DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
http://youtu.be/8gldupk0QWk the lollipopping in more detail, sorry about the shit quality...
Belladonna from Paradise Seeds
- Thread starter DrOfWelshMagic
- Start date
Counting days from first pistil is a bad comparison because all plants show pistils at different times.
You are doing it correct counting from day of switching light schedule.
They just take however long they need to finish, don't rely/depend on the breeders finish time!
Mostly Cloudy Trichomes+Swollen Calyx are the best things to look for.
You are doing it correct counting from day of switching light schedule.
They just take however long they need to finish, don't rely/depend on the breeders finish time!
Mostly Cloudy Trichomes+Swollen Calyx are the best things to look for.
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
ty very much
they're gonna be ready at around wk 10, trich dependant, I scope for 10%-15% amber trichs, helps me sleep better
but that would mean a 4 weeks flush??? will that be ok?????yes m8, from female seeds. they are week 7 of 12/12 on Monday, starting wk 8.
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
i know that the nutrients used to feed our plants are turned into sugars by the time they get to the buds and also i just read that flushing by giving only water (no flush solution), triggers the plant to finish or start finishing and if you dry your plants for an extra 5-7 days for the chlorophyl to evaporate/disperse/biodegrade, whatever it does, you can feed your plants right up to harvest.... im still undecided though seeing as im using advanced nutrients, there's so many different things going there..... i may try it on the 'lesser' looking ladies in the ww x bb grow and the mutant i have in the belladonna grow, surely it wont 'harm' them, might me after puffing on it, but they should be ok. i love these little experiments and one seems to pop up every grow......
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
well i would normally start flushing from start of week 7 through to finish, almost always 8 week strains, and have always done this. all has been fine so far but i am losing out on yield thru lack of nutes during those final 2 weeks for the sake of an extra 5 days flushing
do you flush kite and if so, when and how dude??
Kite High
Well-Known Member
I never pre-harvest flush, but I do have a "different" way of watering/feeding. But I do keep 'em green and fed til chop. the taste and smell are controlled in the drying/curing/fermentation process after the chop. This pre-harvest flush thing is a misguided process of thinking an unhealthy plant will taste better. The dispensaries I test grow strains for all quit pre-harverst flushing because my product always tasted and burned better than theirs.
And not to knock your choices but shop around for nutrients as AN is hype for your $ and not the best by any means, IMO.
And not to knock your choices but shop around for nutrients as AN is hype for your $ and not the best by any means, IMO.
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
its mainly because of their ph perfect range to be honest and i have deffo noticed better results with AN than ionic, canna and dutch pro, but those are the only 3 others i have tried, all not ph checked throughout, maybe why the better results.
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
i grow in a soilless pro mix, pre bought, have thought about using bio bizz, H & G but not considered dynagro, i will take a look at their range for sure.. cheers dude.
Kite High
Well-Known Member
psilocybindude
Well-Known Member
Have you decided what your going to do about flushing, or have you looked into that water curing any?
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
yeah m8, im not going to flush the mutant i have as she will be ready long before any of the others and can be my trial, then make a decision about the rest, should be just about time to start flushing the WW x BB by then too if i go down that tried and tested road. or, more awkward, but do half n half in each grow, just a thought but would give a good comparison for future..
not got round to looking into water curing, but i will, i dont LIKE the sound of it though to be totally honest, but as always, open to anything that works, especially if for the better.. thanks.
not got round to looking into water curing, but i will, i dont LIKE the sound of it though to be totally honest, but as always, open to anything that works, especially if for the better.. thanks.
Kite High
Well-Known Member
some factful info to help with your flush decision
From an administrator at Sensi seeds
"Advanced - Flushing
A critical look at preharvest flushing
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
From an administrator at Sensi seeds
"Advanced - Flushing
A critical look at preharvest flushing
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
phew, that was some read and very informative. thanks dude.
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
never too late my friend, even though i love the whole process, we're only just getting to the exciting part too....
