easier when people interact on a consensual basis. Peace.
 

deprave

New Member
Yes there is. 26 U.S.C. § 1. It's not so much remotely related as directly.YOU don't vote on laws, you have elected representatives that vote on your behalf, and yes they voted it as law.

This page explains it:

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/JustNoLaw.htm

This page explains other directly related topics:

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/IncomeTax.htm
Courts have ruled in favor of people who have fought against the lawfulness of the federal income tax on countless occasions.

How cute that these are the first hits on google, the topic is very thoroughly debated online, I would advise you to look into it further. I mean you really think the millions of people that have debated this over the years didn't even bother to look it up as these pages argue ? (not even going to mention they are hosted on state sponsored servers) come on now. A few Examples of some arguments in regards to court rullings are as follows(and more legal based examples here http://sedm.org/Exhibits/ExhibitIndex.htm also you can reference 'sovereign citizen movement' sources) :

"The laws of Congress in respect to these matters [Federal income taxation] do not extend into the territorial limits of the states, but have force only in the District of Columbia, and other places that are within the exclusive jurisdiction of the national government." Caha v. United States, 152 U.S. 211, 215 14 S. Ct. 513 (1894)

Congress has the power to tax "incomes"....but ther are limits.

INCOME, also is not defined in the regulations. Again we have to be sure what the constitutional meaning of "income" is, by relying on Supreme Court rulings which must not conflict with the US Constitution, still the Supreme Law of the Land. (there are so many rulings in our favor, and against the taxing power, as was intended to be for a country to survive and prosper, and not to end up in serfdom...)
Not even getting into the fact the income tax is an indirect/excise tax....(some lower courts have ruled it "direct", but the original determinations have never been overruled!)

"by the previous ruling, it was settled that the provisions of the 16th amendment conferred no new powers of taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged.." Stanton v Baltic Mining Co (1916) -- that is pretty clear.
Brushaber v. Union Pacific (1916) reenforces the determination:"......taxation on income was in its nature an excise tax entitled to be enforced as such." to name only 2 cases...You may rely on these early rulings, instead of IRS, or taxpreparer's opinions.

Since an excise tax is a "privilege" tax, you must be engaged in such an activity to qualify for an income tax. For example, IRS agents are liable for the tax. I hear there are a fair amount of them cheating on their taxes too! They should pay their fair share!

Whereas most of us here are merely earning a living in the private sector. This is an inalienable right, and is not taxable by law. The IRS are SO mad about that!

"An income tax is neither a property tax nor a tax on occupations of common right, but is an EXCISE tax... The legislature may declare as "privileged" and tax for state revenue, those persuits not matters of common right, but it has no power to declare as privilege and tax for revenue purposes, occupations that are a common right," Simms v Aherns (1925) -- that's pretty clear; and finally, but certainly not all.....

"The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income as such. It is a tax with respect to certain privileges which is measured by reference to the income which they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax; it is the basis for detemining the amount of tax." F. Moe Hubbard, Treasury Dept., Legislative Branch House Congressional Record page 2580 (1943)

"A state, or the Federal Government may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution." Murdock v. Penn., 319 US 105 at 113

Further defined and limited:
"It is to be noted in the language of the Act, it is NOT salaries, wages or compensation for personal services that are to be included in gross income. That which IS to be included is gains profits and income DERIVED FROM salaries, wages or compensation for personal services." The US Supreme Court, Lucas v Earl (1930) and the Internal Revenue Acts, (1928, 1939) THAT'S HOW YOU FIGURE YOUR "GROSS INCOME" PROVIDED YOU EARNED FROM A PRIVILEGED ACTIVITY. That is what the law says.
,
 

deprave

New Member
No one forces anyone to pay income tax. There are choices.
Somalia and Haiti come to mind immediatly
No you aren't FORCED, but fear is instilled in you and threats are made, which fits the definition of robbery which I provided earlier, you just made a threat in this quote.

[video=youtube;vKP-bVViPX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKP-bVViPX8[/video]
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Courts have ruled in favor of people who have fought against the lawfulness of the federal income tax on countless occasions.

How cute that these are the first hits on google, the topic is very thoroughly debated online, I would advise you to look into it further. I mean you really think the millions of people that have debated this over the years didn't even bother to look it up as these pages argue ? (not even going to mention they are hosted on state sponsored servers) come on now. A few Examples of some arguments in regards to court rullings are as follows(and more legal based examples here http://sedm.org/Exhibits/ExhibitIndex.htm also you can reference 'sovereign citizen movement' sources) :

"The laws of Congress in respect to these matters [Federal income taxation] do not extend into the territorial limits of the states, but have force only in the District of Columbia, and other places that are within the exclusive jurisdiction of the national government." Caha v. United States, 152 U.S. 211, 215 14 S. Ct. 513 (1894)

Congress has the power to tax "incomes"....but ther are limits.

INCOME, also is not defined in the regulations. Again we have to be sure what the constitutional meaning of "income" is, by relying on Supreme Court rulings which must not conflict with the US Constitution, still the Supreme Law of the Land. (there are so many rulings in our favor, and against the taxing power, as was intended to be for a country to survive and prosper, and not to end up in serfdom...)
Not even getting into the fact the income tax is an indirect/excise tax....(some lower courts have ruled it "direct", but the original determinations have never been overruled!)

"by the previous ruling, it was settled that the provisions of the 16th amendment conferred no new powers of taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged.." Stanton v Baltic Mining Co (1916) -- that is pretty clear.
Brushaber v. Union Pacific (1916) reenforces the determination:"......taxation on income was in its nature an excise tax entitled to be enforced as such." to name only 2 cases...You may rely on these early rulings, instead of IRS, or taxpreparer's opinions.

Since an excise tax is a "privilege" tax, you must be engaged in such an activity to qualify for an income tax. For example, IRS agents are liable for the tax. I hear there are a fair amount of them cheating on their taxes too! They should pay their fair share!

Whereas most of us here are merely earning a living in the private sector. This is an inalienable right, and is not taxable by law. The IRS are SO mad about that!

"An income tax is neither a property tax nor a tax on occupations of common right, but is an EXCISE tax... The legislature may declare as "privileged" and tax for state revenue, those persuits not matters of common right, but it has no power to declare as privilege and tax for revenue purposes, occupations that are a common right," Simms v Aherns (1925) -- that's pretty clear; and finally, but certainly not all.....

"The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income as such. It is a tax with respect to certain privileges which is measured by reference to the income which they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax; it is the basis for detemining the amount of tax." F. Moe Hubbard, Treasury Dept., Legislative Branch House Congressional Record page 2580 (1943)

"A state, or the Federal Government may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution." Murdock v. Penn., 319 US 105 at 113

Further defined and limited:
"It is to be noted in the language of the Act, it is NOT salaries, wages or compensation for personal services that are to be included in gross income. That which IS to be included is gains profits and income DERIVED FROM salaries, wages or compensation for personal services." The US Supreme Court, Lucas v Earl (1930) and the Internal Revenue Acts, (1928, 1939) THAT'S HOW YOU FIGURE YOUR "GROSS INCOME" PROVIDED YOU EARNED FROM A PRIVILEGED ACTIVITY. That is what the law says.
,
This is why self employment is discouraged in the US. When a so called taxpayer (which is different than a tax payer) is supposedly liable for taxation, it is easier for everybody (except the employer) to chip away a little each paycheck, rather than expect that person to send in his quarterly payments. How long would it take the American public to protest the "income tax", if everyone had to do that? This way, the EMPLOYER is responsible for collecting and paying YOUR taxes and has become an unwilling partner in this fraud.

Out of sight, out of mind. If you don't see the money, you don't miss the money and you adjust your lifestyle according to your "take home" pay. It doesn't hurt that much, so it's no big deal. Ask most people, "how much did you pay in income taxes?" and they'll say, "I got a refund"... reply, "OK, but how much did you pay?"... "I don't know what you're talking about, I got $700 back".

The Fed and the IRS are the two biggest obstacles to liberty in the US. Four presidents have stood up to the monied interests, Jackson survived his assassination attempt, Lincoln, Garfield and Kennedy did not.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
Courts have ruled in favor of people who have fought against the lawfulness of the federal income tax on countless occasions.
Wrong. See here: http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/cases.htm

How cute that these are the first hits on google, the topic is very thoroughly debated online, I would advise you to look into it further. I mean you really think the millions of people that have debated this over the years didn't even bother to look it up as these pages argue ? (not even going to mention they are hosted on state sponsored servers) come on now. A few Examples of some arguments in regards to court rullings are as follows(and more legal based examples here http://sedm.org/Exhibits/ExhibitIndex.htm also you can reference 'sovereign citizen movement' sources) :

"The laws of Congress in respect to these matters [Federal income taxation] do not extend into the territorial limits of the states, but have force only in the District of Columbia, and other places that are within the exclusive jurisdiction of the national government." Caha v. United States, 152 U.S. 211, 215 14 S. Ct. 513 (1894)
Yes I do think that. I have had countless discussions with tax protestors and not a single one of them has done sufficient research in looking up what the actual laws are. You apparently haven't either by your first statement of:

there is no law that says we have to pay a federal income tax, furthermore, even if you found one remotely relating to it, we didn't vote for it.
I presented you with a copy of the actual law. If you are disputing the accuracy of it because its on a "state sponsored server" then go look it up in the actual code. If you want you can view it here: http://143.231.180.80/

Go to Title 26, section 1 and read it for yourself.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest of your nonsense. It is an actual law, and you have to obey it. Anyone telling you otherwise is wrong. Any cases you have where tax protestors "won" is either an acquittal (which is not the same as being right) or was misread/misinterpreted by you or the person that fed you the bullshit. It is not only in black and white what the law is, but it has been upheld numerous times by the courts. This should not even be open for discussion anymore.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
This is why self employment is discouraged in the US. When a so called taxpayer (which is different than a tax payer) is supposedly liable for taxation, it is easier for everybody (except the employer) to chip away a little each paycheck, rather than expect that person to send in his quarterly payments. How long would it take the American public to protest the "income tax", if everyone had to do that? This way, the EMPLOYER is responsible for collecting and paying YOUR taxes and has become an unwilling partner in this fraud.

Out of sight, out of mind. If you don't see the money, you don't miss the money and you adjust your lifestyle according to your "take home" pay. It doesn't hurt that much, so it's no big deal. Ask most people, "how much did you pay in income taxes?" and they'll say, "I got a refund"... reply, "OK, but how much did you pay?"... "I don't know what you're talking about, I got $700 back".

The Fed and the IRS are the two biggest obstacles to liberty in the US. Four presidents have stood up to the monied interests, Jackson survived his assassination attempt, Lincoln, Garfield and Kennedy did not.
It is done that way because the average person is not smart or responsible enough to put the appropriate amount of money away, and it is very difficult to retrieve money once it has been spent, and the government knows that. The average persons misunderstanding of how tax withholding and tax payments/refunds work in no way validates or invalidates the constitutionality of the law or it's existence.
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
READ the FU*KING MANUAL.

I have gone with no withhoding at all, and they still own me. The tax code (I hate) is a mish-mash of social tinkering and un-intended consequence.

If you have any balls and want to take the risk, you pay less tax. If you play the game of a subtle level, instead of substitution talk for DO, then you set up a business on govt grants. If you play the game you can end up paying no tax at all.

And it is very easy to get to no withholding.

And what is this mean even? I have set up and maintained my own corporations, Sub-S, and Limited LTD.

Boys, 80% of this 3x larger economy in the world is consumer and small business.

So, there is a typical cry baby excuse (too hard) and also slapped dumb ignorance can say the self employment is discouraged. But, small business is the job creator engine.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Yes, there are choices. I've chosen not to initiate force or ask others to do it on my behalf.

You seem angry. Why not let it go? Life is much easier when people interact on a consensual basis. Peace.
Why not just get over puberty and pay your taxes and contribute to society instead of being an incessantly whining little bitch?
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Wrong. See here: http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/cases.htm



Yes I do think that. I have had countless discussions with tax protestors and not a single one of them has done sufficient research in looking up what the actual laws are. You apparently haven't either by your first statement of:



I presented you with a copy of the actual law. If you are disputing the accuracy of it because its on a "state sponsored server" then go look it up in the actual code. If you want you can view it here: http://143.231.180.80/

Go to Title 26, section 1 and read it for yourself.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest of your nonsense. It is an actual law, and you have to obey it. Anyone telling you otherwise is wrong. Any cases you have where tax protestors "won" is either an acquittal (which is not the same as being right) or was misread/misinterpreted by you or the person that fed you the bullshit. It is not only in black and white what the law is, but it has been upheld numerous times by the courts. This should not even be open for discussion anymore.
I have read Title 26, as have many others including several IRS agents and have yet to see what I am asking for. If you read it without the preconception that it is legal and pertains to everybody, then, I can see where you could misinterpret it that way.
 
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