They seem scared to death about this bullets thing for some reason

[Dr Kynes]

MOre Fallacious bullshit

Not surprising
The conclusion that the 2,717 Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles are for the Department of Homeland Security is false. Instead, they are part of a contract award to the US Navy and will be subsequently used by the United States Marine Corps.
Previous contract M67854-07-D-5032 can be found here and modifications to same contract can found here.
A search for M67854-07-D-5032 at the Federal Procurement Data System reveals that all contract under this number are for the United States Navy.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41713_Fact_Checking-_Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks

More Here.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp


So again just more stupid bullshit from winter woman(?) and other right wingnut conspiracy freaks

hmm didn't you assert that in fact the APC's are USMC property, and DHS just announced the contract for the chassis refit, so they can use them to "rescue" us?

wasn't it just a few pages back?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp

Guess no story on the APCs either

"A March 2013 claim that the Department of Homeland Security had "purchased 2,700 tanks" for use in the U.S. was based on a year-old (i.e., March 2012) notice posted on the DHS web site announcing that a contractor had been engaged to install new chassis on a number of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles (not "tanks") that were being returned from deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although similar vehicles have been used by DHS (and local police forces) for functions such as carrying Rapid Response Teams to disaster sites, the DHS did not "purchase" the MRAP vehicles referenced in that announcement, and the chassis work was contracted for by the Marine Corps Systems Command." ~http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp


no, i must be imagining things.

 

[vincentgray]

No. We are at war with Iran. WTF!! It's been going on for decades, we have been hit we hit back. Now it's over? NO!!! HHS is for that gathering threat, not domestic policing.

So, fit your, "what they need" to that. We are talking about the possibility there will be takeovers of American towns. Oh, of course, not by force. That's how Al-Q moves in. They are doing this all over the world, right now. Also, here already. It starts with a little town.

My Man, the Rash Nishi cult took over a town in N. California in the 80s. Stacked the City Council and the only way we knew is they over reached. They ended up poisoning community members with salmonella the day before the election. They needed a low turn out.

And, they were only after a raw dairy variance.

Al-Q is much more savy than that. They have been successful in setting up, buying their way in and defending their areas from the local forces. Oh, here it's Different.

Is it? Is it too far fetched to imagine an American town coopted secretly to Jihad? That the source of all this weird internal terror is traced to that?

And when confronted they are prepared to fight? But, until then they hide and payola tax schemes with drug gangs for protections and weapons? And cover themselves with LAW and freedom of RELIGION?

If you can't at least consider the possibility, then how blind is that?

Simply LOL...

 

[deprave]

Ok, I actually looked into the APC thing and I would say its likely but there isn't really a good source on it, There is some reputable places that have a writeup on it but even the forbes magazine and huffpo articles trace back to the same half-ass sources, there really isn't any hard evidence, still the bullets are interesting though.

What I found looking for sources on the "tanks"

These are the couple sources which literally everything on the internet trace back to:

Everything traces back to these press releases on the same contract where they sometimes misquote 2700 but really its 2717 of these vehicles:
http://www.defenseprocurementnews.com/2012/03/15/navistar-defense-receives-mrap-installation-order-press-release/
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4701
http://media.navistar.com/index.php?s=43&item=533

The Denial:
"Homeland Security Today" which labels itself “the leading source for independent news and analysis on homeland security affairs” http://www.hstoday.us/about-us.html
In this second article they say they have 32.

Many articles cite this as only 16, the 16 number is copy/pasted a bajillion tmes, but they left out the quote about the other 16.

 

[ChesusRice]

Ok, I actually looked into the APC thing and I would say its likely but there isn't really a good source on it, There is some reputable places that have a writeup on it but even the forbes magazine and huffpo articles trace back to the same half-ass sources, there really isn't any hard evidence, still the bullets are interesting though.

What I found looking for sources on the "tanks"

These are the couple sources which literally everything on the internet trace back to:

Everything traces back to these press releases on the same contract where they sometimes misquote 2700 but really its 2717 of these vehicles:
http://www.defenseprocurementnews.com/2012/03/15/navistar-defense-receives-mrap-installation-order-press-release/
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4701
http://media.navistar.com/index.php?s=43&item=533

The Denial:
"Homeland Security Today" which labels itself “the leading source for independent news and analysis on homeland security affairs” http://www.hstoday.us/about-us.html
In this second article they say they have 32.

Many articles cite this as only 16, the 16 number is copy/pasted a bajillion tmes, but they left out the quote about the other 16.

HERE is the acutal contract

The DHS is not buying 2700 armored vehicles
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4701

Last sentence First paragraph
The original contract was competitively procured. The Marine Corps Systems
Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity.

 

[deprave]

HERE is the acutal contract

The DHS is not buying 2700 armored vehicles
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4701

Last sentence First paragraph
The original contract was competitively procured. The Marine Corps Systems
Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity.

Hey that is exactly the link I posted ...

 

[ChesusRice]

Hey that is exactly the link I posted ...

Glad we are on the same page

I estimate 3 hours before someone debunks the actual contract for both the bullets and the MRAPs and states that the DHS is also buying hellfire equipped drones to blow up grow ops

 

[deprave]

Glad we are on the same page

Believe me We aren't on the same page.

 

[Doer]

It will be quite useful in Rescuing us from ideologically impure thoughts, or from the tyranny of dissenters.

I for one welcome our new DHS overlords.

It's about damn time. Look at State. They still play the finger point game. That the way our home defense was organized, until Homeland Security was elevated to a Cabinet Post.

 

[ChesusRice]

Believe me We aren't on the same page.

So the bullet conspiracy is debunked
the APC/MRAP conspiracy is debunked

How are we not on the same page as this?

Oh I forgot. Ron Paul still has a chance of winning

 

[Canna Sylvan]

So the bullet conspiracy is debunked
the APC/MRAP conspiracy is debunked

How are we not on the same page as this?

Oh I forgot. Ron Paul still has a chance of winning

You keep watching the right hand, which is what they want. You never even peek at the left hand where the coin has been all along.

 

[Dr Kynes]

So the bullet conspiracy is debunked
the APC/MRAP conspiracy is debunked

How are we not on the same page as this?

Oh I forgot. Ron Paul still has a chance of winning

"the bullet conspiracy" is not debunked, they have contracted for BILLIONS of rounds, and the "Debunking" is just thin shabby excuses . fletc does NOT use almost 2x the number of rounds in training that the USMC every year. the coast guard ice and customs COULD use the volume of rounds attributed to them, but it's doubtful, and stockpiling for freshness is not debunking. They didnt try the most logical explanation, "we are replacing our old stocks with new shit to ensure serviceability" , nor do they seem to be selling the old shit on the surplus market, so im still dubious.

they HAVE acquired 2700+ APC's through a deal with the USMC for their retired "rolling stock"

"Navistar Defense, L.L.C., Warrenville, Ill., is being awarded an $879,923,195 firm-fixed-priced delivery order 0023 under previously awarded contract (M67854-07-D-5032) for the procurement of 2,717 units of rolling chassis; 10 engineering change proposals; and 25 contract data requirements lists, for MaxxPro Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles. Work will be performed in West Point, Miss., and is expected to be completed by the end of October 2013. Procurement funds in the amount of $879,923,195 will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The original contract was competitively procured. The Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity."

which will be used by DHS despite remaining nominally under the ownership of the dept of defense. your previous assertion that they would be used by the US Navy is manufactured out of whole cloth.

Snopes "debunked" the story on the details :

they arent actually tanks (despite being described as such in the newswire headlines)
they arent actually being "BOUGHT" but rather simple acquired though a loan of hardware
the contract DHS published was originated by the USMC, not DHS.

but when the job is done DHS WILL be rolling around in MRAP's, and thus the story is TRUE but distorted in the details from the media's own shoddy coverage. alex jones just grabbed the story and ran with it, exxagferating the "Tankness" of the vehicles and crafting terror stories, but thats what he always does, and thats why i dont give a shit about him. REPUTABLE sources made siimliar (but less overtly sinister) assertions as well, and Tom Sullivan (syndicated financial radio host and former LEO) expressed entirely un-AlexJonesey concern over this issue before it ecame a conspiracy theory to be debunked with even shakier half truths than alex jones uses to inflate it.

and then theres the new sturmgewehrs....

DHS needs a whole new line and design of ultracompact machine guns firing the considerably more powerful 5.56nato round (a king among handgun rounds, but a pissant among rifle chamberings) suitable for close combat, and capable of firing AP ammo, because their current line of arms are insufficient to the task. therefore i must assume they are anticipating facing a great many close quarters engagements with opposition in body armor, or they are planning to ensure that they are ready for an upcoming alien invasion.

 

[Harrekin]

"the bullet conspiracy" is not debunked, they have contracted for BILLIONS of rounds, and the "Debunking" is just thin shabby excuses . fletc does NOT use almost 2x the number of rounds in training that the USMC every year. the coast guard ice and customs COULD use the volume of rounds attributed to them, but it's doubtful, and stockpiling for freshness is not debunking. They didnt try the most logical explanation, "we are replacing our old stocks with new shit to ensure serviceability" , nor do they seem to be selling the old shit on the surplus market, so im still dubious.

they HAVE acquired 2700+ APC's through a deal with the USMC for their retired "rolling stock"

"Navistar Defense, L.L.C., Warrenville, Ill., is being awarded an $879,923,195 firm-fixed-priced delivery order 0023 under previously awarded contract (M67854-07-D-5032) for the procurement of 2,717 units of rolling chassis; 10 engineering change proposals; and 25 contract data requirements lists, for MaxxPro Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles. Work will be performed in West Point, Miss., and is expected to be completed by the end of October 2013. Procurement funds in the amount of $879,923,195 will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The original contract was competitively procured. The Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity."

which will be used by DHS despite remaining nominally under the ownership of the dept of defense. your previous assertion that they would be used by the US Navy is manufactured out of whole cloth.

Snopes "debunked" the story on the details :

they arent actually tanks (despite being described as such in the newswire headlines)
they arent actually being "BOUGHT" but rather simple acquired though a loan of hardware
the contract DHS published was originated by the USMC, not DHS.

but when the job is done DHS WILL be rolling around in MRAP's, and thus the story is TRUE but distorted in the details from the media's own shoddy coverage. alex jones just grabbed the story and ran with it, exxagferating the "Tankness" of the vehicles and crafting terror stories, but thats what he always does, and thats why i dont give a shit about him. REPUTABLE sources made siimliar (but less overtly sinister) assertions as well, and Tom Sullivan (syndicated financial radio host and former LEO) expressed entirely un-AlexJonesey concern over this issue before it ecame a conspiracy theory to be debunked with even shakier half truths than alex jones uses to inflate it.

and then theres the new sturmgewehrs....

DHS needs a whole new line and design of ultracompact machine guns firing the considerably more powerful 5.56nato round (a king among handgun rounds, but a pissant among rifle chamberings) suitable for close combat, and capable of firing AP ammo, because their current line of arms are insufficient to the task. therefore i must assume they are anticipating facing a great many close quarters engagements with opposition in body armor, or they are planning to ensure that they are ready for an upcoming alien invasion.

5.7 x 28 would be better for that purpose.

100% damage bonus against Jaffa too.

 

[ChesusRice]

5.7 x 28 would be better for that purpose.

100% damage bonus against Jaffa too.

They outlawed the AP rounds for import as soon as the gun came here. Then some douche on ar15.com pointed out that the non ap rounds penetrated vests just as well

 

[Dr Kynes]

They outlawed the AP rounds for import as soon as the gun came here. Then some douche on ar15.com pointed out that the non ap rounds penetrated vests just as well

the use and possession of AP bullets by US citizens is strictly controlled, and has been for a long time. AP rounds gain their penetrative power through bullet design, and NOTHING else.

rifles and ultra high velocity intermediate rounds gain their penetration through velocity, not bullet design.

most body armor cant stop a 5.56nato FMJ, and very few will even slow a .308 down. AP rifle bullets are for penetrating steel and concrete, not soft ballistic vests or other body armor.

to stop a .223 or 5.56 nato you need bulky body armor not the soft protective gear worn by cops to stop relatively inoffensive pistol rounds.

DHS may be ordering these new machine guns in aniticpation of facing more badguys with body armour, but since badguys wearing actual body armor is uncommon, the question remains.

Edit: and a handloader (like myself) can make their own AP rounds fairly easily if they so desire. the ban only prevents AP bullets from landing in the hands of droogs and criminals, since they tend to be lazy and indolent.

making your own steel or bronze core bullets would be work, and criminals become criminals to avoid work.

 

[Doer]

Well, I have gone back and forth about a home load. The best is a frangible round, And, I like the idea of these modern, star hole hollow points. But, it's very stigmatized and I keep up with my states track record on jury trials about this.

So, then I think the best is a wad-cutter, target round. But, then I worry about over penetration. (It's like eating prunes, is 2 enough, is 3 too many? )

IAC, how do you consider the steel core in an SKS round? Does that make it AP?

 

[Canna Sylvan]

I was watching this video. Are we going to legislate a cooling off period for printers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Dr Kynes]

Well, I have gone back and forth about a home load. The best is a frangible round, And, I like the idea of these modern, star hole hollow points. But, it's very stigmatized and I keep up with my states track record on jury trials about this.

So, then I think the best is a wad-cutter, target round. But, then I worry about over penetration. (It's like eating prunes, is 2 enough, is 3 too many? )

IAC, how do you consider the steel core in an SKS round? Does that make it AP?

all hollowpoints are designed to expand, to deliver their force on the target. controlled expansion hollowpoints (my fave) are all designed to do it better. and if you have to shoot a bastard, doing it better is a benefit.

the "steel core" in most 7.62 russian shorties is actually not a real steel core, and not an AP design.





the "steel core" is actually just a deformation resistant steel jacket do maintain bullet shape, and increase penetration on soft targets and medium cover.

Lead-Steel-Cupronickel.

lead in the core for mass- steel core to prevent deformation - copper jacket to reduce rifling wear and get a positive seal on the barrel.

below is an actual AP bullet:





a big steel penetrator, a little lead for mass, with a cupronickel jacket to reduce lead fouling and get a positive seal on the riflings.

the steel jacket in many 7.62x39 rounds wont help it get through even soft body armor, but it will help it pass through walls and whatnot, making steel core ammo a LESS useful choice for home defense, but a superior choice for storming a barricaded residence. it still wont do much against most body armor, and will be highly ineffective against actual armor plating, automotive structural and engine components, or other forms of cover which a real AP round is designed to ablate or outright defeat.

handgun rounds, buckshot and the 7.62x39 russian shorty do their job through a heavy bullet at moderate speeds with a large face area to deliver the force of impact. soft body armor defeats this type of ammo fairly well

to penetrate body armor, simply use a real rifle. MUCH higher velocities + much smaller face area to mass ratio = much greater force on smaller area, which results in penetration.

steel penetrators are there in real AP ammo to ensure that the projectile doesnt spread out when it hits a target, and can continue on it's way without spending it's force on expansion.

 

[ChesusRice]

[video=youtube;ESElG05Ud1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESElG05Ud1s[/video]

 

[Dr Kynes]

pointless video removed for reply

this means nothing.

the 5.7 x28 is NOT an AP round, and IIIA is NOT rated to the 5.56nato/223 which the 5.7x28 is designed to emulate in a smaller package.

IIIA will also not stop a 12 ga flechette round, though it is quite effective at stopping shotgun slugs and shot.

the 5.7 is a needle moving at high speed, not a round designed to drop an attacker on his butt.

IIIA body armor will also not stop a stilletto, a rapier, a .308 hunting rifle round, a longbow using bodkin arrows, a crossbow bolt, lightning strikes, alien death rays, and meteorite impacts.

many years ago when cops in kevlar body armor was first hitting the streets, their vests were proven to be INEFFECTIVE against a .22 magnum at close range, but highly effective against the .45 or .9mm.

outside the dubious utility of penetrating a cop's vest, the 5.7x28 is not particularly good at putting targets on their asses (and neither is the 5.56 nato or a 9mm ++P FMJ) or putting game in the larder.

what you think this oddity of a round poking a hole in some body armor at close range, when it's laying on a gravel bed (which helps the round penetrate by reducing the kevlar's stretch) proves is a mystery.

would you care to elucidate?

 

[cannabineer]

test ... cn