True F1's vs Clones

[Brotherdoses]

Just wondering peoples thoughts on F1 seeds and or F1 seeds vs clones.

I was also wanting to know how to know if your seeds are true F1 seeds. Do you have to grow them out to look for uniformity or is it only the genes of the parents? I assume either but genes would be a must to really know.

If you had two clones that when breed offered you true F1 seeds and they happened to make a good hybrid, why not grow out or continually supply the F1 seeds? Is this not what most farmers purchase, and seed companies supply? Stabilizing a strain sounds awesome (and I want to over the next decade, LOL) but true F1 seeds seem useful.

Any thoughts on the subject other then personal preference?

 

[kgp]

An F1 is a cross. Breeding stability can be done by selecting F1's and breeding to make F2s. F3, f4. Each time becoming more stable. S1 is self pollinating a plant. Femenized. Very unstable. Phenos could be all over the place.You can clone any of the above. So you really cant compare apples to oranges.

 

[Brotherdoses]

OK. Maybe I should have only said F1's. Besides having to cull the males they seem useful.
What Kind of uniformity do cannabis F1 seeds offer? True F1 seeds, not the first generation of any old cross.

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

OK. Maybe I should have only said F1's. Besides having to cull the males they seem useful.
What Kind of uniformity do cannabis F1 seeds offer? True F1 seeds, not the first generation of any old cross.

What is the difference? I am trying to learn about genetics and selection, etc. Good stuff.

 

[calicat]

What is the difference? I am trying to learn about genetics and selection, etc. Good stuff.

There is no uniformity from F1 seeds. You would have to go multiple generations to achieve that like KGP stated. And to answer your initial question which is debatable. Typically a f1 cross will yield more than a clone of the same strain if grown in the same exact conditions. F1 cross you typically have symmetrical growth from clones you usually do not. The beauty of clones is that if you were lucky to obtain a keeper from an f1 cross then you do not have to worry about variability because they are an exact replica of the mother.

 

[Brotherdoses]

What is the difference? I am trying to learn about genetics and selection, etc. Good stuff.

I am not 100% sure with cannabis. I would think it is the same as other plants though........That I know of a true F1 comes from two different spices, two genetically diverse plants or two stabilized plants. A F1 is a filial (first generation) and only the first, but I do not know the truth about the gene requirements of the parents to have the the seeds show uniformity.

If you take any old seeds and cross them, they might be the first generation of seed for that individual but what if they are a continued Bohdi line? Then they are really F3's, 4's or what ever they are but not true F1's. They then will not offer uniformity nor will they have hybrid vigor. Once you go past a F2 the pheno line is open for all. I need to look into the amount of genes given by a hybrid plant vs a stabilized plant. It kind of makes sense now. I do know true F1 seeds offer uniformity any old hybrid will not. Cannabis being a plant has to be the same. I would think.


EDIT: So a continued line would not offer vigor but a cross would.???? I think.

 

[Brotherdoses]

So any cross is a F1 and they have stable/non stable F1's. Either from homozygous parents or non homozygous parents. This seems to be what I am getting from Wikipedia the most trusted source of all.

 

[kgp]

So any cross is a F1 and they have stable/non stable F1's. Either from homozygous parents on non homozygous parents. This seems to be what I am getting from Wikipedia the most trusted source of all.

That's correct, the more stable the parents are, the more stable the F1's will be. But selecting certain pheno and breeding the the F1's to make F2s you csn stabilize the traits you are trying for. Also back crossing the f1 yo the original parent can also stabilize the breeding.

 

[Brotherdoses]

That's correct, the more stable the parents are, the more stable the F1's will be. But selecting certain pheno and breeding the the F1's to make F2s you csn stabilize the traits you are trying for. Also back crossing the f1 yo the original parent can also stabilize the breeding.

I was originally wondering about undermining or sidestepping the stabilizing processes but it just does not seem possible if you need two stable plants to make a stable F1. Funny.... Its almost like what came first, the chicken or the egg? In this case we know.

 

[Galvatron]

any cross from two strains will produce f1. the stability of the parents are not that that important to the stability of the f1 generation in terms of uniformity. the thing that passes through is dominance, if one plants genetics are more dominant then that will show up in the f1's as the dominant expressed phenotype. once you cross the f1's to each other you will get the f2's which will show more of both sides of the parents genetics.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

An F1 is a cross. Breeding stability can be done by selecting F1's and breeding to make F2s. F3, f4. Each time becoming more stable. S1 is self pollinating a plant. Femenized. Very unstable. Phenos could be all over the place.You can clone any of the above. So you really cant compare apples to oranges.

True F1's are extremely uniform.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

What is the difference? I am trying to learn about genetics and selection, etc. Good stuff.

A true F1 is bred from two highly homozygous plants. Homozygous plants are stable. The resulting F1 will also be stable. The F2's will show great variation representing either parent plant and everything in between.

XX is crossed to xx (true F1)

Produces plants that are all Xx.

Xx crossed to Xx (f2)

will produce plants that are XX, Xx or xx

 

[kgp]

True F1's are extremely uniform.

But if you select the phenos your breeding for, the further you breed the more uniform the plants will be. Look at sannies jack. F7 I believe. The seeds are like clones. Very little differences.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Jack Herer is a polyhybrid. Sannie has bred it to be more stable by selecting for his preferences. Sannies Jack is an example of a strain you would use to produce a true F1.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

If you cross a polyhybrid to a polyhybrid, you can call it an F1 if you want, but it's not going to be stable where every plant is the same or similar - you might get lucky for 2 or 3 traits being stable or even more (in the initial cross)- but the whole plant? Not ever. Stability of parents is important in this distinction. The OP is aware of it.

 

[kgp]

I'm far from an expert. I'm picking your brain, knowledge is power. . So it's similar to breeding dogs. Which I've done for many years. Example : You cross a puddle with a wolf. The litter will come out as all poodle/wolves. A cross from both parents. You breed a brother and sister from the same litter, you will get some that look like wolves, and some like poodles. By selective breeding you can breed the poodle out by crossing the wolf Dom genes.
My question is in an earlier post, it was said that the stability of the parents don't matter, only dominant traits will be passed. My question is, isn't a stable plant going to have the dominant traits? Aren't these dominant traits that defines stable what one looks for when making a f1?

 

[kgp]

One more. Lol sorry op for hijacking, but it seems the info can be appreciated by many.

i have a chemd that produces big sticky sticky buds. I have some docs og seed and a bomb male. I want to create a og with bigger yeild and a touch of chem lemon funk in the og pine sol fuel. An f1 would be my best option ? Make the og Dom female as mother because she will have both of the parents genes? Or continue the selection and breed my picks back to each other creating f2, f3 etc until I am happy with what a consider a stable og/chem hybrid?

 

[OGEvilgenius]

That earlier post was incorrect. Stability of parents matters.

 

[Brotherdoses]

DAMN! Oh how it would be nice to have some land again. It kind of sounds like luck of the draw on your F1 if starting from two unstable plants. It seems that it could be good ,average or bad. Once you got to the F2 seeds though, you could then find the phenos your looking for and start the stabilization process.No? If you can keep clones of the plants you breed with until you know how they effect the ones crossed with. You can then go back on a undesired cross. I read some info on Subcool using the same male to cross with and over time he has learned what traits seem to pass on. Although I would think it could change depending on the female used. Don't know. I can see how this could really become time consuming and take up a lot of space. Unfortunately its so damn addicting! Growing info that is.

I did some pollen chucking with a Cck female and a Goji og male. I figured if the first seeds are not the greatest it would be fun to start a pheno hunt. Nothing serious just over time. Maybe I will find a gem. I think this will be my start. I do need to get a real book on breeding plants though. Its time to drown my self in info and stop scratching the surface, experience I cant speed up.

No worries about thread jacking. Its all good info!

 

[kona gold]

Jack Herer is a polyhybrid. Sannie has bred it to be more stable by selecting for his preferences. Sannies Jack is an example of a strain you would use to produce a true F1.

I agree with all of what your saying.....as the more stable the parental material usually the more true your f1's will be.
That's why good breeders who sell f1's are successful....like nl x haze......
There are other factors as welll......mainly combineability. What this means is how the genetics combine. You can have an f1 cross that shows both plants you used......like some offspring will have purple hairs,some pink, and some white, and they will take on either parents traits. Then you have f1's that have great combining abilities......these will have more hybrid vigor and they will combine into a new strain altogether. This is what i look for most of my breeds, cause i want a completely different combination when i am crossing. Sometimes i am purposefully tring to lock down one of the parents that i am using, for that strains unique profile.....but for most part i am trying to come up with different flavor combinations and types of highs.
Hard to trust seed companies to have such stock to work from.........and just cause you have an f5-7 doent mean it's stabilized! That is up to good breeding. People can make different selections each generation and potentially have a very unstable f7....up to selection and selection has to be consistant. Look at dj short blueberry....a highly worked line....but soooo much variation.....i would call that f'ed not f5.