• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Christian Apologetics in Action...

mudminer

Active Member
I didn't intend to start another banal thread about the existence of a god. I meant to illustrate how people will twist a verse that is very straight forward to mean the opposite of what it says just because it doesn't fit into their world view. I will say though, my christian friends used to always talk to me about god and try to get me to believe. It was almost always emotional appeals. I got pissed off when, after I had my son, they tried to use him as a way to coerce me into converting or believing in something that I can't believe in. I remained friends with them, but let them know that I thought that was in very bad taste. Several of them cut ties with me soon after that. I guess they thought if the birth of a son can't save him... then the devil must have a hold on him, lol.
excellent example of how rare "true friendship" really is. sounds like morons....oops....sorry.... i mean mormons. theyll treat you like gold until they decide youre not the least bit vulnerable to their tactics. even to the point of using your children to get to you. even if they manage to baptize the kids into their belief system, when they see that it wont sway mom n dad (the ones who will bring in the money) theyll drop you like a red hot golden tablet. even the "converted" children.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
a link? really? there is no link. the Bible...there's your link. If you are married and you slept with someone else, you would be stoned to death. or in Dinah's case it really ticked off her whole family that Dinah did that so they killed the whole family of that guy. and something else, in the day of Jesus, those people that if you were having sex with your husband and thinking of another man (or GOD) that you would be pregnant by that thought of person. That's why so many women were pregnant by GOD.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
excellent example of how rare "true friendship" really is. sounds like morons....oops....sorry.... i mean mormons. theyll treat you like gold until they decide youre not the least bit vulnerable to their tactics. even to the point of using your children to get to you. even if they manage to baptize the kids into their belief system, when they see that it wont sway mom n dad (the ones who will bring in the money) theyll drop you like a red hot golden tablet. even the "converted" children.
funny. thats not my experience with mormons.

every couple of years one or two will pop by, touch base and then leave, and i havent been to a mormon church since i was 12. (psst that was a long time ago....)
they arent butthurt at all, they just check to see if im still apostate, then check off their "Yep, Still Apostate" box on the form, and roll on.
 

Theophilus

Well-Known Member
Those that are truly interested would do well to take a course in biblical hermeneutics (the art and science of biblical interpretation). Upon doing so, you may learn the principle of historic narrative vs didactic renderings of scripture or any literature for that matter. Is the passage descriptive or prescriptive in nature? Is it describing something that took place in a certain culture at a point in time or was it something prescribed for all people for all time?

One rule when reading the bible for all it's worth is to never read just one verse. Unfortunately, many people will take a text out of context to form a pretext in support of their preconceived ideas, which in reality is all to easy to do. One sentence or one phrase outside of a paragraph can have a completely different meaning unless it is read in context of the surrounding ideas found elsewhere in the bible. For instance, wine is not always condemned. In fact, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding. We even see a 'medicinal' use for wine in scripture. But also a very clear condemnation toward simply getting drunk or out of control.

Proverbs 3:10
So your barns will be filled with plenty. And your vats will overflow with new wine.

1 Timothy 5:23
No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine [c]or fond of sordid gain.

Titus 1:7
For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain.

Romans 13:13
Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:3
For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

Proverbs 23:20-21
20 Do not be with heavy drinkers of wine, Or with gluttonous eaters of meat;
21 For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe one with rags.

Proverbs 26:10
Like an archer who wounds everyone, So is he who hires a fool or who hires those who pass by.

1 Peter 5:8
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

So there is certainly no reason to "scramble" in reference to the aforementioned passage in Proverbs 31, as it poses no problem whatsoever for Christian ethics or biblical inspiration when compared to other passages that deal with the topic.


Commentaries given on passage:

Eerdmans Bible Commentary–
Drink is the anodyne of the hopeless -- there is no excuse for it for those who are not in this condition (vv. 6, 7).

The Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary–
The proper use of such drinks is to restore tone to feeble bodies and depressed minds (cf. Ps. 104:15).

Matthew Henry Commentary–
v. 6, 7. "Thou hast wine or strong drink at command; instead of doing thyself hurt with it, do others good with it; let those have it that need it.’’ Those that have wherewithal must not only give bread to the hungry and water to the thirsty, but they must give strong drink to him that is ready to perish through sickness or pain and wine to those that are melancholy and of heavy heart; for it was appointed to cheer and revive the spirits, and make glad the heart (as it does where there is need of it), not to burden and oppress the spirits, as it does where there is no need of it. We must deny ourselves in the gratifications of sense, that we may have to spare for the relief of the miseries of others, and be glad to see our superfluities and dainties better bestowed upon those whom they will be a real kindness to than upon ourselves whom they will be a real injury to. Let those that are ready to perish drink soberly, and it will be a means so to revive their drooping spirits that they will forget their poverty for the time and remember their misery no more, and so they will be the better able to bear it. The Jews say that upon this was grounded the practice of giving a stupifying drink to condemned prisoners when they were going to execution, as they did to our Saviour. But the scope of the place is to show that wine is a cordial, and therefore to be used for want and not for wantonness, by those only that need cordials, as Timothy, who is advised to drink a little wine, only for his stomach’s sake and his often infirmities, 1 Tim. 5:23.
 

OldGrowth420

Well-Known Member
I found this verse several months ago and have had a lot of fun with it, especially with Baptists.

Proverbs 31:6-7

Ask them about this verse and watch them scramble and just wait for the incredible BS they try to convince themselves of.

Usually the first question is.. "what translation is that?" For some reason any translation will do most anytime, except when it comes to this verse... then it has to be King James Version... otherwise it just doesn't count.

Then they usually say try to twist the words around to mean something else, saying that I'm taking it out of context, but the verse is VERY clear and straightforward about what it means. Read the surrounding verses.

The next argument is the "fruit of the vine" argument. "Wine back then wasn't like the wine we have now. It was really just juice."

Then finally the more informed ones will say Solomon wrote the book of Proverbs and he had hundreds of concubines, etc. etc. implying that his wisdom should be questioned. Well,... then you might as well chuck the whole book of Proverbs then yeah? And if one book is discredited... then maybe the entire book ISN'T inspired by God. You don't get to pick and choose, lol. Also. it's in the old testamwnt so it doesn't apply anymore... but the ten commandments do?

Hope you guys and gals have fun with this one. It's brought me hours of fun.

[h=3]Proverbs 31:6-7[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

I fail to see what is wrong with this scripture, those in anguish and those who are dying should be comforted by all means.


[h=3]1 Timothy 5:23[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

The ten commandments are good moral guidelines, but when Christ came He fulfilled the law, we are no longer bound by it. Therefore rendering the ten commandments and the rest of the law derelict.


[h=3]Romans 6:14[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.




Keep searching, and you will find what you are looking for.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Proverbs 31:6-7

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

I fail to see what is wrong with this scripture, those in anguish and those who are dying should be comforted by all means.


1 Timothy 5:23

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

The ten commandments are good moral guidelines, but when Christ came He fulfilled the law, we are no longer bound by it. Therefore rendering the ten commandments and the rest of the law derelict.


Romans 6:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.




Keep searching, and you will find what you are looking for.
Yeah, more scripture is always the answer. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzz...
 

NietzscheKeen

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the other verses. I will have to share them with others. I do have to disagree with people when they say the Old Testament doesn't matter anymore because Jesus came.
 

kpmarine

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the other verses. I will have to share them with others. I do have to disagree with people when they say the Old Testament doesn't matter anymore because Jesus came.
Especially considering the fact that Jesus never specified which rules from the OT were gone. Then there's that "I didn't come to end the law, just to fulfill it." part to make it even more confusing. I'd be inclined to think this "bible" may not be as well coordinated as some think.
 

abalonehx

Well-Known Member
OH YE of abundant faith and little logical sense!... Bless you with magic ! Magick! Ancient Jewish Zombie Magick! ,....Amazing this shit is still believed in 2013!
 
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