Lamp Luminous Flux(lm)?? The higher ther better or No?? Help if ya can

[guod]

lumen of blue and red leds...

http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-weprb3-s1-power-led-star-royalblau-450nm-3w-35lm.html
http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-wepbl3-s1-power-led-star-blau-470nm-3w-35lm.html
http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-weprd3-s1-power-led-star-rot-625nm-3w-100lm.html
http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-wepdr3-s1-power-led-star-tiefrot-650nm-3w-45lm.html

CCT for 660nm

X-Coordinate ~ 0.73
Y-Coordinate ~ 0.27

CCT for 450nm

X-Coordinate ~ 0.15
Y-Coordinate ~ 0.0

you can express any light in lumen if you know the spectrum...
...in Kelvin its a little bit harder..

and here is a spectrum of a light with a CRI of 100


rethink your color theory!

 

[RB1956]

WOW calm down peeps..lol.. Just a simple ??? but if everything on the light is the same but the amount of lumens it pushes out well the one with the higher lumens is clearly better.. Well IMO, but im not a genius so I may be wrong..

 

[stardustsailor]

SDS you take this subject on exquisitely by doling out the science that supports the physics of light as electromagnetic radiant energy and you do a wonderful job of statistically correlating that energy to plant photobiology. I commend your patience as I think you handle the topic deftly albeit with a decidedly SSL bias. But nonetheless the community is better for it as you impart what should be at least recognized by any grower reading this, it is information that distinguishes the differences between plant and visual lighting. Without that acknowledgment and/or at least the the opportunity to question the visual data given by lighting manufacturers most growers would determine what light to use based on the highest number given in values such as luminous flux, kelvin, lumens, etc.

Light is a complex topic and while your answers tend to require the average reader to go well beyond their capabilities it is information that when broken down makes sense. I don't see it as pontificating or your being on a soap box. People will take from it what they can or ignore it entirely if it's over their heads. But it's there and you are to be thanked for sharing this information.

And if I may reference your previous car analogies, we don't use a thermometer to measure how many liters of fuel we put in our car. I'll get the temperature of the fuel and I with that information I may successfully make it from say Hanover to Kiel but it won't be because I knew the temperature of the fuel going into the tank. You got to Kiel because you had enough fuel to get you there. Pointing to a value that had little to no relevance in accomplishing that trip would be akin to stating your grow was successful because your light produces a higher lumen/watt. A luxometer would be the thermometer of plant lighting meters as they are designed to provide data falling within human visual responses which, like the temperature of my fuel, is not correlative to plant absorption and action spectra.

Ultimately the plants speak for themselves. Repeatability of techniques that prove successful is what makes growing your own, whatever the crop, rewarding. With lighting being a key element in that equation it is incumbent upon the grower who wishes to optimize quality/yield while reducing operational costs to have the data that will allow them to build upon past success.

Thank you !
Right to the "point " ....

My biggest fault ,is that while I possess the basic scientific knowledge ,needed in order to "de-code " -all or most of the
"rough " topics/issues about light ( yes,with a definite SSL bias ) ,at same time ,I assume that everybody else has the same "basic" knowledge ..
That is a mistake ....

I guess I realy have to try harder and "transform" such heavy tech info ,into more "simplistic " information ....
But sometimes this is almost impossible ....



Info-tip : A luxometer would be the thermometer of plant lighting meters as they are designed to provide data falling within human visual responses.

Even if a luxmeter ,had some use in horticulture ...Still leds need special designed luxmeters ..
Ordinary ones ,will give false readings/measurements....

 

[chazbolin]

Expressing the value in lumens is not the issue. It's taking measurements with photopically corrected meters, calibrated to a specific kelvin value, that does not make sense in determining if the lamp is meeting spectral quality and intensity values that are identified as being necessary to meet our plants optimum photosynthetic absorption/action needs.

Ideally I would like to see a new value established that for plant lighting would replace lumens with something like a PAR lumens which would weight the lamps output relevant to the plants action/absorption spectra.

 

[stardustsailor]

lumen of blue and red leds...

http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-weprb3-s1-power-led-star-royalblau-450nm-3w-35lm.html
http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-wepbl3-s1-power-led-star-blau-470nm-3w-35lm.html
http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-weprd3-s1-power-led-star-rot-625nm-3w-100lm.html
http://www.led1.de/shop/winger-power-leds/winger-power-leds-3w/winger-wepdr3-s1-power-led-star-tiefrot-650nm-3w-45lm.html

Guod,those are Asian-made leds ....
Which Asians ,lack the expensive equipment ,needed to radiometrically measure their leds ...
(One of the reasons ,their leds lack binning / grouping .... )
So they use luxmeters ,even for their monochromatics ....
(Cause Asians do know ,that their-cheap- leds ,are not going to be used in any serious Scientific or Industrial application .... )

For what reason Osram or Cree will give Photometric values for their monochromatic leds ?
Where a Royal blue or a Deep Red led is/will be used for serving human vision purposes ?

(Always talking about high-power leds ,not indicators aka epoxy leds --
Except stage lights , big led monitors/screens and some few other really special purposes like decoration , mixed with white leds to produce a high CRI light etc- )

CCT for 660nm

X-Coordinate ~ 0.73
Y-Coordinate ~ 0.27

CCT for 450nm

X-Coordinate ~ 0.15
Y-Coordinate ~ 0.0

you can express any light in lumen if you know the spectrum...
...in Kelvin its a little bit harder..

Yes ...Ok ...CCT is another thing from CRI ....
I did not mention CCT ,for monochromatics ..
I was talking about CRI ....

What is the CRI (Ra ) of a 660 nm led ?

and here is a spectrum of a light with a CRI of 100
View attachment 2658616

rethink your color theory!

If that goes to me ....
In what way to re-think my color theory ?

I do not see any point that we're having a disagreement ,on anything of what you've posted ....

More like ,what you 've posted ,backs-up my "color theory" ,at 100 % .....

 

[stardustsailor]

WOW calm down peeps..lol.. Just a simple ??? but if everything on the light is the same but the amount of lumens it pushes out well the one with the higher lumens is clearly better.. Well IMO, but im not a genius so I may be wrong..

The one & only case ....
Correct !

 

[chazbolin]

This is an area I'm a little unclear on. Perhaps SDS can explain.

I understand CCT to be a Color Corrected Temperature but why does it need to be corrected in the first place? What is it's relevance, if any, to CRI?

My understanding of CRI is that it is the Color Rendering Index that defines the most accurate and highest value light (100 CRI) as interpreted by the human eye from a reflected surface will come from the sun @ high noon on a cloudless day. Again this is a value that I would not see as a beneficial matrix in when considering plant light needs since it would be weighted to human vision and high in the 520-610nm regions. Can you elaborate?

WOW calm down peeps..lol.. Just a simple ??? but if everything on the light is the same but the amount of lumens it pushes out well the one with the higher lumens is clearly better.. Well IMO, but im not a genius so I may be wrong..

No one gets to worked up over this stuff. At least I don't. I like to learn and spirited dialogue is not meant to be calming but inspiring. When I want calm I have to get off this keyboard and go sit in my zen room which just so happens to house my plants.

 

[guod]

I understand CCT to be a Color Corrected Temperature but why does it need to be corrected in the first place? What is it's relevance, if any, to CRI?

CCT = Correlated Color Temperature

 

[stardustsailor]

Correlated Color Temperature : CCT is the color temperature of a black body radiator which to human color reception most closely matches the light from the lamp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlated_color_temperature#Correlated_color_temperature

http://www.dfisica.ubi.pt/~hgil/FotoMetria/HandBook/ch05.html


CRI is what you've stated ,more or less ....


Both are serving human vision purposes again ....
But they are much more useful units/indexes ,for horticulture ,than photometric power units ....


CCT is a guide ( x,y ) of which part of spectrum dominates in a light ....
( Easy to find using the CIE 1931 CCT graph )







CRI ,is an indicator of how " rich " is a light in certain wls/colors ...
No matter from its CCT ...

You can have two light sources with same CCT ,but with different CRI ...

CRI will indicate ,which of the two light sources ,is "fuller " at certain wl ranges ( Ra is white ,R1-R14 are different colors... ) ..


They are not used to express power ...


They have more to do with a light's spectrum ...

Still nothing beats radiometric units and Absolute power spectral graphs .

Unfortunately ....
Both kept as proprietary /trade secrets from big led brands / manufacturers .....


Still ..
Show must go on .....

 

[stardustsailor]

CCT : A rough example to understand ...

You are in a room ...
In the center of the room is a big square block of steel,sitting on an Infra-red heater.
(no visible light can be emitted by this heater ,hypothetically ) .

Lights go off .

You are not able to see sh..

..Ok ?

Now ...

Heater starts to heat steel ....
( Ambient is i.e. 25 ° C-it does not matter ,that much ... )


Still you do not see anything ...Complete darkness ...

Steel now has reached 500°C .....

600° C ....
700° C ...
800° C ...
Oopppssss ..Something starts to be visible ....

A dark red -barely visible- light is starting to be seen coming from the steel block ...


At ~ 1730 °C ( 2000 K ) ,you are pretty sure by now ,that steel is emitting a really warm deep orange-red light ....
(Actually it happens in much lower temps for steel... )

As temperature of steel rises ,light becomes brighter to you ( cause of "power " ? Or because of another reason ? )...

Light starts to become more and more white ....

At ~5225 ° C (steel has melted by now ..Inside a ceramic bowl -I forgot to mention .... ) -5500° K ,
steel now emits a bright neutral ( " Daylight" ) light ......

Whole room is lit brightly,now ... ( ...and the A/C working at max ..Ha-ha...).......

There ...I've told you the reason why it becomes brighter .....

Anyway .....


While you are spending the same amount of energy to continuously heat the steel (rise it's temperature ) ...
( Watts of heater x time ) ...

So :

- How the heck light becomes more "powerful " ,while energy source supplies steel with same energy .... ?

Lumens of melted steel keep rising ,while power of heater is not !

Radiometrically ,if measured (light6 from steel ) is going to be the same amount like the source's energy .
You gave x amount of energy ,you got same back as light ...

( here we have to mention that the steel block is considered as ideal "black body radiator " .)


So what happens with your eyes ?

How on Earth light starts to become(appear ) more and more bright to you ,without extra energy spend ?


huh ?

....


Tip : From barely visible deep red to bright white .....

Some colors where added ....

Does anybody know more or less how that is happening ?

Electron Excitation ..
They start "jumping" "back 'n forth " from lower to higher states of energy (from heat )..
Releasing photons at every "jump back'n'forth..

As material keeps receiving energy ,overall "base energy state " is keep rising ....

So at a point ,photons being made ,have/contain more and more energy in them ....

Red =>amber=>yellow=>green=> blue=>violet=> uv ....
From lower to higher energy photons .....

So ,while metal block heats up ,more photons of higher energy state are being emitted ...
(power stays the same .....2000 Watts you gave steel in form of heat ?
2000 Watts of photons you'll get back ....
Number of photons change and not the overall amount of light's power ...
More simple ? Spectrum is " shifting " ....)


So for humans becomes brighter light ...Mainly cause of green photons ....

Further heating .....
At plasma state ...

Steel now emits UV ,microwaves ,x-rays ,gamma-rays .....


Actually the sun is a big block of Iron ( the core ) , in such plasma state (fussion ) ....

You know the rest ..More or less ......

 

[jubiare]

But the way you put down things.. I don't understand things most times

Call me stupid but.. I'd rather be stupid..

Or you don't have the love for reaching the people (in fact you call them stupid Ahahah)

But this is like heightening your mind to a nearly super human level

Or listen to this, a quote from my old teacher.. A genius:

If someone is telling you something and you don't understand what the hell they are talking about...
...neither do they.

 

[jubiare]

Again, I don't disregard your theories but I don't get all of it.. So make an effort for getting them down if you care?
And stop your superiority thing.. Ego prevails?

The ideas are from the universe and whether you are called knna SDS or fuckARE or whatever.. It doesn't really matter

It's a connection of ideas and things from individuals but it's not me me me ... It's rather us us us

That's why I miss knnas posts: the humility and the clarity and the top notch factual understanding of the field!

 

[jubiare]

Here it's more like a bloody competition sometimes...
It's horrible, and must admit I got caught up with it.

Mm mm .... Eh!

 

[stardustsailor]

If someone is telling you something and you don't understand what the hell they are talking about...
...neither do they.

Yeap...It has lots of truth ...The deeper you go ,the more complicated it gets ....
You think "I found it,at last " only to discover that you found just the next step ..The next door ....
So ...Yeah ...It's true ...Most of times ....If someone is telling you something and you don't understand..

....what the hell they are talking about....

Well ...Even if they do ....Or they think they do ....
Well ..
Life's full of surprises ....
Unpredictable ....
But ,there's where all the beauty is ...



Or you don't have the love for reaching the people

Yeah ...
Do not forget ..
Along with a mind heighten ,to a nearly super human level,I possess a huge Ego ...

I let people reach me ....

Love ?

WTF ?

Am I the only one who thinks ,that this word has an unknown to many,rather ambiguous meaning
and is overestimated ...

Love ....

Ya know what ?

If you can't see the love in a maniac's ...monitor ...
(or a genious .."borders" are not so well defined ,afterall ...) who sits for endless hours ,
researching and experimenting ,expanding -for free ,no profit there - a community's knowledge basis or whatever ...

If you're getting stuck with / to my attitude or behaviour ...

Then ,my brother for sure you 're seeing the tree and missing the forest ....
Or / And ...

....Probably......

....you differ not much from me ....

...
No offence .

 

[stardustsailor]

Again, I don't disregard your theories but I don't get all of it.. So make an effort for getting them down if you care?
And stop your superiority thing.. Ego prevails?

The ideas are from the universe and whether you are called knna SDS or fuckARE or whatever.. It doesn't really matter

It's a connection of ideas and things from individuals but it's not me me me ... It's rather us us us

That's why I miss knnas posts: the humility and the clarity and the top notch factual understanding of the field!

Well ,I'm not Knna ..

Either you get used to it ..
Or simply you do not read my posts ...

Time is pressing me a lot ,sometimes ...
Other times I feel knda this ,kinda that ....
I'm definately not a good guy for company or at least pleasant to be with ...
I'm fuckin egoist , paranoic , cynical ,shelfish and " raw " ...

Happy ,now ?


Still ,You're sitting here complaining that you really do not get all the info ....

Google it ,bro ...

Do some research for yourself ,if you do not get everything ...

I'm sure you know some newbies ,
that if it was for you to jump out of their monitors and grow their weed from start to end ,they would give anything for that to happen ....

I give the amount of "food " I can ....
In the way I can .....

Don't ask from me to "cook" it ,or make it taste nice ,or even chew it ,for ya ...

Just take it or leave it ...

If you miss Knna ,go review his posts ...

If you F.... hate the way I'm expressing what I'm saying ,do not ,F... read it ,For God's shake ...

Is that simple enough for ya ?

 

[jubiare]

So fierce about the ego eh

I don't like mine, I despise it.. I think I am full of shit and laugh about myself when I am down that road eheh

Anyway we all have our reasons and different opinions that's fine

But I do love the stupids and the retarded
As the geniuses!

And love you too a little bit riu companion

But yeah I don't know what love is either I suppose

We all come out of "separation" from the womb
Ultimately, we all want "reunion"

We suffer and we burn one
Life is a beautiful thing

 

[stardustsailor]

So fierce about the ego eh

I don't like mine, I despise it.. I think I am full of shit and laugh about myself when I am down that road eheh

Anyway we all have our reasons and different opinions that's fine

But I do love the stupids and the retarded
As the geniuses!

And love you too a little bit riu companion

But yeah I don't know what love is either I suppose

We all come out of "separation" from the womb
Ultimately, we all want "reunion"

We suffer and we burn one
Life is a beautiful thing

Now that was unexpected ....

Concentrated wisdom ?

See ?

I never thought that you're stupid-neither I think samewise for nobody,else ....

You already know great things ...
Maybe the greatest ...

 

[stardustsailor]

Oh ...Definately it not my day today ....
I'm really touchy ....

I'm not going to excuse myself for being an @$$hole ....
(I hope it's only from times to times and not a permanent situation ...hmmmm...)

Well .....

Maybe I should stop replying to posts ....

Maybe just limit my " actions" onto writing articles ..

" Heavy " ones ,sometimes ...

If so .....
..... May " Google search " be with you ....