Cree XM-l Panel... Supplementing 730 and up With Halogen
- Thread starter Rrog
- Start date
Rrog
Well-Known Member
After reading many threads on LED reds, it seems the only safe thing to do is use the halogen. LOL. Hit all the red and be done with it. I don't mind supplementing LED with incandescent.
What still vexes me is the photoperiod of red. HPS, CMH, are used very successfully throughout flower, and a hell of a lot more deep red, far red and Infrared is seen with those. And all that red is on all the time. So is the 700+ red wasted using it all day? Is the Emerson Effect just a quick re-set of the clock and we don't need 700+ red all day?
I haven't a clue. That's my biggest question. Is there all-day benefit to the Emerson Effect?
What still vexes me is the photoperiod of red. HPS, CMH, are used very successfully throughout flower, and a hell of a lot more deep red, far red and Infrared is seen with those. And all that red is on all the time. So is the 700+ red wasted using it all day? Is the Emerson Effect just a quick re-set of the clock and we don't need 700+ red all day?
I haven't a clue. That's my biggest question. Is there all-day benefit to the Emerson Effect?
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Nah, plants still use IR during the day. Shade avoidance, root formation and so forth. It's near impossible to say what the bare minimum is that the plant needs in order to perform how we want it to perform (the secret spectrum ratio hasn't been unlocked!!!!). We're wasting energy left and right, it's unavoidable. Your bud's plant looks great, though, that's what matters.
Again, I am not qualified to make any assumptions or suggestions on the subject, but still I can't keep my mouth shut.
http://www.life.illinois.edu/govindjee/Electronic Publications/1963/1963_Gov.pdf
Page 9, I think is saying that Emerson enhancement effect diminishes at stronger light intensities. Maybe not good for higher yields by directly affecting photosynthesis efficacy via Emerson effect, but who knows, might have some nice secondary effects? We are dealing with a constantly adapting organism, theres nothing natural about indoor growing, papers are old and boring, so I say: why the hell not? This is the fun part, experimenting. Observe the differences in morphology etc., if you like what you see, keep doing it or adjust variables for further experimenting and improvements, if you don't like what you see quit or adjust variables. "Simple" and fun! At least I think it is not very likely to totally ruin anything by trying different things.
Remember to share results too!
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
[FONT=Open Sans, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not that I can think of. I say stick with what you're doing. If you've already set the Red to turn on/off at a frequency my mind immediately goes to having the Red on during early/late portions of the day cycle (off midday) to semi-mimic the Sun's natural spectral changes through its "path across the sky" (more Red/IR during sunrise and set). On the other hand, plant metabolic processes reach an equilibrium with time and by constantly changing the light quality (say, if the Red had an on/off schedule of ~30 minutes) you might force the plant to increase the metabolic rate of some of those processes... or you might just confuse/retard the plant, Irdk.
Like I said before, though, and I agree with anomuumi, results are results and the plant looks fantastic.[/FONT]
Like I said before, though, and I agree with anomuumi, results are results and the plant looks fantastic.[/FONT]
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
I've just taken it as gospel from a couple guys in the business on how to use 730 nm. I've talked to Darryl the president of indagro several times and the guy really seems to know his stuff so I have to wonder why if 730 nm was good all the time why would he go to the trouble designing his pontoon with a battery and the circuitry to turn it on at lights out for 5 minutes and not just run it all the time like the 660 nm on the pontoon. I've also talked numerous times with Bill the owner of growlightsource.com about spectrum and his light designs and how he uses the reds including 730 nm for growing and he tests his products in his own garden. From talking to them it seems like a little 730 goes a long way, if you look at the small amount of watts indagro uses and Bill sells a 10 watt 730 nm unit that his site says covers a 8 x 8 area, he thinks if hung 10 above plants it might cover 10 x 12 but kept his coverage claim on the conservative side. Bill also claims to have had better success with combining 660 and 680 over 630 and 660. I think I'll call Bill tomorrow and get his complete view on the subject of 730 nm used more than just at lights out.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
View attachment 2788830
1-2 weeks to go. Captain- I like your 660 supplementation. This grow just has the red at AM/PM. Next grow we might have him look at 660 also during the day. Then the halogen blast in AM / PM as he's doing now.
Wondering about blue...
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
I'm looking forward to getting the 660 lamp but not till Sept. 3-10, must have sent it on a boat. I'm running my UV bulb for 4 hours in the middle of the cycle so I should be getting more blue then, just like midday outside. Couldn't find documents on my brand UV but did for a competitors bulb that tested the same, supposedly rated 6500k.
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Rrog
Well-Known Member
On another forum, my friend Weezard commented:
730 nm. will cause stretch.
635 nm. will make buds.
652 nm. will make large, tight buds.
Those of you that know him I'm sure respect him as much as I do. With respect to his comment about 730, he's referring (not reefering) to constant 730, not to its use as AM / PM burst.
Here's what Supra did: (I added the wavelengths)
Oslon SSL80 deep red 3T bin (ISLED) 4T bin available possibly this fall 645nm
Luxeon ES deep red EX6 bin (stevesLEDS) 660-670
Luxeon ES deep blue M4R bin (stevesLEDs) 450nm
Cree XPE red P3 bin (Cutter or LEDGroupbuy) If there is a red XPE2 P4 bin that would be awesome 630nm
Cree XTE 3000K R3 bin (Cutter)
Other posts by serious growers show that thoughts on the 600-700nm area are all over the board. Clearly there's some awesomeness happening, and it ain't happening enough with straight whites, at least the Cree XM-L's. So it would seem that the Halogen lamp again looms as a contender for me. Yes, the 700+ red can stretch. Looking at the previous images of my buddy's grow, he probably could have used a tad more stretch, anyhow.
The red is so comprehensive with a lamp, and there's just not a broad 600-700 LED LED solution that doesn't leave out a potentially good wavelength. So that's what I'm noodling over while eating...
730 nm. will cause stretch.
635 nm. will make buds.
652 nm. will make large, tight buds.
Those of you that know him I'm sure respect him as much as I do. With respect to his comment about 730, he's referring (not reefering) to constant 730, not to its use as AM / PM burst.
Here's what Supra did: (I added the wavelengths)
Oslon SSL80 deep red 3T bin (ISLED) 4T bin available possibly this fall 645nm
Luxeon ES deep red EX6 bin (stevesLEDS) 660-670
Luxeon ES deep blue M4R bin (stevesLEDs) 450nm
Cree XPE red P3 bin (Cutter or LEDGroupbuy) If there is a red XPE2 P4 bin that would be awesome 630nm
Cree XTE 3000K R3 bin (Cutter)
Other posts by serious growers show that thoughts on the 600-700nm area are all over the board. Clearly there's some awesomeness happening, and it ain't happening enough with straight whites, at least the Cree XM-L's. So it would seem that the Halogen lamp again looms as a contender for me. Yes, the 700+ red can stretch. Looking at the previous images of my buddy's grow, he probably could have used a tad more stretch, anyhow.
The red is so comprehensive with a lamp, and there's just not a broad 600-700 LED LED solution that doesn't leave out a potentially good wavelength. So that's what I'm noodling over while eating...
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
Part of the problem is sourcing certain spectrum's to experiment with. I tried to find 680 nm and was told by a supplier that nun of the major companies make it and it was a custom order. This was confirmed by Bill at growlightsourse that told me his 660,680 combo was custom and he didn't know of anyone else using that. It's the chicken or egg thing, major companies won't make it unless there is demand and you can't generate demand if you don't have access to prove it's worth using. Some say 660 and higher deep reds are not that important but I think they play a role and it's just how much is the question,my 660 nm light is on its way. By the way,Steve's LED now has 3 watt 730-740 nm LED's that can run at 700 ma.
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
FWIW, I was under the impression that IR will cause stretch, especially in combination with Green light, however, Deep Red and Blue counteracts IR stretch. As long as Deep Red is at a ratio greater than 1.2:1 (DR:IR, respectively) you should for the most part be able to keep stretch at a minimum via the use of a little added Blue. Take that with a grain of salt, but personally I like the idea of using Halogen.
GL.
GL.
Rrog
Well-Known Member
Spheda- What are the spectrums for FR, DR and IR? That's interesting. Thank you for that.
My friend's grow right now is just coming to 10 weeks and mostly clear trichs. He's just doing the Halogen bursts 2X a day. We discussed the potential benefit of increasing that red to some or all day. Or 15 minute pulses. But he opted to go the distance as-is and see what comes. Limit the variables. Next run unfortunately he's running another strain, but at the moment I'm thinking of added red again with Halogen and some added blue source
My friend's grow right now is just coming to 10 weeks and mostly clear trichs. He's just doing the Halogen bursts 2X a day. We discussed the potential benefit of increasing that red to some or all day. Or 15 minute pulses. But he opted to go the distance as-is and see what comes. Limit the variables. Next run unfortunately he's running another strain, but at the moment I'm thinking of added red again with Halogen and some added blue source
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
I searched Google and found this:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194053
Lots of links at the bottom, none of which I've read, but probably some good stuff to help you get your bearings.
In my mind you don't have to worry so much about the spectrum/number of Watts. 60W of halogen shouldn't throw you off a ton, imo. If you add supplemental Deep Red LEDs I wouldn't imagine it will be very hard to swing the ratio back into Deep Red's favor. Also, there are multichips on eBay being sold as "grow spectrum" that have 660nm and 450nm in about an 8:1 ratio - check here; 42mil Red, 45mil Blue. Those should be relatively high quality. I've seen multichips very similar to these, yet higher Wattage, and it usually throws the ratio off with a bit more Blue.
GL. Can't wait to see what you guys come up with, as well as the results.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194053
Lots of links at the bottom, none of which I've read, but probably some good stuff to help you get your bearings.
In my mind you don't have to worry so much about the spectrum/number of Watts. 60W of halogen shouldn't throw you off a ton, imo. If you add supplemental Deep Red LEDs I wouldn't imagine it will be very hard to swing the ratio back into Deep Red's favor. Also, there are multichips on eBay being sold as "grow spectrum" that have 660nm and 450nm in about an 8:1 ratio - check here; 42mil Red, 45mil Blue. Those should be relatively high quality. I've seen multichips very similar to these, yet higher Wattage, and it usually throws the ratio off with a bit more Blue.
GL. Can't wait to see what you guys come up with, as well as the results.
You sound a little disappointed to some aspects of this grow? Is it mainly because of plant morphology, not ripening fast enough, bud structure etc? May I ask what are your goals in the long run with leds, are you looking for better performance than HID in quantity or are your goals more quality oriented? Of course there are other factors like silence, heat production, learning experience
Anyways, thanks for the show so far, I think you have allready proven that all white will suit micro growers really well for compact and very healthy looking plants! Hoping to see further experiments with enriched spectrums or other trickery you have in your mind.
Anyways, thanks for the show so far, I think you have allready proven that all white will suit micro growers really well for compact and very healthy looking plants! Hoping to see further experiments with enriched spectrums or other trickery you have in your mind.
Green in The Garden
Member
regarding the 730/850 ect. talk.. i read somewhere that the most of infra red leds 730, 850 ect., is not directly 730.. for an exsample.. if you got a 730, it will proberly give out a spectrum, that reads 712-730.. and a 850 will maybe doing 830-850... sorry i cant remember the site/link.. maybe some of you Guys can tell more about it? prove this or unprove this??