True F1's vs Clones

[Jogro]

This is pretty simple, actually.

*IF* you are starting with TWO good inbred lines as parents, then all the F1s from those parents will be substantially similar. Since even within inbred lines there may be some genetic variation (ie except under fairly unusual circumstances, in nature, populations aren't comprised of genetically identical individuals), you may see *some* variation between F1s made this way, but they'll be pretty darn close, and for practical purposes, similar.

Of course if you're talking about clones, then ALL individuals cloned from a particular parent will be genetically identical.

Why go one over the other? Again, very simple.

Without going over ever possible one, starting from ceeds vs starting from clones each carries its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

Stipulating that clones from one particular F1 plant are likely to be similar to ANY F1 from the same parents, there are times when you might want to use clones (eg to save on sexing, and/or germination or veg time) or times when you might want to go from ceed (because you don't have a mother, don't want to keep one, WANT males, etc).

 

[Jogro]

I was also wanting to know how to know if your seeds are true F1 seeds. Do you have to grow them out to look for uniformity or is it only the genes of the parents? I assume either but genes would be a must to really know.

Well, in practice, you can't know this short of growing out a whole bunch of them and seeing if they are similar. One possible clue, is that even ceeds can have their own phenotypes. If you just look at a bunch of ceeds, and they all look different, its probably safe to assume they'll grow into different looking plants, too. I'm not just talking about seed maturity, but overall size, color, shape, coat pattern, etc.

Also note that used correctly, the term "F1" implies that both parents are true-breeding. However, in the cannabis world, a lot of genetic/scientific terms with specific technical meanings (including "strain") get tossed around in an imprecise way, in some cases by people who don't know the true meanings.

For example, some people will use the term "F1" imprecisely to refer to any cross between two parents, even if the parents are themselves hybrids (and therefore themselves perhaps F1s, F3s. . .who knows). If your parents strains are different F1s (or F2s, whatever) then the offspring of that sort of cross is probably best termed a "polyhybrid", rather than an F1. Now in practice, if you're breeding, and you cross two hybrids, well, you have to call that cross *something*. Calling it an F1 makes a sort of empirical sense, even if not necessarily a "pure" genetic one.

If you had two clones that when breed offered you true F1 seeds and they happened to make a good hybrid, why not grow out or continually supply the F1 seeds?

Well, if you were interested in these ceeds, you certainly could.

Not only do lots of ceed companies do exactly what you say and sell ceeds like this year in, year out, but its not confined to just cannabis. F1 hybrids of this type are commonly sold commercially for all sorts of crops.

Is this not what most farmers purchase, and seed companies supply? Stabilizing a strain sounds awesome (and I want to over the next decade, LOL) but true F1 seeds seem useful.

I think this depends on what's being farmed here, but in general, you're correct. There is a big global market for what amounts to F1 se-eds of all sorts of things, and even today F1 cannabis ceeds are popular and can be good choices.

Any thoughts on the subject other then personal preference?

Yes. F1 ceeds offer classical "hybrid vigor" (aka "heterosis"), where if you cross two entirely dissimilar true breeding lines, you'll often end up with plants that offer fast growth, high yields, and other desirable characteristics. That and simple consistency are the two most attractive things about F1s.

 

[Jogro]

I'm not responding here to "pick" on kgp, but just to clarify a few things.

An F1 is a cross.

Yes it is, but its not just "any" cross. The term F1 refers specifically to a cross between two inbred lines to create a novel hybrid. More generically, it refers to the first cross of any two individuals of interest in a particular pedigree.

Breeding stability can be done by selecting F1's and breeding to make F2s. F3, f4. Each time becoming more stable.

Yes, conventional breeding is done by starting with two inbred lines, crossing them to create a uniform F1, crossing THOSE to create a highly variable F2, doing selection, then repeat selection to stabilize desired traits.

No matter HOW you do the selection, if you keep inbreeding this way, eventually you'll end up with something "stable". But just to be clear, "stability" and "quality" are typically entirely independent of one another.

For example, "Girl Scout Cookies" and "Sour Diesel" are each unstable, but lots of people really like both of those. In contrast, common ditchweed hemp is probably pretty stable. . .don't think anyone wants to smoke it.

When you're breeding, how you do the selection not only matters, but its absolutely critical, if you want to avoid the cannabis genetic equivalent of these two guys:

S1 is self pollinating a plant. Femenized. Very unstable. Phenos could be all over the place.You can clone any of the above. So you really cant compare apples to oranges.

S1 refers to self-pollenization, yes, and with cannabis S1 ceeds are "feminized". . .if you cross a female plant with itself you would expect to get all female offspring.

But an S1 is ultimately just a sexual cross of a plant with itself. How "stable" the offspring of a cross like this are depends entirely on how stable the parent is. If the parent is an unstable hybrid (like most of the "clone only" lines), then sure, an S1 could throw off a wide variety of phenos, some of which, perhaps, will be entirely UNLIKE the parent.

On the other hand, if you were to generate S1 ceeds from a true-breeding line, not only would all the offspring be similar to each other, they'd also be similar to the parent.

 

[Jogro]

Again, not picking on Kona Gold here, just expanding on some concepts

I agree with all of what your saying.....as the more stable the parental material usually the more true your f1's will be.
That's why good breeders who sell f1's are successful....like nl x haze......

Agreeing entirely with the first part of this, not just "any" F1 is going to be good, even if the parents are stable. Again, uniformity, and quality aren't necessarily synonymous. If you start with a crap NL and a crap haze, you may have entirely uniform. . .but crap. . .F1 NLxHaze plants.

On breeders "success", well, suffice it to say that not every good breeder is successful professionally, and not every person who is successful selling beans is a fundamentally good breeder. Again, skill of breeder, and success. . .they don't always go together. In a black marker where hype and persona sell beans its not always about quality.

Hard to trust seed companies to have such stock to work from.

Ultimately ceed companies have the exact same access to all the commercial banks as anyone else. They can buy any strain that anyone else can, and in many cases actually DO start with off the shelf commercial genetics (though they're not always honest about it when they do). In many cases, they also (via personal connections) have access to stuff that isn't necessarily commercially available. IMO, the limiting factor in breeding isn't simply access to good genetic material, its RECOGNIZING what's really good to start with, plus the hard work and skill necessary to transform good starting genetics into a novel combination of high quality.

........and just cause you have an f5-7 doent mean it's stabilized! That is up to good breeding. People can make different selections each generation and potentially have a very unstable f7....up to selection and selection has to be consistant. Look at dj short blueberry....a highly worked line....but soooo much variation.....i would call that f'ed not f5.

If you're doing classical breeding (described above) where every succeeding generation you retain only two individuals and cross them, you eventually WILL hit "stability", no matter how you do the selection. No this won't happen at F5, but probably by F8.

The reason is that by design this type of selection creates genetic "bottlenecking"; every time you continue your line from only two individuals you're excluding genes from the plants you don't select, and reducing the amount of genetic diversity in what's left of your gene pool. Eventually you'll have minimal diversity left, and you're "stable." Again, your "stable" line may not even be worthy for cattle feed, but every plant will be similar!

The reality is, though, that most breeders aren't doing it that way. They're either doing "backcrosses" where you reintroduce genetics from earlier generations, or stopping way short of F7, and typically both things.

On DJ short Blueberry, its hard to know what's going on there. I think the simple explanation is that there are multiple different "blueberry" lines out there, and not only are they different from each other, they probably reflect different levels of inbreeding. Some of them are probably legitimately "unstable" because they've been hybridized with other things along the way and/or never really stabilized to begin with.

Supposedly some of the original Thai parents of blueberry were also genetically unstable in the literal sense of that term, meaning not that they were "hybridized", but rather that they carried genetic/chromosomal defects making them prone to mutation. If this is true, it could explain some phenotypic variation seen in the line.

 

[kona gold]

Again, not picking on Kona Gold here, just expanding on some concepts

Agreeing entirely with the first part of this, not just "any" F1 is going to be good, even if the parents are stable. Again, uniformity, and quality aren't necessarily synonymous. If you start with a crap NL and a crap haze, you may have entirely uniform. . .but crap. . .F1 NLxHaze plants.

On breeders "success", well, suffice it to say that not every good breeder is successful professionally, and not every person who is successful selling beans is a fundamentally good breeder. Again, skill of breeder, and success. . .they don't always go together. In a black marker where hype and persona sell beans its not always about quality.


Ultimately ceed companies have the exact same access to all the commercial banks as anyone else. They can buy any strain that anyone else can, and in many cases actually DO start with off the shelf commercial genetics (though they're not always honest about it when they do). In many cases, they also (via personal connections) have access to stuff that isn't necessarily commercially available. IMO, the limiting factor in breeding isn't simply access to good genetic material, its RECOGNIZING what's really good to start with, plus the hard work and skill necessary to transform good starting genetics into a novel combination of high quality.


If you're doing classical breeding (described above) where every succeeding generation you retain only two individuals and cross them, you eventually WILL hit "stability", no matter how you do the selection. No this won't happen at F5, but probably by F8.

The reason is that by design this type of selection creates genetic "bottlenecking"; every time you continue your line from only two individuals you're excluding genes from the plants you don't select, and reducing the amount of genetic diversity in what's left of your gene pool. Eventually you'll have minimal diversity left, and you're "stable." Again, your "stable" line may not even be worthy for cattle feed, but every plant will be similar!

The reality is, though, that most breeders aren't doing it that way. They're either doing "backcrosses" where you reintroduce genetics from earlier generations, or stopping way short of F7, and typically both things.

On DJ short Blueberry, its hard to know what's going on there. I think the simple explanation is that there are multiple different "blueberry" lines out there, and not only are they different from each other, they probably reflect different levels of inbreeding. Some of them are probably legitimately "unstable" because they've been hybridized with other things along the way and/or never really stabilized to begin with.

Supposedly some of the original Thai parents of blueberry were also genetically unstable in the literal sense of that term, meaning not that they were "hybridized", but rather that they carried genetic/chromosomal defects making them prone to mutation. If this is true, it could explain some phenotypic variation seen in the line.

Dont worry about picking on me.....i'm all good with it.
Now on inbreeding.......almost all of the best srrains were inbred for tears and years. Northern lights has been inbred for like 35 years now and still going. Simon at Serious seeds has been inbreeding his lines forever and they still are strong. I know he incorporated some afghani to some of his lines a few years back....not sure if it was to invigorate his lines or to just get more weight. Also all landraces that have been worked by family for generations are heavily inbred.....but probably are pollenated by many males of the same line for some diversity.....but inbreeding does not mean the strain is weak genetically or watered down......that happens with poor selection.
Now if iwas to take say Jack the Ripper and cross it with say Girl Scout Cookie and i make a cross(f-1). I then select from those seeds some phenos that i like and cross again(f-2). Then i select from that group a cherry smelling female and cross her and a selected male(f-3). Then in the next round i select a female that has a lemon minty smell and use that for my seed parent and another select male(f-4). This time another pheno appears with a cherry chocolate mint and i use that for my next parent and select another male.......this kind of random selection process can lead to an unstable plant no matter how long this wont be stable cause i selected poorly and inconsistantly on a line that was from polyhybrids. So not always true about stability.
Also if you take to true breeding strains and make an f'-1, most of the time you will get fairly uniform offspring for sure. But if you have read Marijuana Botony, which you probably have, there is special anomolies that can happen. This is how, supposedly, skunk#1 was created. When you cross certain strains, you can get a different variety alltogether. Shunk#1 doesnt have acapulco gold, columbian gold or afghani(possibly thai also) phenos.....it's just skunk#r. Now even past the f-1 generation it was skunk#1. Basically it combined in a way that it took on it's own characteristics. You can't breed out the columbian gold from it or afghani, they have combined. I cant remember the term, i wan't to say GCF, but that might be for greatest common factor for math.
But what your saying is pretty much true for the standard situations.

 

[kgp]

I'm not responding here to "pick" on kgp, but just to clarify a few things.

Never. I appreciate the knowledge.

No matter HOW you do the selection, if you keep inbreeding this way, eventually you'll end up with something "stable". But just to be clear, "stability" and "quality" are typically entirely independent of one another.

When you're breeding, how you do the selection not only matters, but its absolutely critical, if you want to avoid the cannabis genetic equivalent of these two guys:

I guess I took that as common sense. You're breeding to better the genetics, not to make the shittiest buds possible. lol

 

[Jogro]

Dont worry about picking on me.....i'm all good with it.
Now on inbreeding.......almost all of the best srrains were inbred for tears and years. Northern lights has been inbred for like 35 years now and still going.

Well, to be clear, there are probably 1-2 dozen different things out there CALLED "Northern lights" right now, and they're not all the same.

As you're implying, coming up with inbred lines used to be the goal of breeding projects. Part of doing it right is doing the appropriate selections to minimize impact of negative recessive genes, sort of the opposite of "hybrid vigor" where severely inbred lines show slow growth or other negative characteristics.

The reason something like Skunk #1 or NL#5 or any landrace can still be good after being inbred for 100+ generations is because bad plants/genetics are constantly being selected AGAINST along the way. Not incidentally, the original Skunk #1 wasn't done with linear selection involving choice of individual plants. It was done by choosing a number of great plants from a large pool, and then open pollinating those individuals. So it was done with a more "open" type selection deliberately designed to preserve some genetic variation in the line.

Now if iwas to take say Jack the Ripper and cross it with say Girl Scout Cookie and i make a cross(f-1). I then select from those seeds some phenos that i like and cross again(f-2). Then i select from that group a cherry smelling female and cross her and a selected male(f-3). Then in the next round i select a female that has a lemon minty smell and use that for my seed parent and another select male(f-4). This time another pheno appears with a cherry chocolate mint and i use that for my next parent and select another male.......this kind of random selection process can lead to an unstable plant no matter how long this wont be stable cause i selected poorly and inconsistantly on a line that was from polyhybrids. So not always true about stability.

In a word, no.

By definition, every time you do a selection you're reducing the amount of genetic diversity remaining in your selected line (ie that's the whole point of selection!), and the first few selections necessarily take out the greatest amount of genes. By random assortment, you may see different phenos the first few generations, but now matter how you do the selections, if you keep inbreeding without doing any backcrosses, or introducing new outside genetic material, by the time you get to an F4-F5 you're going see fairly few phenos, because most of the genetic diversity will have been bred out. Assuming you were using reasonable number to begin with, by the time you get past an F4 or so, its just highly unlikely that all of a sudden you're going to see new traits will emerge that you didn't see before.

By the time you get to an F12, you're going to have some sort of inbred line. Again, it may be an absolutely fantastic line, or an absolutely lousy one, but that depends on what genetics you started with and how you did your selection along the way. Two different breeders can start with identical parents, and end up with totally different lines via different types of selection. For example, supposedly broccoli, cabbage, kale, brussel sprouts all came from the same precursor plant, just selectively bred in different directions!

But if you have read Marijuana Botony, which you probably have, [you'd know[ there is special anomolies that can happen. This is how, supposedly, skunk#1 was created. When you cross certain strains, you can get a different variety alltogether.

I'm not entirely sure exactly what you're referring to here, but but new traits can arise two different ways:

-Mutation can create entirely new genetics, de novo. Most mutations are harmful, but every once in a while you'll get one that's interesting or beneficial. Some traits like odd color and/or weird leaf shapes undoubtedly arose this way. If you look at the total cannabis gene pool, most traits did ultimately arise via mutation, just over thousands of years and generations.

-Just by scrambling genes that have never been crossed before, ordinary hybridization can create new traits. For example, if I cross a red rose and a white one, I might get pink roses. The pink rose doesn't have new genes not found in either parent, just that combination creates a previously unseed phenotype. This kind of thing explains some of the interesting qualities of F1 hybrids, for example.

Shunk#1 doesnt have acapulco gold, columbian gold or afghani(possibly thai also) phenos.....it's just skunk#r. Now even past the f-1 generation it was skunk#1. Basically it combined in a way that it took on it's own characteristics. You can't breed out the columbian gold from it or afghani, they have combined. I cant remember the term, i wan't to say GCF, but that might be for greatest common factor for math.

This is kind of interesting.

I wasn't "there", but supposedly the first few generations of commercial Skunk #1 actually weren't stable (yet), and you WOULD actually see different AG, CG, and or Afghani dominant phenos. Of course after being inbred for 20+ generations, the plant is stable, and these different phenos were "smoothed out", so to speak.

But even after all these years, the plants still contains SOME genes from each of the parents. . .just not enough of them to recreate the entire genome of any of them. Some of the genetic material from the parents was (deliberately) in trying to combine the best traits from each.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

There's only ever been one mutation, at least that I know of, that's been demonstrated beneficial in a lab. So don't bank on them happening very often. It took almost 20 years of experiments to discover this as well and 31,000+ generations.

 

[Jogro]

There's only ever been one mutation, at least that I know of, that's been demonstrated beneficial in a lab. So don't bank on them happening very often. It took almost 20 years of experiments to discover this as well and 31,000+ generations.

Well, most cannabis plant grows aren't documented in a lab. Also, the rate of mutation is likely quite a bit higher in plants than animals. Most mutations are silent. . .they have no visible 'pheno'.

The number I vaguely remember (and I think it was from DJ short's breeding book) is that about 1 in 1000 plants will demonstrate some kind of mutation, with the overwhelming majority of them being negative.

That's nowhere near frequent enough that you can rely on these to do any sort of breeding with them, but it is frequent enough that if your grow lots of plants, sooner or later you'll probably see one. There probably are things you can do to increase the mutation rate, if you wanted to, though I can think of many good reasons why you probably don't.

In general, there are plenty of beneficial mutations out there. If you think about it, most variation within a gene pool can ultimately be traced back to mutation. The issue here is really selection bias. Even though they're astronomically rare, beneficial mutations get preserved, and therefore increase their frequency in the gene pool. The 99.999% of mutations that aren't beneficial disappear.

 

[Jogro]

You're breeding to better the genetics, not to make the shittiest buds possible. lol

You'd think so, right?

If I were breeding (I'm not) it would be specifically to create strains that aren't commercially available that I think are interesting. I wouldn't presume to think that I could make anything better than the best of what's already out there, but I think I might be able to come up with "better niche" genetics.

But lots of commercial breeders aren't really interested in that sort of thing at all. Many just want to make money (NTTAWWT). Some just want to create buds that THEY like best (again, NTTAWWT). Real breeding is hard work, and its a bit risky (sometimes projects just don't work and doing it right requires lots of plants, potentially causing legal exposure). . .explaining why not many people do it.

If you take a look at what's being put out nowadays, probably 80% of it is just crosses of name "clone only" strains with each other. Its easy to do, and it usually yields good results, but its hardly improving the gene pool or coming up with anything new. How many wheel-reinventing crosses with "OG Kush" do we really need?

 

[kona gold]

Well, most cannabis plant grows aren't documented in a lab. Also, the rate of mutation is likely quite a bit higher in plants than animals. Most mutations are silent. . .they have no visible 'pheno'.

The number I vaguely remember (and I think it was from DJ short's breeding book) is that about 1 in 1000 plants will demonstrate some kind of mutation, with the overwhelming majority of them being negative.

That's nowhere near frequent enough that you can rely on these to do any sort of breeding with them, but it is frequent enough that if your grow lots of plants, sooner or later you'll probably see one. There probably are things you can do to increase the mutation rate, if you wanted to, though I can think of many good reasons why you probably don't.

In general, there are plenty of beneficial mutations out there. If you think about it, most variation within a gene pool can ultimately be traced back to mutation. The issue here is really selection bias. Even though they're astronomically rare, beneficial mutations get preserved, and therefore increase their frequency in the gene pool. The 99.999% of mutations that aren't beneficial disappear.

I guess that depends on your idea, definition; of mutation? You could mean literally, like the plant has genetically changed, adapted, for survival, or advancement purposes. Or do you mean mutated, as in polyploid ........or mutated liked webbed leaves, distorted abnornal leaves, branching or growth?
If Dj Short says mutations only occur at a rate 1 per 1000.....i must be hella unlucky to have had two of them.....and seen friends have some as well.
I have seen many slight mutations alot, most revert back to normal growth.....some continue w/the mutation, some die, and occasionally, one turns out worth the effort.

Aloha Jogrow.....would yyou happen to know the proceedure to download photo's from my phone to this forum? I wanted to post some pics of my Williams Wonder and see if they look similar to ones you did, plus some other grows i did.
Mahalo for any help

 

[OGEvilgenius]

A mutation is basically an error in transcription (instead of A and G you get A and T or something). They usually aren't beneficial. I have no idea if they are more common in plants or animals, I do know that studying E. Coli they only discovered one beneficial mutation (that eventually became common in the gene pool) over 20 years and 31,000 generations. Like I said, super rare and not something to bet on. Most mutations are neutral or negative. Negative recessive combinations I think are sometimes confused for mutations. Mutations are when the actual genetic code is modified on transcription (just a little bit).

You can definitely induce mutations and some have speculated that DJ Short used cochline (sp?) to create blueberry, but I highly highly doubt it (and there's nothing resembling evidence either other than some random forum posts with no backing).

 

[kona gold]

A mutation is basically an error in transcription (instead of A and G you get A and T or something). They usually aren't beneficial. I have no idea if they are more common in plants or animals, I do know that studying E. Coli they only discovered one beneficial mutation (that eventually became common in the gene pool) over 20 years and 31,000 generations. Like I said, super rare and not something to bet on. Most mutations are neutral or negative. Negative recessive combinations I think are sometimes confused for mutations. Mutations are when the actual genetic code is modified on transcription (just a little bit).

You can definitely induce mutations and some have speculated that DJ Short used cochline (sp?) to create blueberry, but I highly highly doubt it (and there's nothing resembling evidence either other than some random forum posts with no backing).

it just depends how hard core your definition of mutation is.

I never fully understood Dj Short's blueberry.......can't exactally remember but.......afghani x oregon purple thai of highland thai..........i mean which is it??????? Why doesn't he know??? Only things i can think are, he didn't label his plants.....or he bred with one, but another plant near it hermed and also pollenated his already pollenated plant, so as not to be sure of the parent.

Someone please explain this to me.......cause how can someone be called a top breeder if he doesn't even know the parental material?

 

[Jogro]

I guess that depends on your idea, definition; of mutation?

Like most of the terms from genetics and botany "mutation" has a very specific definition, though many times people don't understand these terms and/or use them incorrectly.

The term mutation refers to a (permanent) change in DNA sequence, that's all. In most cases this means that "mutants" will have at least one DNA sequence that is different from both their parents. Different things can cause these sorts of changes, including exposure to UV light, certain chemical agents, etc.

If Dj Short says mutations only occur at a rate 1 per 1000.....i must be hella unlucky to have had two of them.....and seen friends have some as well.
I have seen many slight mutations alot, most revert back to normal growth.....some continue w/the mutation, some die, and occasionally, one turns out worth the effort.

True mutations can't just spontaneously revert back to normal. What you've seen probably isn't true mutation, but either rare phenotypes (DJ short calls this "genetic segretation"), or polyploidy. Polyploidy, in particular, is pretty common in cannabis plants; most people who grow any number of plants will see it on a regular, if infrequent, basis (see below).

Aloha Jogrow.....would you happen to know the proceedure to download photo's from my phone to this forum? I wanted to post some pics of my Williams Wonder and see if they look similar to ones you did, plus some other grows i did.
Mahalo for any help

Again, just to get our terms right, when you transfer a picture from your phone or other camera to your computer or the internet, that's typically referred to as "uploading". Sure, I'll explain to you how to do it, but its beyond the scope of this post and thread, and you'll have to give me a little bit of time to get to it. I will post instructions into the Williams Wonder thread then get back to you after its done.

A mutation is basically an error in transcription (instead of A and G you get A and T or something).

The second part of this is right. A mutation is any change to DNA sequence. These can be caused by simple transcription errors, but other causes are also possible. A mutation can involve a change to only one DNA base pair (that's also called a "point mutation", like A to G), or multiple base pairs.

You can definitely induce mutations and some have speculated that DJ Short used cochline (sp?) to create blueberry, but I highly highly doubt it (and there's nothing resembling evidence either other than some random forum posts with no backing).

So colchicine, IIRC, is a chemical found naturally in crocus flowers. This particular agent doesn't cause mutations (ie DNA sequence changes), it acts as a microtubule inhibitor, messing up the chromosomal segregation that occurs during mitosis and causing polyploidy. Polyploidy refers to an increase in number of normal chromosomes.

Again, IIRC, the story with DJ short is that he believes that some of the Thai parent stock he used to create his Blueberry strain may have been created using colchicine or mutagens, explaining why that particular line shows a significant number of weird mutant-like phenos. On this topic, I've tracked down the relevant essay from him, and here is the "money" excerpt. Note that this is a bit technical, and if you don't understand genetics, it may be a bit hard to follow:

General Irregularities/Anomalies of Cannabis Relating to Transgressive Segregation

Some of the Blue Family lines of cannabis (True Blueberry, Grape Krush, etc.) are known to occasionally sport various anomalies and irregularities. The main anomaly reported from these lines is that of the "krinkle" leaf type. Also referred to as a form of variegation this irregularity usually involves a twisting or convolution along half of the leaf divided along the central leaf vein. This anomaly usually affects anywhere from 5% to 20% of a given sample depending on the strain (TB = 5% to 10%, GK = 10% to 20%). In and of itself, this trait does not affect yield or the overall health of the plant. It is merely a simple deformity unique to this line of cannabis.

It is important to know the differences between simple deformities and more complex mutations. Simple deformities and anomalies are semi-common phenomenon whereas genetic mutation is by far more rare and profound. Most of the irregular expressions witnessed in some of the Blue Family lines are mere deformities. Very few are true gross mutations and those are usually sterile or non-viable (usually < %1). [OK, so the number he cited here is less than 1%, though again, I seem to remember him saying about 1 in 1000 elsewhere].

I used to think that the deformities witnessed in certain lines of cannabis were strictly the result of a mutagenic regimen such as colchicine. [Again, strictly speaking, colchicine isn't really a "mutagen" but we still get the point]. Variegation in particular is a typical symptom of such a process. If such a process were used on the varieties of cannabis I have worked with, I assume that it was in the Thai lines as that is where most of these traits seem to originate. There is, however, another aspect to consider regarding these anomalies called transgressive segregation.

Transgressive segregation refers to the situation where the progeny from crosses of distinctly different P1's exhibit characteristics beyond what either parent exhibited. A good botanical example is that of the cabbage family from which broccoli, cauliflower and Brussel sprouts developed from the same meager beach cabbage. This is the level of the diversity witnessed in the f2's and beyond crosses of the plants that I have worked with.

 

[Jogro]

it just depends how hard core your definition of mutation is.

I never fully understood Dj Short's blueberry.......can't exactally remember but.......afghani x oregon purple thai of highland thai..........i mean which is it??????? Why doesn't he know??? Only things i can think are, he didn't label his plants.....or he bred with one, but another plant near it hermed and also pollenated his already pollenated plant, so as not to be sure of the parent.

Someone please explain this to me.......cause how can someone be called a top breeder if he doesn't even know the parental material?

Just because you don't know, doesn't mean he doesn't know. Again, here's how he bred the line in his own words:

DJ Short - The Origins of Blueberry

Choosing your parents

The place for breeding to begin is with choosing the parent plants, called the P1 generation. For best breeding results you use true-breeding stabilized strains as your P1's. Different breeders have different standards as to what qualifies as a P1. I have very high standards for my P1 generation. For me, the P1 must be either a fully acclimated, region-of-origin land-race variety, or no more than one generation removed, and crossed with itself or another highly similar, region-of-origin land-race variety.

I used three P1 strains to breed Blueberry, Flo and others. They were the Highland Thai (also called Juicy Fruit Thai, a first-generation Thai seed grown in the Pacific Northwest); a cross called Purple Thai which was a first generation land-race Chocolate Thai crossed once with a first generation land-race Highland Oaxaca Gold; and an Afghani Indica which came to me one generation removed from Afghanistan via the California/Southern Oregon growing community.

&#65532;
Juicy Fruit

The Highland Thai was a joy to grow and behold, despite its hermaphroditism. This plant grew fast, filling in any empty spaces with lush, green growth. It was a very slow finisher, 12 to 16 weeks and beyond in the bud period for most. It had the longest and skinniest leaves out of all the plants I have worked with. Thick side-branching is another characteristic of this variety.

The plant only periodically produced any kind of "tight" bud structure. Most of the buds were very loose, with some sporting long, slender shoots of widely-spaced single female flowers in a row (especially when grown hydroponically under halide lights.)

This bud structure is known as "spindly". Many of these spindles resemble threads protruding from a semi-formed bud. Each single thread averaged anywhere from five to ten inches long, some even longer, and consisted of a row of evenly-spaced female flowers and their corresponding bract leaves, anywhere from a quarter inch to one inch apart, alternating bract and flower in single file.

&#65532;
Thai

The entirety of the "thread" and bud structure was coated with sweet/fruity aromatic resin glands.

The overall plant color was dark, while the bud structures matured a lighter shade of green, sometimes green/yellow.

I was never able to get a Juicy Fruit Highland Thai to "over mature". I took one to almost twenty weeks into its flower cycle and she just kept pumping it out. Outdoors, one was taken in early-mid December from a greenhouse. The only difference was that the later harvest was a more stony, body high.

The finished product from the Highland Thai was an all-around champion herb. Though difficult to trim and cure, the outcome was fully worth the effort. It was a powerful, long-lasting and exquisitely flavoured herb with little or no ceiling. The high could last up to seven hours! The flavour, aroma and taste were a totally sweet tropical punch – tutti-fruity all the way.

The Purple Thai was the other sativa in my repertoire. This was a first generation cross between the Highland Oaxaca Gold and the Chocolate Thai. This cross grew medium/tall and was very symmetric in structure. The side branches were shorter and, if left alone (untopped) the main stalk (meristem) remained the dominant shoot.

&#65532;
Afghani

The entire plant of the Purple Thai was very dark-coloured and would express a deep royal purple colour at the slightest exposure to cold. It did not exhibit any of the spindly bud syndrome of the Juicy Fruit Thai, and the finished buds were a medium and compact sativa type. The finished product was equally as fruity and strong as the Juicy Fruit, also without ceiling.

For whatever aesthetic reason, I preferred the Purple Thai to the Juicy Fruit Highland Thai. I believe that the Purple Thai was emotionally kinder or gentler than the Juicy Fruit. At larger doses the Juicy Fruit could evoke quite a terror, especially when combined with psychedelics. Though no less potent, the Purple Thai seemed easier to handle, including when tripping. The Purple Thai was one of the first to show resin gland production in the early bud cycle, at roughly three to four weeks into the cycle. It also matured at 10 to 12 weeks indoor, and early to mid November outdoors.

The Afghani Indica plant is short with large, wide leaves, stout and thick-stemmed. It has early to very early maturation, producing large, dense buds that smell earthen to skunk, with a strong smoke that is generally sedative or "down" in effect. Though consistent in its growth and overall effect, its appeal is somewhat limited in my opinion. I believe more indicas should be made into hashish, which is where the finer qualities of the indica appear.

&#65532;
Blueberry x Afghani

The sinsemilla Afghani Indica first showed up on the market in 1979. They were huge, green, stinky, sticky, dense buds of potent, pungent herb that smelled like a skunk and produced a narcotic-knockout stone that was tremendously novel, when compared to all the sativas that had come before. This was right after sinsemilla herb hit the market with big appeal.

The triad of sinsemilla, indica, and the advent of high powered halide and HPS lights, all wreaked havoc on the breeding programs of most pot-entrepeneurs. Few people maintained their sativa lines, and the strains virtually disappeared from the commercial markets. The short, dense, early-maturing and body-powerful indica has dominated the scene since 1983 – a matter of disjointed economics.

Such were the three main P1's I used for my breeding lines.

&#65532;
Afghani male

The f1 cross

The f1 cross is the first cross between two distinctly different P1 parents. The "f" stands for filial (child). I cannot overstress the importance of the two P1 parents being as genetically different as is possible. It is this initial genetic diversity that leads to the most possibilities in succeeding lines.

If the P1's are sufficiently diverse, then the f1 will be a true hybrid, expressing a near total uniformity and great vigor. It is in the crosses beyond the initial f1 (especially the f1xf1=f2 cross) that specific traits are sought. There will be a tremendous amount of variance in the f2 crosses of f1's obtained from a female pure sativa and a male pure indica.

The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven fruitful.

&#65532;
Blue Moonshine

So the Thai female is pollinated with the Afghani male and an abundance of seed is produced. The seed is uniformly sized and shaped; small, ellipsoid and mottled with dark stripes upon a grayish brown shell. A single female is capable of producing thousands of seed, leaving plenty for experimentation. This is the f1 generation, which I called simply "The Cross".

The plants of The Cross grew uniform, medium-tall "spear" structures of many competing side-branches around one main (meristem) stalk. Large, long buds formed along the branches. There was a wide palate of colours, especially among the Purple Thai cross. The buds were lighter, almost yellow to the centres, wile the outer leaf, bract and calyx tips showed red, purple and blue hues. The maturation rates were uniform as well, with a wide window of harvest being between weeks eight to eleven in the bud cycle, indoors. The finished bud had a very strong "astringent" chemical/terpene aroma that bordered between pine, gin, licorice and paint. Only a very few of The Cross expressed hermaphroditism, about 1 out of every 25 females.

&#65532;
Afghani

The f2 cross

The f2 is the second filial generation, simply a cross between any two of the f1 stock. With my f2 crosses the outcome was extreme, with almost every characteristic of the cannabis plant being expressed in some of the plants. The diversity was spectacular, both in structure and aesthetics. From sativa to indica, short to tall, dark to light, early to late maturation, wide to narrow leaves, along with an extensive array of flavours, aromas, tastes and highs. The f2 seeds collected were equally diverse, ranging from large to small, plump to slender, striped to solid, round to oval.

A grand amount of time, energy and money was spent from this point to isolate and stabilize the desired traits. There is a tremendous amount of work between the f2's and the f4's and f5's. Trial and error is the rule; certain paths prove futile while others bear further examination. On average, there are about nine errors to each success. Coupled with the difficult clandestine aspects of the trade through the 80's and 90's, it was a difficult task to accomplish. Many sacrifices were endured by my family and friends.

It was however, a fun and worthwhile occupation to sample all the research material. It was hard work and dedication to record the findings and attempt to create useful categories and find patterns and traits to specific characteristics. Then there's the wait for the cured sample. If the sample passed "the test" then the plant was kept for further consideration. The most desirable samples were used for further breeding to f3, f4 and f5. The harvested plants, cut above the lowest few nodes, were placed under a vegetative light cycle to stimulate new growth for cloning.

&#65532;
Blueberry x NL#5

I like to do one backcross somewhere between the f3 and f5 generation. Exactly when, where and how that is done remains a trade secret for now. Another trade secret is the art of selecting the best males for breeding. These topics and others will be covered in future articles.

Have phun!


Select the best, reject all others

Mendelian procedures are fine for sweet peas, but when it comes to herb I much prefer Luther Burbank's philosophy: "Select the best and reject all others!" This simple phrase is worth much consideration. Mendel's work is useful, especially concerning P1 and f1 crosses. But beyond the f2 and f3 cross, Mendel's theories add copius complexity to the equation.


&#65532;
Afghani clones

Your friend the freezer

A benevolent tool in our trade is the refrigerator and freezer. The fridge is extremely useful in extending the longevity of seed and pollen. The trick to successful freezing is to freeze deep (-10 to -40°F/-20 to -35°C) and then keep the seed undisturbed. Hard frozen objects are very fragile. The slightest shock may shatter crucial, delicate cell structures within the seed. Double wrap the seed in paper; little manilla envelopes work great.

I like to do small amounts, in one-time-use packets, to keep waste to a minimum. Then place the wrap into a plastic freezer bag, then place the freezer bag into a plastic tub or tupperware container. Now the seed is ready for the deep-freeze. In the fridge, storing seed in airtight, brown glass jars with a little rice or other non-toxic desiccant seems to work best.

I have had pollen last for years in a deep freeze. It must be frozen immediately after fresh collection from the plant, in as low a humidity as possible (preferably 0%). I like to shake the productive male flowers over a flat and clean piece of glass. The pollen pile is sifted to rid the unwanted plant material from the pure powder.

It is also useful to cut pollen with flour to stretch the amount. A pollen-to-flour ratio of 1:10 or even 1:100 works best. The cut pollen may then be separated into small, one-time-use amounts, stored in a flap of paper and frozen the same way as the seed. The frozen pollen must be applied to the live female flower immediately after thawing to increase viability.


&#65532;
Blue Velvet

The sweet sativa room

I recommend the creation of a special "sativa room" for indoor breeding of such strains. This room needs to consider and satisfy the unique needs of the sativa variety. The goal is to replicate the equatorial conditions of the world’s various "sweet spots". Some of these conditions include: a different light cycle than the standard 18/6 vegetative 12/12 bud cycles, a higher angle of light (using a straight track shuttle instead of a circular one), humidity control set on low for the highland and high for the lowland, and variations in soil composition and depth.

Light cycle is one of the key considerations for those wishing to breed truly fine quality cannabis indoors under lights. The 18/6 veggie and 12/12 bud cycles are perhaps the main influence towards the indica dominant strains and generic blandness of the indoor commercial product. A true equatorial sativa will require closer to a 13/11 vegetative and a long (four to six month) 11/13 flower cycle. Different variations may be tried, such as 15/9 veggie and 10/14 flowering cycle. Be prepared for much fine tuning.

Equatorial strains also experience a higher arch of sunlight than those grown beyond 38° north or south – with a sunrise almost due east and sunset nearly due west. Therefore the sativa room will edintense overhead lighting with a straight track mover. Keeping the plant in a stationary position, especially through the bud cycle, may positively influence the outcome of the finished product.

As jungle (lowland) herb requires only a thin layer of nutrient soil, perhaps a four-to-eight inch layer of soil over clay or concrete (with some form of drain system) would encourage lateral root growth, stationary plants, and a more lowland sativa-friendly environment.

If successful, the sativa-friendly room can be used to acclimate an indoor sativa variety, which expands the possibilities of your breeding operation.

 

[kona gold]

Just because you don't know, doesn't mean he doesn't know. Again, here's how he bred the line in his own words:

DJ Short - The Origins of Blueberry

Choosing your parents

The place for breeding to begin is with choosing the parent plants, called the P1 generation. For best breeding results you use true-breeding stabilized strains as your P1's. Different breeders have different standards as to what qualifies as a P1. I have very high standards for my P1 generation. For me, the P1 must be either a fully acclimated, region-of-origin land-race variety, or no more than one generation removed, and crossed with itself or another highly similar, region-of-origin land-race variety.

I used three P1 strains to breed Blueberry, Flo and others. They were the Highland Thai (also called Juicy Fruit Thai, a first-generation Thai seed grown in the Pacific Northwest); a cross called Purple Thai which was a first generation land-race Chocolate Thai crossed once with a first generation land-race Highland Oaxaca Gold; and an Afghani Indica which came to me one generation removed from Afghanistan via the California/Southern Oregon growing community.

&#65532;
Juicy Fruit

The Highland Thai was a joy to grow and behold, despite its hermaphroditism. This plant grew fast, filling in any empty spaces with lush, green growth. It was a very slow finisher, 12 to 16 weeks and beyond in the bud period for most. It had the longest and skinniest leaves out of all the plants I have worked with. Thick side-branching is another characteristic of this variety.

The plant only periodically produced any kind of "tight" bud structure. Most of the buds were very loose, with some sporting long, slender shoots of widely-spaced single female flowers in a row (especially when grown hydroponically under halide lights.)

This bud structure is known as "spindly". Many of these spindles resemble threads protruding from a semi-formed bud. Each single thread averaged anywhere from five to ten inches long, some even longer, and consisted of a row of evenly-spaced female flowers and their corresponding bract leaves, anywhere from a quarter inch to one inch apart, alternating bract and flower in single file.

&#65532;
Thai

The entirety of the "thread" and bud structure was coated with sweet/fruity aromatic resin glands.

The overall plant color was dark, while the bud structures matured a lighter shade of green, sometimes green/yellow.

I was never able to get a Juicy Fruit Highland Thai to "over mature". I took one to almost twenty weeks into its flower cycle and she just kept pumping it out. Outdoors, one was taken in early-mid December from a greenhouse. The only difference was that the later harvest was a more stony, body high.

The finished product from the Highland Thai was an all-around champion herb. Though difficult to trim and cure, the outcome was fully worth the effort. It was a powerful, long-lasting and exquisitely flavoured herb with little or no ceiling. The high could last up to seven hours! The flavour, aroma and taste were a totally sweet tropical punch – tutti-fruity all the way.

The Purple Thai was the other sativa in my repertoire. This was a first generation cross between the Highland Oaxaca Gold and the Chocolate Thai. This cross grew medium/tall and was very symmetric in structure. The side branches were shorter and, if left alone (untopped) the main stalk (meristem) remained the dominant shoot.

&#65532;
Afghani

The entire plant of the Purple Thai was very dark-coloured and would express a deep royal purple colour at the slightest exposure to cold. It did not exhibit any of the spindly bud syndrome of the Juicy Fruit Thai, and the finished buds were a medium and compact sativa type. The finished product was equally as fruity and strong as the Juicy Fruit, also without ceiling.

For whatever aesthetic reason, I preferred the Purple Thai to the Juicy Fruit Highland Thai. I believe that the Purple Thai was emotionally kinder or gentler than the Juicy Fruit. At larger doses the Juicy Fruit could evoke quite a terror, especially when combined with psychedelics. Though no less potent, the Purple Thai seemed easier to handle, including when tripping. The Purple Thai was one of the first to show resin gland production in the early bud cycle, at roughly three to four weeks into the cycle. It also matured at 10 to 12 weeks indoor, and early to mid November outdoors.

The Afghani Indica plant is short with large, wide leaves, stout and thick-stemmed. It has early to very early maturation, producing large, dense buds that smell earthen to skunk, with a strong smoke that is generally sedative or "down" in effect. Though consistent in its growth and overall effect, its appeal is somewhat limited in my opinion. I believe more indicas should be made into hashish, which is where the finer qualities of the indica appear.

&#65532;
Blueberry x Afghani

The sinsemilla Afghani Indica first showed up on the market in 1979. They were huge, green, stinky, sticky, dense buds of potent, pungent herb that smelled like a skunk and produced a narcotic-knockout stone that was tremendously novel, when compared to all the sativas that had come before. This was right after sinsemilla herb hit the market with big appeal.

The triad of sinsemilla, indica, and the advent of high powered halide and HPS lights, all wreaked havoc on the breeding programs of most pot-entrepeneurs. Few people maintained their sativa lines, and the strains virtually disappeared from the commercial markets. The short, dense, early-maturing and body-powerful indica has dominated the scene since 1983 – a matter of disjointed economics.

Such were the three main P1's I used for my breeding lines.

&#65532;
Afghani male

The f1 cross

The f1 cross is the first cross between two distinctly different P1 parents. The "f" stands for filial (child). I cannot overstress the importance of the two P1 parents being as genetically different as is possible. It is this initial genetic diversity that leads to the most possibilities in succeeding lines.

If the P1's are sufficiently diverse, then the f1 will be a true hybrid, expressing a near total uniformity and great vigor. It is in the crosses beyond the initial f1 (especially the f1xf1=f2 cross) that specific traits are sought. There will be a tremendous amount of variance in the f2 crosses of f1's obtained from a female pure sativa and a male pure indica.

The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven fruitful.

&#65532;
Blue Moonshine

So the Thai female is pollinated with the Afghani male and an abundance of seed is produced. The seed is uniformly sized and shaped; small, ellipsoid and mottled with dark stripes upon a grayish brown shell. A single female is capable of producing thousands of seed, leaving plenty for experimentation. This is the f1 generation, which I called simply "The Cross".

The plants of The Cross grew uniform, medium-tall "spear" structures of many competing side-branches around one main (meristem) stalk. Large, long buds formed along the branches. There was a wide palate of colours, especially among the Purple Tha



Thanks again Jogrow.
I have read this info many times, many years ago. His "expertise" is what stoked me in the first place to by the "original" blueberry. I figured with his extensive knowledge and hard core selection process that it was going to be an amazing strain!!
I was not as impressed when i grew it however........i had many phenos from my seed pack. Short over bushy pheno, chistmas tree shaped one, indica looking one, and some others. I had one that was soooooo friggin beautiful! All the colors of the rainbow, buds were dense w/mega resin, and smelled like blueberry yogurt. Cured for over three to four weeks in a perfect drying enviroment before i trimmed them. No flavor ay all.....and you couldn't get high!!!!! Couple of the other phenos were very good.....knda hasy with some blue flavor and pretty potent, but no blueberry flavors, and nothing that fit his description!
So i question his selecting. I know he talks a great talk......but the walk didn't walk the walk! Why sooooooooo much variation if he went to f'5?
And i still don't see about either a highland thai(juicy fruit) OR purple thai? Did he use both as he kinda hints to.....or is it one or the other?
I don't really question what he knows......but more of how he applies what he knows to what he produces.

 

[Jogro]

Aloha Jogrow.....would yyou happen to know the proceedure to download photo's from my phone to this forum? I wanted to post some pics of my Williams Wonder and see if they look similar to ones you did, plus some other grows i did.
Mahalo for any help

Posted detailed directions on how to get photos from your phone to computer, then computer to RIU forum at the end of the Williams Wonder grow report.

Link to said report is in my signature, below.

 

[Jogro]

Thanks again Jogrow.
I have read this info many times, many years ago. His "expertise" is what stoked me in the first place to by the "original" blueberry. I figured with his extensive knowledge and hard core selection process that it was going to be an amazing strain!!

Well, when something is billed as "the original whatever", you should probably assume it isn't. If it were the original, it would just be "the whatever" not "the original whatever".

With respect to Blueberry, my understanding is that this one has been bred and rebred several times by DJ Short, to the point where now there are at least 3-4 different commercially available lines that he bred that are called "blueberry". I think this is because he worked on this project at different times with different groups, and didn't retain access to all the original selections, later having to rebreed in part. At one point DJS was working for Dutch Passion, and their version is legitimately descended from one of his lines, but that was a long time ago. There is/was a Sagarmantha version, and he himself offers two versions right now: "Blueberry" and "True Blueberry". (No "original blueberry", so far as I can tell).

What is the difference between these two things?

DJ Short: Difference in TB vs. BB

The TB is more akin (literally closer related to) my past European offerings but from a much larger selection pool that I had more input toward. It (TB) tends to be larger (taller) and a bit more productive than the BB. The BB line that I have offered for the past 7-8 years is from different f3 stock than the TB (yet still related as all of my stock is from similar ancestry). I call her (the BB) a “stretch-indica” in that she does like to stretch her nodes, but her buds are very compact with larger calyx structure (“golf-ball buds”); whereas the TB buds are generally composed of smaller calyx (more slender, “pointy”) yet still with a very dense bud structure (“spade-shaped” with some foxtail stretch) on an indica-looking plant.

The BB palate is a more “syrupy sweet”, fruity smell (more like candy-sweet) while the TB has a higher-nasal palate with astringent/anise undertones (more of a sinus tickle w/ the bud and smoke flavor). I find the TB to be more “heady”, almost racy at first, whereas the BB tends to be more body/narcotic in its initial rush and stone duration. Mind you, there is a “range” to both and the above descriptions are in terms of probability and not exclusive to either strain. That is, there is a higher probability of finding a plant w/ small calyx, tight buds with astringent/anise/berry flavor and a more “up-head” in the TB line, and a higher probability of finding a plant with the “stretch-indica” pheno with dense, golf-ball buds and a more candy/berry flavor/palate and a more narcotic (though not really couch-lock) body in the BB line. Both are equally prone to color changes, especially in colder temps, and I find both to be equally potent.

Sannie used to offer an indica blueberry and a sativa blueberry, and I bet these parallel what's written above a bit. You can also read quite a bit more in detail about what DJ Short allegedly did and with what in this article: http://www.seedsman.com/en/origins-of-blueberry/

I was not as impressed when i grew it however........i had many phenos from my seed pack. Short over bushy pheno, chistmas tree shaped one, indica looking one, and some others. I had one that was soooooo friggin beautiful! All the colors of the rainbow, buds were dense w/mega resin, and smelled like blueberry yogurt. Cured for over three to four weeks in a perfect drying enviroment before i trimmed them. No flavor ay all.....and you couldn't get high!!!!! Couple of the other phenos were very good.....knda hasy with some blue flavor and pretty potent, but no blueberry flavors, and nothing that fit his description! So i question his selecting. I know he talks a great talk......but the walk didn't walk the walk! Why sooooooooo much variation if he went to f'5?

Well, you'd think by this point his signature line would be offered as a uniform stable plant in bean form, but its not the case. If you read what he wrote above, he says that these are F3s (not F5s) and are expected to offer a range of phenos, both in terms of plant pheno and effect. Its also possible (in fact likely) that what's going out under his name isn't actually being bred hands-on by him, but contracted out to a third party.

FWIW, I've heard of others being quite a bit disappointed with this; you're not the only one. Also, by most accounts, this one is highly picky when grown, and its easy to ruin it with too much or too few nutes.

And i still don't see about either a highland thai(juicy fruit) OR purple thai? Did he use both as he kinda hints to.....or is it one or the other? I don't really question what he knows......but more of how he applies what he knows to what he produces.

I don't know what he actually did, only what he said he did. I can tell you just from listening to him speak that the guy is a fundamentally "serious" breeder in a way that most of current crop of pollen chuckers are not. He's not full of hot air, he knows what he's talking about.

Anyway, if I read this correctly, per the above, blueberry was an inbred selection from the offspring of (Highland Thai x Purple Thai) x (Afghan indica x Purple Thai), but even if that's wrong, blueberry is supposed to contain some genetics from each of those three parents.