its getting worse

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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
I have one plant that's giving me problems. I'm beginning to think that the issue is with the roots. The roots on the 3 other clones where pretty white and the roots on this one had a very slight beige color but they felt strong so I didn't worry about it.

The first sign of stress was the second day after transplanting into FF Happy Frog. The bottom leaf started turning UP on the edges, and a couple days later it started to turn yellow from the middle of the leaf and grew outwards. Following a suggestion, I trimmed the yellow and damaged parts of the leaf. People suggested that the damage was caused by heat burn (but it was the bottom leaf and it is under a T5 bulb) or that I was over watering (but when the damage started, I had only watered once and now, 10 days later, I've only watered 3x's) The first watering was water only, ph'd to 6.5, and left out over night to let the chlorine evaporate. The second watering had a few drops of Superthrive and the third watering had a couple drops of Hygrozyme.

On a side note, the other 3 clones have only been watered 2x's as of today. For some reason the soil in the stressed plant seems to dry up much quicker than the other three.

First picture shows the leaf curl and possible white mildew (but I was told it was rooting powder)


Second picture shows the leaf dying from the middle outwards.


And the third picture shows the leaf above the original stressed leaf showing the edges curling DOWN and little spots dying on the leaf. This appeared today.


I eagerly await suggestions. Any help at all.

Thanks
Hillbillybuddha
 
36OhBuds

36OhBuds

Active Member
Couple possibilities.

First a few things: Don't pH the shit going into the soil. The soil's pH is fine, you don't need to pH your solutions in soil. Anybody that says otherwise is wrong. If you have a stable soil, it'll be alright. Most nutes are buffered but will also affect the pH of the water, and thus, get it into a more acceptable zone. Over time it will also become more acidic and allow the plant to go through a bit of fluctuation, which is normal.

Or, add pH additives, which are basically acids and salts, and watch them build up in your soil and cause issues like this.

My first instinct is that you have some sort of salt buildup, nute lockout from overferting or root rot from overwatering. pH is probably all fucked up too.

Soil looks real wet, let that shit dry out and you'll get a better idea of what's going on here. Could just be too wet, and that white shit could also be PM if your soil stays too wet and you're not circulating air.

The leaf that's curling upwards and has the edges turning in was burned or heat stressed at some point. Or the soil got too dry and the plant started to eat it. That second leaf that's clawing down looks really badly overwatered or locked out of some sort. Both could have been caused by pH, now that I think about it.

SO let's build a plan to fix these issues. This is what I would do.

1. Water this thing to good runoff, and check the runoff's TDS (ppm). Screw the pH, it won't be right if there is salt in it.
2. If the TDS is more than 200ppm higher than the water going in, flush it until it isn't and let the soil dry before doing anything else.
3. Once it's dry or if it isn't too high, then we would be worried about either pH, root rot, or some type of gnat issue.
4. Do you have any bugs? Check underside of leaves, when you water do you get bugs scurrying everywhere? It'd be obvious.
5. If it's not bugs, maybe root rot? Take it out of the container and check the roots. If they're browning, then get some great white or ZHO and inoculate them, and let the SOIL get dry or optionally look up heisenburg tea and make some. If they aren't BROWN rotted, then it isn't root rot. This will also give you a chance to see if there's larvae feeding on your shit.
6. If not bugs, if not root rot, it's pH. Get a bit of dolomite lime (fine) and mix it into the soil, water it into that shit, it'll help stabilize it and also supply calcium and magnesium.
7. If it isn't pH, it's a deficiency (and this should always be the LAST thing that people try to diagnose, always check everything else first, because those things will make your deficiencies WORSE if you try to treat one!)
8. Get a balanced nute solution, water it at 1/2 strength until runoff, and let it dry, see if it improves.

If it doesn't, your plant is shit.

Good luck.

Note: When I say let dry, I don't mean let it crumble to death and suck away from the walls of the pot. That is too dry, way too dry, never let a plant get that dry. It's like suffocating it.
 
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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
360hBuds. That was awesome. Thanks.
The soil is wet in that picture because I had just watered it about a minute before I took the picture. I have a ph meter but no ppm meter. I'll pick one up on Monday (that's my next day off) What is TDS?

I haven't seen any bugs and I stare at my pants for hours everyday.

I haven't pulled it out of the soil yet to look at the roots but I got the Hygrozyme because the guy at the shop suggested root rot as a possibility and said it was great for that. But I always have a bit of trepidation for anyone trying to sell me anything.

Anyways, I'll let it dry out again and read the ppm o of the run off. Then get back to you. I'm guessing it'll be Tuesday or Wednesday before the soil drys up again.

And just to repeat what I said earlier, tap water, ph'd to 6.5, let sit overnight (or a couple days) to let the chlorine evaporate. Been in Happy Frog for 10 days. Very little growth, almost none actually on any of the four clones. Under T5 lights. Maybe I'll put the one plant outside for a couple days to help dry out the soil quicker. Can't afford an MH or HPS until next week but I plan on getting one of each.

Thanks again,

Hillbillybuddha
 
36OhBuds

36OhBuds

Active Member
hillbillybuddha said:
360hBuds. That was awesome. Thanks.
The soil is wet in that picture because I had just watered it about a minute before I took the picture. I have a ph meter but no ppm meter. I'll pick one up on Monday (that's my next day off) What is TDS?

I haven't seen any bugs and I stare at my pants for hours everyday.

I haven't pulled it out of the soil yet to look at the roots but I got the Hygrozyme because the guy at the shop suggested root rot as a possibility and said it was great for that. But I always have a bit of trepidation for anyone trying to sell me anything.

Anyways, I'll let it dry out again and read the ppm o of the run off. Then get back to you. I'm guessing it'll be Tuesday or Wednesday before the soil drys up again.

And just to repeat what I said earlier, tap water, ph'd to 6.5, let sit overnight (or a couple days) to let the chlorine evaporate. Been in Happy Frog for 10 days. Very little growth, almost none actually on any of the four clones. Under T5 lights. Maybe I'll put the one plant outside for a couple days to help dry out the soil quicker. Can't afford an MH or HPS until next week but I plan on getting one of each.

Thanks again,

Hillbillybuddha
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TDS = total dissolved solids, or, ppm. Heard good things about hygro, but I would really recommend just using some ancient forest humus and great white to put some good bacteria in the soil to cause competition and it'll help with all of the issues.

Once again, don't pH your water. The extra salts are no good, but more importantly, we're worried about the pH of the rootzone. As long as the pH is somewhere between 6.2 and 6.9 after I add my nutes, I don't sweat it. The soil will swing and plant will do it's thing. Also, letting it sit out might be throwing the pH buffering out of it, depending on your water supply. I don't let my water sit out, and it doesn't hurt my plants at all, but my tap water is only 68ppm with 2ppm chlorine, far below anything that will affect a plant, ever.

Yeah, outdoors might make it wilt because it isn't used to it, so if it does, just bring it back in and do it slowly. Couple hours at a time. You can also punch a few holes into the sides of the pot, just drill them evenly like spaced out a few inches and it'll help with airflow and also air prune any roots that hit it and help densify your root system.
 
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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
I just read your edits and I think your right but I don't know why.

I water when the top 1/2 inch of dirt is super dry and dusty, turns light brown rather then the dark rich brown you see in the picture. It's about every four days or so (but like I said above) the problem plant is drying out quicker then the other three clones. (I watered day one, day four and today) so I don't think I over watered.
I ph'd the water but I think my ph meter is broken because it takes hours for the reading to stabilize, Hanna said they are sending me a new electrode. Anyway, I had to put about 5 drops of ph down in the tap water (2 gallons) to correct the reading I got. Originally it read 7.6 and finished at 6.5. (I counted the 5 drops by putting a straw about an inch into the ph down and put my finger over the other end of the straw and counted the drops that came out)
I haven't added any nutes to the soil (except two drops of Superthrive to 1 gallon water in the second watering and 2 drops Hygrozyme to 1 gallon water in the third watering.) Let me also say that I do not give the whole gallon of water but I water till the pot becomes heavy and water runs from the bottom holes.

So I'm not sure why I would have crazy salt build up, symptoms of over watering, heat burn or ph lock out. I've ph'd my water, the stress is on the bottom leaves under a T5, I haven't given any nutes and is a brand new bag of ffhf that the other plants are doing fine in. But this is my first grow so I'm mostly interested in keeping my pants alive, I'm not really concerned with yield yet. Just want to see them flower at all right now.

Thanks again for the updated. I really appreciate you taking your time to help me with this. Hopefully as I get better, I'll be able to pass along the knowledge I pick up.

Hillbillybuddha
 
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PaxEtBonum

Member
hillbillybuddha said:
I know you keep saying not to ph my water but my tap water is reading 7.6 isn't that to high?
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That's way too high. I was looking at your plant and it's showing all kinds of deficiencies (from potassium to manganese and phosophorous and even maybe zinc). That shit is locked up because your ph is out of control. For now, you've got to get your water ph down to 6.0 (you'll need it lower than normal to get that ph back into healthy range. Totally disagree with 360. Ph is the first thing to check, always. Your reading, if correct, explains the entire thing. Get your ph down and flush the soil to get it somewhere sensible again, like 6.5. There's no reason to worry about "salts" from PH down if your damn plant is dying because it's locked up. If you've been watering with 7.6 three times, I'm guessing your soil reading is somewhere around 7.1. You've locked it up. Time to unlock it.
 
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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
Like I said a couple times, I used ph down to get my ph to 6.5. I've never watered with my tap water at 7.6. I have always adjusted it to 6.5.

So that's not it. Unless my ph meter isn't reading correctly.

hillbillybuddha said:
I ph'd the water but I think my ph meter is broken because it takes hours for the reading to stabilize, Hanna said they are sending me a new electrode. Anyway, I had to put about 5 drops of ph down in the tap water (2 gallons) to correct the reading I got. <b>Originally it read 7.6 and finished at 6.5</b>. (I counted the 5 drops by putting a straw about an inch into the ph down and put my finger over the other end of the straw and counted the drops that came out)
Hillbillybuddha
Click to expand...
Here I described my ph routine.

hillbillybuddha said:
And just to repeat what I said earlier, tap water, ph'd to 6.5, let sit overnight (or a couple days) to let the chlorine evaporate.
Click to expand...
And I talked about it here as well.

hillbillybuddha said:
The first watering was water only, ph'd to 6.5, and left out over night to let the chlorine evaporate.
Click to expand...
And of course here as well.
 
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PaxEtBonum

Member
hillbillybuddha said:
Like I said a couple times, I used ph down to get my ph to 6.5. I've never watered with my tap water at 7.6. I have always adjusted it to 6.5.

So that's not it. Unless my ph meter isn't reading correctly.
Click to expand...
Did you say you let your water sit out after ph-ing it? Did you check it before you watered after letting it sit out? You know, it is possible that your meter is off and your ph-ing it down way too far and locking it out that way. Go get some distilled water. Let the distilled water get to room temperature. Use your ph meter. It should read 7. If not, your meter is messing with you. When was the last time you calibrated it?
 
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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
I calibrated it the first time I used it about 10 days ago. Hanna is sending me a new electrode for it because it takes so long to get a steady reading. So you might be right about if messing with me. I asked Hanna if it was still reading right and they said it should be but they could be wrong. I used 4.01 and 7.01 to calibrate it.
But I just left the meter in the water over night because it takes hours to settle. I might go get a new ph meter if I have to water before the new electrode gets here.
Thanks PaxEtBonum

Hillbillybuddha
 
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PaxEtBonum

Member
MarijuanaIllustrated.com said:
I use tap water that sits out for weeks and the ph is 8, like 36Oh said, the soil "has built in buffers". FFOF is what I use, with no issues whats so ever. Tap water is easily lowered naturally by a slightly acidic soil ph of 6-7, here this is what I used to help me understand buffers

http://www.cwsnaturally.com/blog/water-chemistry/ph-buffer-total-alkalinity-chlorine-and-poolnaturally-plus/

its for pools but pull what you can
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When you pour high ph-ed or low ph-ed water into soil, the soil will be able to handle it, for a while, and the plant will stay stable as long as the soil ph doesn't get too low or too high. Eventually it will get too high or too low. When you pour Ph 8 water into your soil, you are raising the ph of the soil slightly every single time you add that high ph-ed water. There is no magical soil that will protect a plant from frequent ph waterings at 8. Nutes lockout at seven and above. Maybe you could do a quick autoflowering variety before the soil locked out, but if you're going for a few months with 8, your plant will suffer.

Soil does not have built in buffers. Soil has its own volume and mass and hydrogen ions that will slowly absorb the higher or lower ph. This is called science. You can't make shit up about buffers that protect soil. It's a sponge. It's soaking in the higher or lower ph and eventually it will become that ph level, 8 or what have you.

Swimming pools have a much higher concentration of hydrogen (water) than soil does, so it would naturally require larger quantities of ph up or down to alter it. When you alter ph, you are adjusting the hydrogen ions.
 
Alexander Supertramp

Alexander Supertramp

Well-Known Member
You are not altering the soil simply by the pH of the water, thats BS. My tap water is 7.8 and grows very healthy plants. Looks like the OP Has been overwatering. Plant is also showing signs of a Magnesium and Calcium deficiency.
 
Alexander Supertramp

Alexander Supertramp

Well-Known Member
Also nutes do not lock out at 7 and above. Soil from the lows 6s to the mid 7s will grow MJ just fine. Its not until you fall below 6 or above 8 that you will start seeing lock out.
 
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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
Alexander Supertramp said:
You are not altering the soil simply by the pH of the water, thats BS. My tap water is 7.8 and grows very healthy plants. Looks like the OP Has been overwatering. Plant is also showing signs of a Magnesium and Calcium deficiency.
Click to expand...
But I have not been over watering. I've watered 3x's in 10 days. Each time I wait til the top 1/2 inch to inch of soil is powdery dry.

Also, it started the day after the very first watering. So unless I over watered the very first time, ITS NOT OVER WATERING. Let's figure out what looks like over watering but is not over watering.

Thanks
Hillbillybuddha
 
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hillbillybuddha

Active Member
Which is what I said in my original post

hillbillybuddha said:
I have one plant that's giving me problems. I'm beginning to think that the issue is with the roots. The roots on the 3 other clones where pretty white and the roots on this one had a very slight beige color but they felt strong so I didn't worry about it
Click to expand...
My question is, what do I do about it?

Thanks
 
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