When does Capitalism fail?

[Dr Kynes]

Since we are splitting hairs, see if you can go along with this. Let me set it up and show you.

Personal standing in the group is Capital that can be parlayed into markers.

Markers have become Money. Money has good and bad outcomes. Since there is a common coin, there is a common value to goods and services that are set by the "brother of barter", auction. And public auction, in it all it's forms, housing market, govt services bids, all the way to Ebay, is the way value is set. BTW, it is the only way real value can be determined in a money system. But, it can get subtle and tricky. I see everyone here is aware of that. The giant $$$ at play can lead to somewhat out of control. And, also, quite shocking abuse.

But, largess and credit and a market economy, leads to consumerism. Since WW2 we see Consumerism. It is a kind of auction gone a bit wild, and it is very hard to say who is driving the bus, the producers of goods or the consumers. And it fights itself into insanity. The Marketing/Press?Elections/Advertising/Info Overload is what we get to see here.

A most detestable state of Commercialism.

It's Commercialism we all hate. We love Capital Standing among our fellows, even here on this board. And trading Capital for makers and more markers is economy, not an -ism.

So, don't get mix up as to which is the Golden Goose. 1) you can't kill capitalism. It's not an -ism. It doesn't even exist like that except as a kicked dog for Marx, Lenin, and Mao. Every -ism needs an enemy. Every -ism wants to try this purely intellectual push of the lower classes in to a much worse situation than they had.

Aye, I mean Commercialism and it may well be the worst -ism, yet. Follow me?

i gotta disagree.

capital and capital markets are the essence of the division of labour which makes society possible.

brick makers make bricks for the brick layers who lay bricks to form houses for the woodcutters who cut the wood for the charcoal makers who make the charcoal for the blacksmith who makes the tools for the miners who need bread, from the baker who needs an oven, from the bricklayers who need brick makers to start the whole thing off.

capital markets and intrinsic value trade, based on Utility Desirability and Scarcity are the engine that makes all these interdependencies possible. even if the bricklayer is a total cunt, and a drunkard to boot, if his bricks are good and he provides them when promised, his labour still makes items which still have capital value based on Utility Desirability and Scarcity.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

All of you don't know what capitalism is capable of!

On a serious note, capitalism doesn't fail, socialist do gooding meddling government does. Government is a meta-concept, it only works when enough believe. That's why you have wars, because at some point we can only believe through force.

Those with enough capital try to convince you their reality is true. Brazil's Real collapse and the Asian banking scare in the 90s are examples of this.

We will always have capital. Beauty is capital, prettier things have more perceived value. Scarcity is perceived value, like gold. I think you get it.

When capitalism fails, isn't really capitalism failing. Socialist government fails us by temporarily inflating capital beyond its natural value. Example, rent control makes rentals harder to find because of rental squatters hold on to a rental and then illegally sublent it. The housing bubble is another. It also could've never happened without government giving fake credit.

Government like entities can harm the economy, just like government. These include: syndicates, cartels, gangs, mobs, etc.

I'm not saying bad things don't happen when capitalism is left alone. But the same happens in nature. There are famines and species go extinct, all without humans. Dinosaurs anyone?

But when the bad happens, government invention using socialist ideals to make things "fair" usually only make things worse in the end.

 

[Doer]

So, sorry, you are not disagreeing. I agree with you after that. My view of Capital is the Masons and their Guilds, for example. No money, no pay, some very valuable coin around, but not for you. It would be death to possess it. That's way up in the hierarchy. It's a life you live by your Capital. If your Dad was sort of a low Capital type but still you are a training apprentice, you have a lot to prove. If your Dad was a high Capital type, but still you are a training apprentice, you have a lot to prove. (but they may cover you ass bit better if needed)

Each son will build Capital in the Guild. They may trade and still keep the Capital as they rise among their fellows and gain more. Or not.

That Capital will mean everything in their lives, even though they may never see coin of gold.

Now. Take this concept and put it any place and any time before the common coin. Egypt and masons. India and masons. Or any Guild.

Spacers Guild. Spicy...

When we lost the Guilds, we gained a lot and the Commercialism, but we lost the example of how Capital Standing and gaining more of that, existed before money. And today, if your word is worth nothing, ultimately neither is your money when you piss off the wrong people, right?

 

[UncleBuck]

All of you don't know what capitalism is capable of!

On a serious note, capitalism doesn't fail, socialist do gooding meddling government does.

tell that to monopoly busting teddy roosevelt.

unless, of course, you consider monopolies to not be a failure of capitalism.

 

[UncleBuck]

Benito Mussolini disagrees.

of course this is what prompted trotsky to call him a sellout and claim he Betrayed Communism with his acquiescence to the power of the bourgeois...

Marxism is a rowdy school bus not a monastery but it's still ONE Goal with many ideas about the best way to pursue it.

mao and stalin didnt agree on much either, except they hated capitalism (but loved the trappings and wealth of the enemy) yet both were still socialists and both were still marxists

Trotsky and Lenin hatred both those cunts, and they were Communists as well as Marxists.

Fidel Castro betrayed Che Guevara to the bolivians because Che was a Communist Revolutionary, but Fidel was a Socialist self-promoter and autocrat who was quite satisfied with the current state of affairs and desired no furthher revolutionary action towards Communism or even proper Socialism.

are you getting it yet?

Marxism has a RAINBOW of flavours each one distinct in it's Communism, Socialism and Capitalism components. thats right ALL 3!

without a little Capitalism and a little Socialism, Communism is just a utopia.

without a little Communism and a little Capitalism Socialism is a Dystopia

and without a little Socialism and a little Communism, Capitalism devolves into Somalia.

can't dazzle with brilliance, so baffle with bullshit.

keep telling me all about how buying insurance from a private company is socialism.

then tell me about two more bills obama has signed into law that are socialist.

you can't because you are deluded and reality does not fit your delusions.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

tell that to monopoly busting teddy roosevelt.

unless, of course, you consider monopolies to not be a failure of capitalism.

Monopolies have nothing to do with capitalism. Government has monopolies too. Try making your own currency, other than store credit, like gift cards. See what happens.

It's really hilarious when the biggest monopoly tries to break monopolies so they're the only monopoly.

If government becomes my worst nightmare, you asshole will become capital if you're hungry enough and the other is horny enough. A capital transaction occurs, Buck gets bread, weed, etc and the other your nice warm asshole for a few minutes.

No matter how much you hate capitalism and want your FREE shit, it ain't happening. Capitalism will NEVER go away. Extreme socialism still requires your ass to exploit.

 

[Rancho Cucamonga]

Read a few Richard Posner books. He seems to have it right on capitalism.

 

[UncleBuck]

Monopolies have nothing to do with capitalism.

LOL!

whatever you say. go on dreaming about assfucking me. oh, and the free shit line. that worked so well last november.

so well that you had a fucking conniption.

 

[Dr Kynes]

can't dazzle with brilliance, so baffle with bullshit.

keep telling me all about how buying insurance from a private company is socialism.

then tell me about two more bills obama has signed into law that are socialist.

you can't because you are deluded and reality does not fit your delusions.

denying the facts and rejecting the words of Il Duce may make you feel smart and principled, but its just self-delusion.

Thrid Way Socialism (sometimes called Corporate Socialism, Corporatism and Crony Capitalism) are all the same idea, and that idea is a direct offshot of Marxism, adheriung to all of Marx's theories about Capitalism, Communism and Socilaism, save "Class Struggle" and "Proletarian Revolution".

Benito created a method by which Marxism could be voted in without Class Struggle by invoking Nationalism and slowly upping the ante on the Socialism to ease the non-radicalized proletariat into Marxist Ideology without having to hurl any bodies at the barricades.

Third Way Socialism is simply a less violent method of instituting Marxist ideology, using a Petty Bourgeois Vanguard, as distinguished from Marx's original Intellectual Vanguard,the Bolshevik Industrial Workers Vanguard, and Mao's Agrarian Vanguard.

Read the Communist Manifesto, Quotations From The Chairman (the little red book), Benito's dissertation cited earlier, and Trotsky's criticism of Mussolini's ideas and youll have a good understanding of Marxism's major styles and flavours.

It may also help if you pull your head out of your ass, or at least swallow a flashlight.

 

[abandonconflict]

Monopolies have nothing to do with capitalism.

 

[UncleBuck]

denying the facts and rejecting the words of Il Duce may make you feel smart and principled, but its just self-delusion.

Thrid Way Socialism (sometimes called Corporate Socialism, Corporatism and Crony Capitalism) are all the same idea, and that idea is a direct offshot of Marxism, adheriung to all of Marx's theories about Capitalism, Communism and Socilaism, save "Class Struggle" and "Proletarian Revolution".

Benito created a method by which Marxism could be voted in without Class Struggle by invoking Nationalism and slowly upping the ante on the Socialism to ease the non-radicalized proletariat into Marxist Ideology without having to hurl any bodies at the barricades.

Third Way Socialism is simply a less violent method of instituting Marxist ideology, using a Petty Bourgeois Vanguard, as distinguished from Marx's original Intellectual Vanguard,the Bolshevik Industrial Workers Vanguard, and Mao's Agrarian Vanguard.

Read the Communist Manifesto, Quotations From The Chairman (the little red book), Benito's dissertation cited earlier, and Trotsky's criticism of Mussolini's ideas and youll have a good understanding of Marxism's major styles and flavours.

It may also help if you pull your head out of your ass, or at least swallow a flashlight.

if you're really smart, you'll start writing about 4th and 5th way socialism now that way it doesn't look like you are just making up words to label the next non-socialist with.

you're still three bills short since buying insurance on the for-profit, private market is not socialism, moron.

but go on chasing your mussolini bunnies because you like the sound your keyboard makes when you type. your choice.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Monopolies have nothing to do with capitalism. Government has monopolies too. Try making your own currency, other than store credit, like gift cards. See what happens.

It's really hilarious when the biggest monopoly tries to break monopolies so they're the only monopoly.

If government becomes my worst nightmare, you asshole will become capital if you're hungry enough and the other is horny enough. A capital transaction occurs, Buck gets bread, weed, etc and the other your nice warm asshole for a few minutes.

No matter how much you hate capitalism and want your FREE shit, it ain't happening. Capitalism will NEVER go away. Extreme socialism still requires your ass to exploit.

I gotta disagree wabbit.

monopolies are a real hazard of all forms of capitalism and all capital markets, including labour markets, where trade unions can shut down all negotiation between parties in favour of their collective bargaining rules.

I, Like Theodore Roosevelt favour restrictions on the growth of monolpolies, but bucky too is in error.

TR was not busting monopolies, he was busting TRUSTS which are Cartels, made up of many members of an industry or maket working in concert to control prices and eliminate competition.

getting a real monopoly on any product or service unless you invented it yourself, and hold a Patent or Trade Secret is harder than algebra. even buying back your stocks to turn a publicly traded company into a privately held company is expensive and difficult, and thats just to gain control of a single company, much less and industry or market segment.

real monopolies are rare as fuck outside Patents and Trade Secrets, but they can be extremely dangerous.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

LOL!

whatever you say. go on dreaming about assfucking me. oh, and the free shit line. that worked so well last november.

so well that you had a fucking conniption.

So explain how your dream world happens. I can imagine how you extremely limit capitalism through tyrannical government trying to eliminate it. Logan's Run, The Giver and Brave New World come to mind. But even then, it won't work forever.

How do you eliminate EVIL CAPITALISM, without replacing it with an all knowing watching government.

Unless, you want god and religion. It has tried The True Way socialism too. You a closet bible thumper, Buck?

 

[Dr Kynes]

if you're really smart, you'll start writing about 4th and 5th way socialism now that way it doesn't look like you are just making up words to label the next non-socialist with.

you're still three bills short since buying insurance on the for-profit, private market is not socialism, moron.

but go on chasing your mussolini bunnies because you like the sound your keyboard makes when you type. your choice.

read the suggested works. they arent even that long, and you can get them free from several communist socialist and marxist organizations.

but you wont do that.

 

[UncleBuck]

So explain how your dream world happens. I can imagine how you extremely limit capitalism through tyrannical government trying to eliminate it. Logan's Run, The Giver and Brave New World come to mind. But even then, it won't work forever.

How do you eliminate EVIL CAPITALISM, without replacing it with an all knowing watching government.

Unless, you want god and religion. It has tried The True Way socialism too. You a closet bible thumper, Buck?

when did i ever say that i was opposed to capitalism?

what we've got going right now is pretty good. i just like making sport of your silly ass.

and kynes was right, i meant trusts, not monopolies. no real difference functionally.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

Doc,

Trade and patent secrets are just another form of socialism. Corporations are a group, just like any form of communism.

That's not a failure of capitalism. What lots fail to realize, regulation doesn't need be government. A good example is the free source community. Linux is way stabler than the Microsoft government OS.

 

[UncleBuck]

read the suggested works. they arent even that long, and you can get them free from several communist socialist and marxist organizations.

but you wont do that.

i don't need a book to tell me that buying insurance from private, for-profit insurers is not socialism. or new wave socialism. or pastafarian socialism. or asymmetric backwards lunge thrust socialism. or whatever new socialism you want to invent next to try to fit the world to your delusions rather than fixing your delusions to fit the world.

 

[UncleBuck]

Trade and patent secrets are just another form of socialism.

you and miss kynes should really bother to learn what socialism is.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

you and miss kynes should really bother to learn what socialism is.

I know exactly what socialism is. It was a bunch of communists who got all butthurt Marx came up with it first. So they slightly changed the description and that way it's "different." But both want the same goals. The means and bullshit are only different.

 

[undertheice]

Third Way Socialism (sometimes called Corporate Socialism, Corporatism and Crony Capitalism) are all the same idea, and that idea is a direct offshoot of Marxism, adhering to all of Marx's theories about Capitalism, Communism and Socialism, save "Class Struggle" and "Proletarian Revolution".

i'm glad someone besides myself is willing to compare our present situation to what can only be called classical fascism. in an attempt to discredit all conservative philosophies, the intelligentsia has always tried to link fascism and naziism to the right end of the spectrum. the truth is that both embrace the tenets of national socialism, a path that must be more accurately ascribed to what we currently recognize as modern liberalism. we find ourselves rushing headlong into a world where the individual and his rights are secondary to the society or nation as a whole. that we are getting there through the actions of the ignorant, envious mob is of little consequence.

the saddest part is that, though the democratic party is the most strident advocate for this authoritarian nightmare, the republicans are not far behind. the reason the u.s. has always stood against such concepts as these is that the rights of individuals are the basic building block of our national identity, though we have not always been so true to those tenets. we are now joining the savages in the destruction of the individual as an important piece of the puzzle, with both major political parties doing their best to dismantle our national ethos.