Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Im just going by the 260 business days in a year divided by 7 = 37 weeks.
37*50=1850
But I think we can both agree that 2600 hours is a bit of a stretch.
Got it. When I worked "business days" wasn't the criterion. We worked on most holidays, and 50x40 was a pretty good figure of merit.

OH! I see where you made a probable math error. 260 days x 8 hours is 2080 hours, which would be 52 weeks x 40 hours, not even a vacation.
But I deduce that you seem to have neglected to realize that the 260 business days figure has no provision for weekend, making for a 56-hour "workweek" without the reflexive subtraction for the weekend. tell me what you think ... cn
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Evidently you don't understand that the multiplier is achieved by deposits, on which interest is paid.
I will reply to your post, but its a reply to both of you . I am not picking on you.

So a bank gets a deposit of $1,000 and pays .01% interest on it. The banks then borrow that money 10 times over and receive interest payments on approx $10,000 dollars at a rate around 4%.

What is so hard to understand about this process that you think the banks do not somehow come out ahead???

You still have the belief that the money in your checking/savings account belongs to you don't you? It doesn't, the money in the bank actually belongs to the bank, and they can do whatever they want with it. If they lose it, you will be the last of the creditors that gets paid. This is the legality of banking that few people realize.



Again, you don't actually understand what the multiplier is. Before you offer your criticism, you really do need to understand that.
I am not really sure you do either.



Don't take payments in checks if you expect to pay a transaction fee, then. Simple enough.
I find it odd that the bank would not honor a check from their customer. The person cashing the check has nothing to do with whether or not the bank will charge a fee. The person who wrote the check is the cutomer and he has directed the bank to give funds to some entity. The fact that the entity does not have an account is immaterial to the transaction, he is NOT the customer, the person who wrote the check is and they clearly have an account. Next time this happens, call the person who wrote the check and tell them that their bank will not honor it and has committed contract fraud. The check writer opens a checking account with the bank with a contract that basically says the bank will disperse funds to whomever the check writer wants. That is the contract with a checking account. Have the person who wrote the check tell the bank that if they don't cash that check that he will sue them for failure to complete the contract.

This always works, I have never been charged a fee by BofA when explaining it to them like that. They want to keep their customers and not piss them off.




"They" is the US taxpayer. So you're complaining that the US taxpayer profits before any of the banks?
So a $16 trillion deficit is GOOD for the USA???
Where did you go to school?



Most banks didn't need to be bailed out. TARP was engineered in an effort to cast public confidence on the entire banking sector, not out of necessity. Indeed, this should be apparent from the fact that most banks paid their TARP loans back very quickly--they never needed or wanted the money but were forced to take it by Hank Paulson.
Its easy to be solvent when the FASB tells you that you can mark to fantasy all of your under performing assets. Got a house only worth $100,000? You can mark that house to a value of $500,000. Now your books are good to go!!!



If population isn't fixed and the supply of gold and silver is fixed, how can you claim that the prices of those commodities are stable? You cannot.

Gold is worth more with 7 billion people than it is with 1 billion people. Everyone else in this forum, arguing for and against me right now, will agree with that, and yet your statement does not.
The supply of gold and silver is fixed?
No it isn't.
2,500 metric tons of gold mined each year
27,500 Metric tons of silver mined each year.



You never did answer my question about the practicability of the gold standard, did you? Tell me, with 7 billion people and $80 trillion of economic activity, how can the same amount of gold be used versus having 2 billion people and $5 trillion of economic activity?
Didn't Lenin say and then demonstrate that the best way to overturn the existing social order and to bring about communism was by printing paper money?? Pretty sure that was the fella.

Every paper money scheme ever tried has ended in disaster, with the aftermath and vacuum always taken up by gold and silver. 5000 years of history shows this to be true.

By having a gold redeemable currency freedom is guaranteed for us all. If government begins to spend wildly we can redeem our currency for the gold and take away that reckless power. Gold lets people save without the risk of going flat broke if markets do not continue to always go up and never down. Paper money gives mankind no freedom of movement as it has no redemptive value in any place other than the country in which it was issued. Gold and Silver do not have this problem, they are universally accepted as money in every part of the world.

Foreign wars and remorseless regimentation is the domain of paper money schemes that are ending.

Honest money can only be intrinsically valued, paper money has no value and therefore cannot be honest money.

The gold standard acted as an ever watchful sentry to prevent unlimited public expenditures.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I don't think your issue reflects manipulation of CPI; I think it reflects the choice to use CPI for cost of living adjustments.
Am I being naïve in thinking that the two should be equivalent? Is CPI not meant to track the cost of living? What'm I missing? cn
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Got it. When I worked "business days" wasn't the criterion. We worked on most holidays, and 50x40 was a pretty good figure of merit.

OH! I see where you made a probable math error. 260 days x 8 hours is 2080 hours, which would be 52 weeks x 40 hours, not even a vacation.
But I deduce that you seem to have neglected to realize that the 260 business days figure has no provision for weekend, making for a 56-hour "workweek" without the reflexive subtraction for the weekend. tell me what you think ... cn
Looking at it today with a clear mind, you are absolutely correct. 2,000 hours is the average hours worked today.

Should have divided 260 by 5 = 46 weeks average worked per year. Seems right to me, last job I had I got approx 6 weeks of vacation and days off per year.

If I calculate my work hours the way Bucky does, I work 8,765 hours a year. Way more than anyone in 1913 ever did.

It was mass quantities of Northern lights and Sour Kush, I swear.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Looking at it today with a clear mind, you are absolutely correct. 2,000 hours is the average hours worked today.

Should have divided 260 by 5 = 46 weeks average worked per year. Seems right to me, last job I had I got approx 6 weeks of vacation and days off per year.

If I calculate my work hours the way Bucky does, I work 8,765 hours a year.
It's not stupor ... it's overtime! ;) cn

<add> What do you do with the remaining 48 min 45 s? Slacker.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Allow me to repeat myself: "Page 145 of the PDF: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/me...estigation.pdf." I gave you the PDF page so you wouldn't have to scroll through the document; you looked at page 145 of the report.
Check, again... that IS page 145 from the pdf.

I think we are all "rich" in a lot of ways compared to 1913. We have things like TVs, computers, and phones with capabilities that no one ever would have imagined; the average household doesn't just have one but two cars; the average new home is a palatial 2000+ square feet of air conditioned paradise with three bathrooms; if you have a heart attack, they can take you to a hospital, crack you open, and keep you alive for another 20 years; and I could just keep going and going and going...

The fact that you were born into all of this prosperity and see it is a totally normal, given thing is irrelevant if none of it existed 100 years ago. That you don't appreciate how much you actually have over what people used to actually have does not mean that you aren't any richer.
You must be an excellent dancer the way you sidestepped THAT one.
Yes, we certainly have more stuff now. We also have more debt, inflation, unemployment, taxation, distractions, war and ignorance.
If wages have outpaced prices as you have said, then why does it take two incomes to do what used to take only one? You can feel like we are all richer because of all of this stuff that we have now but what is the REAL cost? Could it be the quality of life? Could it be the value of life? Could it be the freedom and independence that comes from owning wealth instead of debt?
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
They certainly wouldn't constitute an unregulated cartel. The FOMC is vote-controlled by the Board of Governors, which is a government-appointed group of non-bankers. Likewise, the entire Federal Reserve System is a creature of statute that be amended and destroyed.
Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
...what other post?



Thanks, hopefully no one will ever repeat that bullshit.



That calculation has nothing to do with me.
They will....and people will keep quoting Fed stats from the Fed to justify the Fed as well....par for the course.

"We lost 2500 to FICA" nothing to do with you?
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
How much does it take to support a household? Where I live, you can get a 3 bedroom house for $1,000 a month, and let's add $200 for utilities, for $14,400 a year. I support 2 people on $75 a week at the grocery store, so let's say $150 for 4, which is $7,800. We probably lost about $2,500 to FICA but paid no income tax (with one earner at $30,000, a significant other, and 2 kids). $30,000 - $2,500 - $14,400 - $7,800 = $5,300 left for any other necessities.
$75/wk for groceries, for two?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
I find it odd that the bank would not honor a check from their customer. The person cashing the check has nothing to do with whether or not the bank will charge a fee. The person who wrote the check is the cutomer and he has directed the bank to give funds to some entity. The fact that the entity does not have an account is immaterial to the transaction, he is NOT the customer, the person who wrote the check is and they clearly have an account. Next time this happens, call the person who wrote the check and tell them that their bank will not honor it and has committed contract fraud. The check writer opens a checking account with the bank with a contract that basically says the bank will disperse funds to whomever the check writer wants. That is the contract with a checking account. Have the person who wrote the check tell the bank that if they don't cash that check that he will sue them for failure to complete the contract.

This always works, I have never been charged a fee by BofA when explaining it to them like that. They want to keep their customers and not piss them off.
I worked for a grocery store and their checks were drawn on BoA....BoA was right across the street and my credit union was miles away....I go to cash the check and they say since I don't have an account there will be a fee....I say ummmm no if the instrument can't be cashed at face value it is a bad check and I will charge a bad check fee....I end up in the managers office explaining the sections of the UCC that cover this....she just cashed it for face after that, no fee for me anymore even without an account....just another example of gouging by the bank......they are like children pushing the envelope to see what they can get away with and we have let them become spoiled rotten.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Also, 30k single or married with two dependents qualifies for EITC, I would get that cause its free money absorbed by the collective which, of course, adds to the surplus making us wealthier.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Oh that's right, in 1913 100% of everyone worked 50 hour weeks, never had days off, never got sick, never had vacation, never had entertainment or any of the things modern life has given us. WORK WORK WORK WORK WORK. Its all anyone ever did in 1913.

Perhaps the numbers are biased because 35% of the entire work force were farmers????

When I was doing all the work on the farm, 120 hour weeks were not uncommon, you work 7 days a week on a farm and truly never have a day off.

Today less than 3% are farming.

How stupid of me to think that towards the end of the industrial revolution humans would have been out of their caves by then.
From your article: "Between 1900 and 1920, ten hours were eliminated from the average workweek, and by 1940 the forty-hour workweek had been put in place." I think it's clear this isn't referring to farmers, since their workweeks were substantially longer and you're suggesting that hasn't changed much. (Labor usually does a good job separating farm and non-farm data so we don't run into these skewing problems.)

An unpaid vacation, but it doesn't say how long. What do you want to assume, 2 weeks? A month? It's not going to change the result.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
So a bank gets a deposit of $1,000 and pays .01% interest on it. The banks then borrow that money 10 times over and receive interest payments on approx $10,000 dollars at a rate around 4%.

What is so hard to understand about this process that you think the banks do not somehow come out ahead???
For simplicity, let's say we just have one bank. If the reserve requirement is 10% and I deposit $1,000, the bank only needs to keep $100 on hand. The bank doesn't "borrow that money 10 times over," it loans the remaining $900 out. If the recipient of that $900 loan deposits it into the bank, it only needs to keep $90 on hand; it loans the other $810 out. This plays out until the bank ends up with $10,000 owed to depositors, $9,000 owed by borrowers, and $1,000 in reserve.

I never denied that the bank "come out ahead" (they wouldn't be in the business if they didn't), I said there is no "prime beneficiary." The depositor who wanted his interest payment benefits, the borrower who wanted the loan benefits, and the bank benefits.

You still have the belief that the money in your checking/savings account belongs to you don't you? It doesn't, the money in the bank actually belongs to the bank, and they can do whatever they want with it. If they lose it, you will be the last of the creditors that gets paid. This is the legality of banking that few people realize.
Yes, when you make a bank deposit you no longer "own" the money, you just have a right to repayment; in the event of failure, you would be an unsecured creditor. But this legal reality doesn't really matter, does it? As a practical matter, the bank never refuses to repay you, and in the event of bank failure, deposit insurance pays you.

I find it odd that the bank would not honor a check from their customer. The person cashing the check has nothing to do with whether or not the bank will charge a fee. The person who wrote the check is the cutomer and he has directed the bank to give funds to some entity. The fact that the entity does not have an account is immaterial to the transaction, he is NOT the customer, the person who wrote the check is and they clearly have an account. Next time this happens, call the person who wrote the check and tell them that their bank will not honor it and has committed contract fraud. The check writer opens a checking account with the bank with a contract that basically says the bank will disperse funds to whomever the check writer wants. That is the contract with a checking account. Have the person who wrote the check tell the bank that if they don't cash that check that he will sue them for failure to complete the contract.

This always works, I have never been charged a fee by BofA when explaining it to them like that. They want to keep their customers and not piss them off.
I think the term is actually pretty standard in deposit agreements. This is from Chase:

"7. Check cashing
If a person who is not our deposit or loan customer tries to cash your check at any of our branches, we
may charge them a fee or refuse to cash it. We may also require that they provide us identification we deem
acceptable, including fingerprints."

So a $16 trillion deficit is GOOD for the USA???
Where did you go to school?
The banks are responsible for our national debt?

Its easy to be solvent when the FASB tells you that you can mark to fantasy all of your under performing assets. Got a house only worth $100,000? You can mark that house to a value of $500,000. Now your books are good to go!!!
Is a bank really insolvent when asset valuations are totally irrational and just reflect temporary market panic? No. All those "toxic assets" are now worth far, far more than they were in 2008 because they're being more accurately valued in the market place. Notwithstanding that fact, I maintain that most banks would not have failed on that basis (although Citigroup certainly would have).

The supply of gold and silver is fixed?
No it isn't.
2,500 metric tons of gold mined each year
27,500 Metric tons of silver mined each year.
You know what I meant: the supply is fixed in the sense that it hasn't increased at the rate of population growth. If the world population was 2.5 billion in 1960 and 85,000 tons of gold had been mined, it should have been relatively less valuable in 1960 than it is now, with 7 billion people and something like 170,000 tons mined.

Didn't Lenin say and then demonstrate that the best way to overturn the existing social order and to bring about communism was by printing paper money?? Pretty sure that was the fella.

Every paper money scheme ever tried has ended in disaster, with the aftermath and vacuum always taken up by gold and silver. 5000 years of history shows this to be true.

By having a gold redeemable currency freedom is guaranteed for us all. If government begins to spend wildly we can redeem our currency for the gold and take away that reckless power. Gold lets people save without the risk of going flat broke if markets do not continue to always go up and never down. Paper money gives mankind no freedom of movement as it has no redemptive value in any place other than the country in which it was issued. Gold and Silver do not have this problem, they are universally accepted as money in every part of the world.

Foreign wars and remorseless regimentation is the domain of paper money schemes that are ending.

Honest money can only be intrinsically valued, paper money has no value and therefore cannot be honest money.

The gold standard acted as an ever watchful sentry to prevent unlimited public expenditures.
I think gold and silver made sense in an era when information was hard to come by and truth was difficult to discern. That's what separates past experience from the present and renders it incomparable.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Am I being naïve in thinking that the two should be equivalent? Is CPI not meant to track the cost of living? What'm I missing? cn
CPI is an average, reflecting average prices and average choices nationwide. Accordingly, it reflects price changes in what the average consumer buys. The "average consumer" is not a 19-year-old college student, a 70-year-old social security beneficiary, a single mother with five children, or a person living in New York City.

This doesn't reflect a deliberate attempt to conceal the "truth" about price increases. The "truth" depends on who you are and where you live.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Check, again... that IS page 145 from the pdf.
You went to page 145 of the report. Page 145 of the PDF is page 132 of the report.

But you should start on page 144 of the PDF (page 132 of the report), because that's where the table actually starts (looking at it a third time, I realize page 145 is the second page of the table).

You must be an excellent dancer the way you sidestepped THAT one.
Yes, we certainly have more stuff now. We also have more debt, inflation, unemployment, taxation, distractions, war and ignorance.
If wages have outpaced prices as you have said, then why does it take two incomes to do what used to take only one? You can feel like we are all richer because of all of this stuff that we have now but what is the REAL cost? Could it be the quality of life? Could it be the value of life? Could it be the freedom and independence that comes from owning wealth instead of debt?
Stuff costs money. All the extra stuff you have that people didn't have in 1913 is wealth. When I spent $2,500 a few months ago on this Macbook Pro, I gave up $2,500 I could have invested in gold. Having a house that's 100% larger than in the past? Having not just one but two cars? Paying $200 a month for cable, internet, and cell phone service? If you chose not to have any of these things, you would have the wealth to do with as you please.

If you want to live the way people lived in 1913, you won't need two incomes. After housing, food, and a little entertainment, what else do you have to pay for?
 
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