Well N A, The Tankless Water Heater is the Bomb!

[joe macclennan]

Drain to waste? I don't know how I would sleep at night knowing I was wasting that much water.

Well water, high water table No problems with running out here. Besides it all goes back into a drainage tile which in dry times leaches back into the soil.

How is using something that is designed for continuous use and high temps (which are not the conditions my pump runs under btw) better than a different pump that is designed to run under my exact conditions?
And what is sub-par about a shureflo pump designed for use with a water heater (besides the obvious fact that mine died after 1 year)?

ok buy another then if you are happy with it. I am not going to debate which is a superior product. I have installed hundreds of taco pumps.

 

[guy incognito]

Well water, high water table No problems with running out here. Besides it all goes back into a drainage tile which in dry times leaches back into the soil.

ok buy another then if you are happy with it. I am not going to debate which is a superior product. I have installed hundreds of taco pumps.

So you simply state it is a superior product and leave it at that even when probed? Why won't you debate? Please explain to me what makes a taco pump superior for this application when compared with the shureflo or other pumps designed to run on demand water heaters.

 

[joe macclennan]

That's right, No debate. Go buy another shurflo. And next time you have questions that you think you already know the answer too.
Don't come asking for help.

There is a reason why professionals use professional equipment.

 

[joe macclennan]

deleted post

woaaah down boy. I did contribute, I backed up what jrainman and legallyflying said about pump selection.

Just because you want me to do all of the research for you, instead of you doing some reading of the technical info.

Or because you are too immature to accept advice from those with more experience in hydronics than you.
Doesn't give you the right to tell me to fuck off.

I love to help people when they appreciate it. When someone wants to argue my experience I say go do what you want. I do not claim to know everything on this subject. I do know that taco's are solid.

It's cool tho man buy another shurflo. It is entirely possible you got a defective pump. I have seen a taco go bad after less than a year.

One pump out of the several hundred I installed. That was only because the high limit switch was bad on the boiler and it boiled the water out of it running it dry. So it wasn't exactly a pump problem.

 

[guy incognito]

woaaah down boy. I did contribute, I backed up what jrainman and legallyflying said about pump selection.

Just because you want me to do all of the research for you, instead of you doing some reading of the technical info.

Or because you are too immature to accept advice from those with more experience in hydronics than you.

I love to help people when they appreciate it. When someone wants to argue my experience I say go do what you want. I do not claim to know everything on this subject. I do know that taco's are solid.

It's cool tho man buy another shurflo. It is entirely possible you got a defective pump. I have seen a taco go bad after less than a year.

One pump out of the several hundred I installed. That was only because the high limit switch was bad on the boiler and it boiled the water out of it running it dry.

You stated that you are an expert and that a taco pump is the way to go, but refuse to discuss why. If you really are an expert and have a fundamental understanding of what is happening then you should be able to explain WHY a taco pump is superior to a shureflo or any other type of pump. If you do not understand or can't explain WHY the taco is superior then I do not trust your opinion as an expert in the field.

Please note that I am not advocating the shureflo pump, or any other pump for that matter. You claim that I don't want to do any research or reading, but if you go back through the thread you will find out that is exactly what I have done. I have read up on the specifications of the heater and the specifications of the pumps. I have read message boards concerning this specific use and have gathered reviews on the pumps i've used (so plenty of other "experts" as well as laymen all giving me anecdotal evidence that the pump will operate as intended). I purchased pumps designed to operate exactly under those conditions and yet I have a failed pump(s). You have not provided any insight as to why my pumps have failed under normal operating conditions and I am skeptical that a taco pump will be the magic bullet (because the exact same claim was made for my last 2 pumps).

I also don't see how or why back pressure is an issue that is burning the pump out. Plenty of people use these pumps for EXACTLY this purpose in an RV or out camping and they don't install pressure relief legs on the pump outlet and most of them seem to not be burning out pumps. Regardless, I did have a pressure release leg installed and ran the heater on the minimum pressure I could dial it into and still have the heater run.

I have learned a great deal in this thread, and I think I have contributed a decent amount too. There is a ton of information in this thread, but if anyone wants to drop some knowledge I think there are plenty of people ready, willing and able to learn (including me) here.

 

[joe macclennan]

You stated that you are an expert and that a taco pump is the way to go, but refuse to discuss why. If you really are an expert and have a fundamental understanding of what is happening then you should be able to explain WHY a taco pump is superior to a shureflo or any other type of pump. If you do not understand or can't explain WHY the taco is superior then I do not trust your opinion as an expert in the field.

Please note that I am not advocating the shureflo pump, or any other pump for that matter. You claim that I don't want to do any research or reading, but if you go back through the thread you will find out that is exactly what I have done. I have read up on the specifications of the heater and the specifications of the pumps. I have read message boards concerning this specific use and have gathered reviews on the pumps i've used (so plenty of other "experts" as well as laymen all giving me anecdotal evidence that the pump will operate as intended). I purchased pumps designed to operate exactly under those conditions and yet I have a failed pump(s). You have not provided any insight as to why my pumps have failed under normal operating conditions and I am skeptical that a taco pump will be the magic bullet (because the exact same claim was made for my last 2 pumps).

I also don't see how or why back pressure is an issue that is burning the pump out. Plenty of people use these pumps for EXACTLY this purpose in an RV or out camping and they don't install pressure relief legs on the pump outlet and most of them seem to not be burning out pumps. Regardless, I did have a pressure release leg installed and ran the heater on the minimum pressure I could dial it into and still have the heater run.

I have learned a great deal in this thread, and I think I have contributed a decent amount too. There is a ton of information in this thread, but if anyone wants to drop some knowledge I think there are plenty of people ready, willing and able to learn (including me) here.

Really?

I never once claimed to be an expert on the subject. The engineer who designed the dozens of hydronic systems I installed certainly qualified as one tho. If there was a better product for the application of moving water we would've used it.

I only claimed to have installed hundreds of taco's (which I have) over the past 8 yrs. That doesn't make me an expert by any means only to have quite a bit of experience installing them. The company I worked for was known for "top of the line" installations and taco was almost exclusively what we used. In the hvac industry installing subpar equipment only gets "callbacks" for failures. Which will soon put you out of business.

I'm also not saying a taco pump is going to be your "magic bullet" either. It is only what I and several others would use. If you don't trust our opinions that is fine as well. I really don't see what your problem is here. The pumps are reasonably priced, extremely efficient and highly recommended by many.

All I can say from experience is that taco's have a low failure rate and are a good buy. They are circulation pumps made for extreme conditions. Your conditions are far less extreme so it should last longer. You want something die hard? get a bg pump like jrainman suggested. Cast iron housing, big fucking motor, the thing will run for forty years.

I'd call this route the "magic club" Kinda like swattin flies with a shotgun

 

[guy incognito]

Really?

I never once claimed to be an expert on the subject. The engineer who designed the dozens of hydronic systems I installed certainly qualified as one tho. If there was a better product for the application of moving water we would've used it.

I only claimed to have installed hundreds of taco's (which I have) over the past 8 yrs. That doesn't make me an expert by any means only to have quite a bit of experience installing them. The company I worked for was known for "top of the line" installations and taco was almost exclusively what we used. In the hvac industry installing subpar equipment only gets "callbacks" for failures. Which will soon put you out of business.

I'm also not saying a taco pump is going to be your "magic bullet" either. It is only what I and several others would use. If you don't trust our opinions that is fine as well. I really don't see what your problem is here. The pumps are reasonably priced, extremely efficient and highly recommended by many.

All I can say from experience is that taco's have a low failure rate and are a good buy. They are circulation pumps made for extreme conditions. Your conditions are far less extreme so it should last longer. You want something die hard? get a bg pump like jrainman suggested. Cast iron housing big fucking motor the thing will run for forty years.

I'd call this route the "magic club" Kinda like swattin flies with a shotgun

You strongly implied it by stating that "professionals use professional equipment" (the implication being you are a professional and choose taco pumps) and that you have installed over 200 taco pumps.

Engineers, experts, and professionals fuck up all the time too. I see plenty of sub-par work done by professionals. I have experienced it first hand. Professionals do not always use professional grade equipment.

For every person recommending taco pumps, there are several other people recommending several other pumps. Plenty of people have sworn by shureflo pumps. I don't know if I just got a turd or if there is something different with my set up that is causing failure. I would like a better understanding of why my pumps are failing when they shouldn't be.

 

[joe macclennan]

as far as professionals using cheap products, yes I suppose some do. The supply houses I buy from don't carry cheap shit. The company I worked for had close to 100 ppl and covered 16 counties with a good rep. But hey, I'm just some guy on the internet.

Look man I'm sorry you had some bad experiences and yes, anyone you ask probably has the "best" way for you to solve a problem. Again I can only go off my experience. I like taco products for all the reasons stated before.

You want something that will last forever by a bg.

If you want specific information on why......perhaps someone else will give it to you. I cannot.

Furthermore I really don't care what kind of pump you buy. It's not like i'm profiting from it. I am simply giving you my experience which you want to debate, and now i am done. I have work to do.

I hope you decide something and move on from this topic. This is a great thread. Hate to see it all mucked up.

 

[guy incognito]

as far as professionals using cheap products, yes I suppose some do. The supply houses I buy from don't carry cheap shit. The company I worked for had close to 100 ppl and covered 16 counties with a good rep. But hey, I'm just some guy on the internet.

Look man I'm sorry you had some bad experiences and yes, anyone you ask probably has the "best" way for you to solve a problem. Again I can only go off my experience. I like taco products for all the reasons stated before.

You want something that will last forever by a bg.

If you want specific information on why......perhaps someone else will give it to you. I cannot.

Furthermore I really don't care what kind of pump you buy. It's not like i'm profiting from it. I am simply giving you my experience which you want to debate, and now i am done. I have work to do.

I hope you decide something and move on from this topic. This is a great thread. Hate to see it all mucked up.

I don't know you from anyone, and I have no clue what company you worked with, or ANYTHING about you. You are quite literally just some dude on the internet.

 

[joe macclennan]

Umm exactly what I said. and you're not going to know me or where I worked.

how many of the people here do you actually know?

Why are you here asking questions in the first place?

Trolling I think

 

[jrainman]

I think my pump(s) and heater are designed to be used with garden hose size tubing. I also think the most recent pump I had was specifically designed for use with an on demand water heater.

I don't see how moving water too fast through the unit will cause premature failure. I especially don't see how it will cause premature failure of the pump.

Are you sure the pump should be on the return side of the system? That seems so counter intuitive to me. I thought the principal of operation of the heater was that it required a minimum water pressure in order to ignite the burner. How do you generate any pressure at all from the return side?

1 when moving liquid the pump is sized to the GPM rated for the appliance (gallon per Minute )

2) you don't see how the GPM rate of flow effects the efficiency = over working conditions , Well then why are these types of equipment rated on GPM .

3) you should forget about pressure, its all about GPM. unless you are installing a well pump then you need pressure / pressure tank /pressure cut off switch .

4) its all about british thermol units BTU, understanding the properties of removing and adding heat to a conductive source in this case water .

remember basic physics apply here PRESSURE AND TEMPETURE GO HAND N HAND , pressure rise = temp rise

5) So you don't think the pump should be on the return side, Well I ask you to take a look at a basic hydronic heating system (hot water boiler) and see how it is trimmed in (piped in ) look where the pump is installed and look at the supply and return line size.

But hey maybe the $12,000 cad program I use to design HVAC is wrong , you think they will give me a refund.

Why taco because I also have installed hundreds of them like JOE M said ,most hot water appliances use them and recommend them,just as they use Honeywell for most of the electrical the controls , But the main reason is when I install one, like I did last week on a outdoor boiler with 4'' feed (big Taco pump) = my phone does not ring for a call backs

 

[jrainman]

Pump feeds appliance this line should be bigger you need more volume so the pump does not struggle in laymen terms if you are dealing with 3/4 coming out on hot side of heater you need to feed with 1-1/4 ,you can mess with the pressure all you want but its volume for the GPM of the pump.

 

[guy incognito]

1 when moving liquid the pump is sized to the GPM rated for the appliance (gallon per Minute )

2) you don't see how the GPM rate of flow effects the efficiency = over working conditions , Well then why are these types of equipment rated on GPM .

3) you should forget about pressure, its all about GPM. unless you are installing a well pump then you need pressure / pressure tank /pressure cut off switch .

4) its all about british thermol units BTU, understanding the properties of removing and adding heat to a conductive source in this case water .

remember basic physics apply here PRESSURE AND TEMPETURE GO HAND N HAND , pressure rise = temp rise

5) So you don't think the pump should be on the return side, Well I ask you to take a look at a basic hydronic heating system (hot water boiler) and see how it is trimmed in (piped in ) look where the pump is installed and look at the supply and return line size.

But hey maybe the $12,000 cad program I use to design HVAC is wrong , you think they will give me a refund.

Why taco because I also have installed hundreds of them like JOE M said ,most hot water appliances use them and recommend them,just as they use Honeywell for most of the electrical the controls , But the main reason is when I install one, like I did last week on a outdoor boiler with 4'' feed (big Taco pump) = my phone does not ring for a call backs

1. Yes.

2. No I understand what you were saying but I don't think it's applicable to my heater. I think my heater has been getting the proper flowrate though it. I have had no issues with the heater itself.

3. My heater requires a minimum pressure of 40 psi to operate. Regardless of the GPM I have to maintain it at 40+ psi. I have already encountered situations when I could deliver enough flowrate, but not at a high enough pressure and because of that the heater would not run.

4. I don't think this is applicable either. The heater is running just fine and the heat is being transferred properly. The water comes out hot and the unit itself does not feel hot.

5. As Joe already pointed out we just had confusion over the terminology of "return side".

 

[guy incognito]

Pump feeds appliance this line should be bigger you need more volume so the pump does not struggle in laymen terms if you are dealing with 3/4 coming out on hot side of heater you need to feed with 1-1/4 ,you can mess with the pressure all you want but its volume for the GPM of the pump.

My inlet on heater is a fixed size. The outlets on the pump are designed to be used with garden hose fittings and garden hose sized tubing.

 

[jrainman]

No I understand you completely, Yes you need 40 psi ,but that comes with flow of GPM, again proper rating and maybe aquastadt and solenoid ,and or like I said before pressure tank and LPC cutin sw.

 

[legallyflying]

If your so damned smart and have installed soo many taco pumps..which one will generate 40 psi of pressure?

Were are not here to debate the semantics of efficency of thermal exchange and the effects of temperature on liquid and vessel pressure. That is all well and good, and I understand those concepts but honestly they don't mean fuck all here.

The pump goes upstream of the tankless heater. Maybe HVAC guys have a particular lingo..but it can be placed on the "return side" which to use lowly people without Autocad (which I have by the way but I DLs a torent and crack for it as the licenses are stupid expensive) Most of us mere mortals see the return side as ...returning from the heater.

The tankless has a diaphragm that must be pushed enough to trigger the ignite switch. Placing the pump downstream of the unit would not make this happen.

Flow and pressure are too very different things. A particular flow does not dictate a given pressure (as the poster above found out)

Oh yeah.. Maybe I need an aquatat and an LPN cutin? Stop spewing shit for the sake of spewing shit and lend a hand on proper pump selection.

 

[joe macclennan]

most of em can carry well over 100 psi. This one should work fine.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/TACO-Circulator-Pump-4PC90?cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ1

Oh and grundfos makes a great product too.
You'll need to purchase a flange kit also with any circulation pump.

Also, Putting an expansion tank in with a pressure cutoff switch would help extend the life of any pump. This will prevent it from deadheading which would overheat your pump causing it to fail. Especially if you are trying to push it to 30psi or more.Hope this helps.


To change to a diff. subject briefly.

Has anyone ever checked the exhaust co2 temp on your heaters. Just curious as to what temps your heaters are running. I'm gonna check tonite. I'm thinking it is not cooling as well as it should and I should flush.

 

[legallyflying]

Thanks man. My exhaust is warm but not hot. Even by the end of the night when the water in my barrel is like 120, I can hold my hand over the exhaust for as long as I want.

Before flushing I would look at your inlet screen. Mine was clogged with all kinds of crap. Granted I was using black iron elbows I had just laying around, and they were rusting like fiends.

I have read that LCR is a better flushing agent than straight vinegar.

One last question, will the Taco pump generate 30psi or just withstand it? It's an impeller pump no? They are amazingly silent for sure. I helped my buddy install his hydronic system in his new ICF house and we just turned the system on. Pretty slick. We are Pre-heating his water with my CO2 generator and we also installed a ground loop under the sub-basement (where out 18k room is) to chill our hydro reservoirs. Going to be dope as hell! Dreading the first power bill though .

 

[legallyflying]

I'm currently looking at this..

http://tanklesshq.com/flojet-2-9-gpm-12v-water-pump-model-03526-14a-off-grid-pump/

I don't think they have a 110v version but could run a converter.

 

[joe macclennan]

To be honest I don't know with 100% certainty. Most hydronic systems run at a much lower psi. I hope jrainman can shed some light on this.

That diaghrpam pump link you put up looks like it will certainly generate the pressure you need is 2.9 gpm enough flow? I dunno I never sized pumps and stuff. Just installed em.

Either way a pressure tank with a cutoff switch is a good idea imo.