Switching to Organics, How will I do?

[MayoMaster]

Hello everyone!

I have made a couple posts before on figuring out a soil mix and tea recipes and thank you to those that have helped me. I am currently an Advanced Nutrients user and they work great, but I know Mother Earth does not make AN's bottles full, so I wish to make a change.

I have been doing my research, and have put in at least 50+ hours of reading in the past month alone.

So far, this is what I have come up with that is Cost effective, organic, and should be able to compete with AN's nutrients.

SOIL MIX:
1 Bail Pro-Mix HP
1 Bag Espoma Organic Perlite
1 Bag of Wiggle Worm EWC
1 Bag Ancient Forest Soil Amendmant
3 Cups of 6-5-3 Mix
1.5 Cups Azomite
2 Cups Kelp Meal
2 Cups Alfalfa Meal
2 Tablespoons BioAg TM-7

*6-5-3 Mix*
6 Cups calcium carbonate 90% or better, 5 cups soft rock phosphate, and 3 cups gypsum

Soil cooks for 4 weeks minimum

TEA RECIPES: (Brewed with 4 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket using tap water that sat out overnight. I have good water so it should be fine as the PPM usually is 70-90 after sitting)

ACT for veg
1 Cup Ancient Forest Soil Amendment
1 Cup Wiggleworm EWC
4 Tablespoons Organic unsulphured Molasses
Brew for 24-48 hours depending on temperature

ACT for Flower
Mix 2 Tablespoons of corn meal with 2 Cups Ancient Forest 3 days before brewing teaa and place in dark warm area,
Then add
2 Tablespoons molasses
Brew for 24-48 hours depending on temperature

Nutrient TEA
1 Cup alfalfa meal
½ cup kelp meal
Brew for 24-36 hours depending on temperature

Schedule: (7 week veg, 9 week flower)
Week 1 of veg, use VEG ACT on transplant.
Week 2 of veg, use nutrient tea
Week 3 of veg, use nutrient tea
Week 4 of veg, use VEG ACT
Week 5 of veg, use nutrient tea
Week 6 of veg, use nutrient tea
Week 7 of veg, use nutrient tea
Week 1 of flower, use FLOWER ACT
Week 2 of flower, use nutrient tea
Week 3 of flower, use nutrient tea
Week 4 of flower, use nutrient tea
Week 5 of flower, use FLOWER ACT
Week 6 of flower, use nutrient tea
Week 7 of flower, use nutrient tea
Week 8 of flower, use nutrient tea at half normal strength
Week 9 of flower, use nutrient tea at half normal strength

From this I have multiple questions:

Will the soil mix be too hot for direct planting of clones?
Will this schedule and soil mix be enough to get the plant everything it wants?
Should I change my nutrient tea during the course of the plants life?

Any and all feedback is MUCH appreciated!

 

[SpicySativa]

I think your plan will quite likely work, but you are making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be.

START by building a simple, complete soil. It's hard for me to interpret Your recipe when it's written as a "bail" of this, "bag" of that, etc. It'll be much easier to interpret if you give us your "base mix" proportions (e.g. 2 parts ProMix/1 part perlite/1 part worm castings), and then give your amendments as a proportion of your base mix (e.g. 1 Cup Azomite per cubic foot of base mix).

THEN... Put some plants in your soil and see how they respond BEFORE you start hitting them with all manor of teas and other concoctions. Growing organically is about reading your plants and giving them what they need, not about creating and following a strict schedule.

These days I only give my plants 1 or 2 AACTs, usually just one alfalfa tea a week before flipping to bloom, and maybe one or two VERY dilute feedins with fish hydrolysate during bloom if I feel the need.

In other words, start by learning how your plants do with your soil alone, then supplement as needed with AACTs, alfalfa tea, and maybe some fish hydrolysate.

Good luck!

 

[SpicySativa]

I will say that I personally think giving an alfalfa tea every week is EXCESSIVE, especially in a heavily amended soil. Alfalfa tea is very potent. You'll notice the effects within a matter of hours.

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

Cut you kelp meal back by half in the Alfalfa tea. You can change you nutrient tea to handle what ever may come up.

 

[st0wandgrow]

Mayo, some good advice above from Spicy and Gandalf.

I have been giving my plants 3 ACT's, and 3-4 Nutrient teas (Alfalfa/kelp). These are all in veg and the first few weeks of flower. I top dress a 1/4 cup of an all purpose organic fertilizer like Espoma Garden Tone (I use DTE Vegan Mix) at the end of week 3 and cover that in EWC (I want to incorporate dried comfrey leaves in their too). That's it.

The only things I add after that is aloe once a week, and some fulvic acid and silica once or twice beyond week 3.

What I am noticing is that the first run through with my soil I had to supplement a bit more with teas. My second run through with the same soil needed much less tinkering. Just starting to use a batch for the third time now, and I am anticipating smooth sailing. I've incorporated charged bio-char too so my need for teas is even less tbh. I'm pretty certain that I could add nothing but water and I would be fine. I think the soil provides a very good base for most plants to thrive in once it's fully bio-available (2'nd run and beyond). You can supplement with teas based upon the strain that you're working with, but for the most part you'll see that you really don't need to do much.

I think your soil mix will be fine. Play with the teas a bit and see what works best for you. Just remember to start off light, and work up from there. Stuff like alfalfa, TM-7, neem seed meal, etc is pretty potent stuff and can jack your plants up a bit if you're not careful.

 

[MayoMaster]

I think your plan will quite likely work, but you are making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be.

START by building a simple, complete soil. It's hard for me to interpret Your recipe when it's written as a "bail" of this, "bag" of that, etc. It'll be much easier to interpret if you give us your "base mix" proportions (e.g. 2 parts ProMix/1 part perlite/1 part worm castings), and then give your amendments as a proportion of your base mix (e.g. 1 Cup Azomite per cubic foot of base mix).

THEN... Put some plants in your soil and see how they respond BEFORE you start hitting them with all manor of teas and other concoctions. Growing organically is about reading your plants and giving them what they need, not about creating and following a strict schedule.

These days I only give my plants 1 or 2 AACTs, usually just one alfalfa tea a week before flipping to bloom, and maybe one or two VERY dilute feedins with fish hydrolysate during bloom if I feel the need.

In other words, start by learning how your plants do with your soil alone, then supplement as needed with AACTs, alfalfa tea, and maybe some fish hydrolysate.

Good luck!

3.8 cu = PROMIX
1.0 cu = espoma perlite
.75 cu = wiggle worm ewc
.5 cu = Ancient forest soil amendment

So…

Total CU without powders and meals = 6.05 cu
PROMIX = 3.8 / 6.05 = 62.81%
Perlite = 1.0 / 6.05 = 16.53%
EWC = .75 / 6.05 = 12.40%
Ancient Forest = .5 / 6.05 = 8.26%

Total = 100%

6-5-3 mix = 3 cups = .025 cu
Azomite = 1.5 cups = .0125 cu
Kelp meal = 2 cups = .0167 cu
Alfalfa Meal = 2 cups = .0167 cu
TM-7(humic and fulvic acids) = 2 Tablespoons = .001 cu

So…

Total Cu with powders and meals and soil amendmants etc. = 6.1219 cu
PROMIX = 3.8 / 6.1219 = 62.07%
Perlite = 1.0 / 6.1219 = 16.34%
EWC = .75 / 6.1219 = 12.25%
Ancient Forest = .5 / 6.1219 = 8.18%
6-5-3 mix = .025 / 6.1219 = 0.41%
Azomite = .0125 / 6.1219 = 0.20%
Kelp meal = .0167 / 6.1219 = 0.27%
Alfalfa Meal = .0167 / 6.1219 = 0.27%
TM-7 = .001 / 6.1219 = 0.01%

Total = 100%

So simplify and round these numbers…

Base Mix = 6 cu = 6 Parts
3 ¾ Parts Promix
1 Part Perlite
¾ Part EWC
½ Part Humus soil amendment

Now amendments per 1 cu of basemix…

½ cup 6-5-3 mineral mix per cu
¼ cup Azomite per cu
1/3 cup kelp meal per cu
1/3 cup alfalfa meal per cu
1 Teaspoon TM-7(humic and fulvic acids) per cu

From what I have learned, I fully want to give the simple AACTs to my plants in this soil regardless of all else. I want a fully Functional microbial army ready to enter battle in the battlefield, my soil. I will use an AACT (just ewc, ancient forest, and molasses) to cook my soil. I know this will be good. As far as nutrient teas, I guess I can try just letting the soil do the work. But I did design this soil to be minimally hot so that I can put clones right in it, and supplement with teas. It doesnt have a ton of nutrients in it, but a pretty goddamn good amount. What I also know about Kelp and Alfalfa meal is that they are soil re-energizers. I have been reading up on trying to achieve higher brix level plants, (Brix is a measure of if your plant had what it needed to reach its genetic potential basically), and you need to keep energy up in the soil for the plants.

But I still would like to know if this will burn clones planted straight into it, this is one of my only worries. Otherwise thank you very much for the feedback and let me know what you think!

 

[st0wandgrow]

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is container size. The larger the container, the more bio-available nutrients that will be stored in your medium providing that your cec is adequite. I use a 5 gallon container which is on the smaller end of things, so I probably supplement with teas more than others do that are using larger containers.

What size bucket are you using? Be sure to take that in to consideration.

 

[MayoMaster]

Cut you kelp meal back by half in the Alfalfa tea. You can change you nutrient tea to handle what ever may come up.

So you think 1 Cup alfalfa meal and 1/4 cup kelp meal per week in a tea is good enough to keep the energy in my soil? Also, do you think this soil mix will burn my plants? And finally, what sort of nutrient teas do you recommend for the various stages of a plants life, or will the alfalfa and kelp meal tea be plenty for big nice tasty buds?

 

[MayoMaster]

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is container size. The larger the container, the more bio-available nutrients that will be stored in your medium providing that your cec is adequite. I use a 5 gallon container which is on the smaller end of things, so I probably supplement with teas more than others do that are using larger containers.

What size bucket are you using? Be sure to take that in to consideration.

Ah yea sorry about that. I will be Using 7 gallon buckets. I will start them in buckets that will be 1-3 gallons, depending on whats best, vegging in those for roughly 4 or 5 weeks, then transplanting to 7 gallon cointainers for the remainder of their lives, which will be 2 more weeks veg, and 9 weeks of flower.

 

[MayoMaster]

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is container size. The larger the container, the more bio-available nutrients that will be stored in your medium providing that your cec is adequite. I use a 5 gallon container which is on the smaller end of things, so I probably supplement with teas more than others do that are using larger containers.

What size bucket are you using? Be sure to take that in to consideration.

Also, what is CEC and do you think mine is adequate with my provided soil mix?

 

[st0wandgrow]

You're using roughly 20% ewc/compost. That's on the low end of the scale, imo. A good source of compost is the back bone of your soil. Considering this, don't be afraid to top-dress some ewc/vermicompost once or twice along the way. ACT's can help in this regard too. When you re-amend after using this soil, I would add a little more ewc/compost in to the mix.

 

[st0wandgrow]

Also, what is CEC and do you think mine is adequate with my provided soil mix?

CEC= Cation Exchange Capacity. In laymans terms, this is your soils ability to hold nutrients. A soil that has a high humus and/or clay ratio usually has a high CEC (providing your ph is not out of whack). This is part of the reason why a 25%-33% compost ratio is suggested for your medium.

 

[st0wandgrow]

Mayo, I don't think you'll burn a clone in this mix. You can pick up a cheap plant at Home Depot and stick it in to a small container of your mix a week or so before putting your marijuana plants in there to ease your mind. I did this with the first batch I mixed up with no problems. The peace of mind is worth the $5 you'll spend on Petunias.

 

[MayoMaster]

Mayo, some good advice above from Spicy and Gandalf.

I have been giving my plants 3 ACT's, and 3-4 Nutrient teas (Alfalfa/kelp). These are all in veg and the first few weeks of flower. I top dress a 1/4 cup of an all purpose organic fertilizer like Espoma Garden Tone (I use DTE Vegan Mix) at the end of week 3 and cover that in EWC (I want to incorporate dried comfrey leaves in their too). That's it.

The only things I add after that is aloe once a week, and some fulvic acid and silica once or twice beyond week 3.

What I am noticing is that the first run through with my soil I had to supplement a bit more with teas. My second run through with the same soil needed much less tinkering. Just starting to use a batch for the third time now, and I am anticipating smooth sailing. I've incorporated charged bio-char too so my need for teas is even less tbh. I'm pretty certain that I could add nothing but water and I would be fine. I think the soil provides a very good base for most plants to thrive in once it's fully bio-available (2'nd run and beyond). You can supplement with teas based upon the strain that you're working with, but for the most part you'll see that you really don't need to do much.

I think your soil mix will be fine. Play with the teas a bit and see what works best for you. Just remember to start off light, and work up from there. Stuff like alfalfa, TM-7, neem seed meal, etc is pretty potent stuff and can jack your plants up a bit if you're not careful.

Ahh sorry didnt read this before my other posts. Are you saying that you made your soil, used it, then after that used the same batch that had been cooking again, then a 3rd time and it only got better? Did you have to keep wetting it or did you let it dry out?

I will definitely start light on the teas, didnt think alfalfa meal was that strong, but I have never used it so I only had my speculations!

 

[MayoMaster]

You're using roughly 20% ewc/compost. That's on the low end of the scale, imo. A good source of compost is the back bone of your soil. Considering this, don't be afraid to top-dress some ewc/vermicompost once or twice along the way. ACT's can help in this regard too. When you re-amend after using this soil, I would add a little more ewc/compost in to the mix.

So would doubling up, and adding two bags of EWC will work? I will re-do percents and cu later today. I do enjoy the information you guys are giving me, you are building this soil with each comment. I am close to being able to start this project, couple more weeks. Also on the soil re-amend, this is one thing i'd really love to do, but I am nervous. What are the draw backs of re-amending. ANd can you forever re-amend, or is there a generation which it will start to show build ups of certain things? ALSO! by the time I would hit 2nd or 3rd generation of this soil, I will have my own vermicomposting bin. Will I be able to feed this 3rd generation soil to the worms, and have it come out as gold soil?

 

[MayoMaster]

Mayo, I don't think you'll burn a clone in this mix. You can pick up a cheap plant at Home Depot and stick it in to a small container of your mix a week or so before putting your marijuana plants in there to ease your mind. I did this with the first batch I mixed up with no problems. The peace of mind is worth the $5 you'll spend on Petunias.

hahahahhahaah a much simpler solution than I was planning... hahahhaa thanks for this

 

[st0wandgrow]

Yes, re-use the soil. It gets better with time. I run a plant all the way through flower, and then I dump this soil back out on to a tarp and add 1/2 of the dry amendments that I added the first time. The exception to this is the liming agents and minerals. No need to add more as they take quite a while to become bio-available. Upwards of a year for some ingredients. I add a little more compost to this as well, then I put it back in my storage container for a few weeks and use it again. You can leave all of the roots and everything in there from the last plant. Just pull the main root-ball out, and shake the soil off of it.

A lot of people will actually just chop the finished plant and leave everything in the container. They plant a cover crop like clover in the container and let the microbes break down the root ball for a month or so, and then just put a new cut right back in there.

DO NOT throw this soil away. It gets better as it ages. There are guys using the same soil for a dozen or so runs.

 

[MayoMaster]

Yes, re-use the soil. It gets better with time. I run a plant all the way through flower, and then I dump this soil back out on to a tarp and add 1/2 of the dry amendments that I added the first time. The exception to this is the liming agents and minerals. No need to add more as they take quite a while to become bio-available. Upwards of a year for some ingredients. I add a little more compost to this as well, then I put it back in my storage container for a few weeks and use it again. You can leave all of the roots and everything in there from the last plant. Just pull the main root-ball out, and shake the soil off of it.

A lot of people will actually just chop the finished plant and leave everything in the container. They plant a cover crop like clover in the container and let the microbes break down the root ball for a month or so, and then just put a new cut right back in there.

DO NOT throw this soil away. It gets better as it ages. There are guys using the same soil for a dozen or so runs.

Well this sounds awesome. I will definitely give this a go. So you'd say re-amend at half strength with dry things, and half the ewc and whatnot, but as for the 6-5-3 mix, I should wait til lets say the... 3rd generation?

 

[May11th]

I was just in your shoes, your very intelligent, but you need to kiss bud, that soil could feed your vegging plants for 2 months and run straight water or with molasses and be completely fine, in flowering id assume your transplant in your final container and have a flowering super soil ready, transplant, just water for roughly 4 weeks or until you see a defect, then make your tea to adjust, thats pretty much what I been doing and my plants have been crazy happy, if you want to not have headaches and burnt leaves then kiss man, what is your goal by going this route? I can say that youll be happy you did.

 

[MayoMaster]

I was just in your shoes, your very intelligent, but you need to kiss bud, that soil could feed your vegging plants for 2 months and run straight water or with molasses and be completely fine, in flowering id assume your transplant in your final container and have a flowering super soil ready, transplant, just water for roughly 4 weeks or until you see a defect, then make your tea to adjust, thats pretty much what I been doing and my plants have been crazy happy, if you want to not have headaches and burnt leaves then kiss man, what is your goal by going this route? I can say that youll be happy you did.

The reason I am going this route is because I never have truly been a fan of, "Add this chemical for this many weeks, then add this, then add this. What are in these? Umm.. Veg nutes... duh! oh yea and ummm Bloom nutes!" Also, I have NEVER, not once, smoked organically grown bud, although I hear only the best.
My main goals are this: Make bud in a cost effective manner, where I can re-use the majority of materials involved, have it be the best tasting, best smelling bud I have ever seen, make sure the plants have all required elements and minerals so they can get closer to their genetic potential, and have this all be accomplished by my ability to research thoroughly and create a fine soil mix that I can call mine, while also brewing teas that I can call mine. Now, a lot of you have helped me shape my soil and tea recipe, and I am very thankful for that. I just feel this will making the growing experience that much more personal. I want the select few that get to smoke my buds to go, "Holy fuck." I just feel like organics is the ultimate way to grow, and everything else is just trying to imitate organics in all the wrong ways. Oh yea, and my "mentor" is a chemical ferts, hydro only kind of guy. He is already blown away with what I have done to my first round of plants. Now I want to show him that organic soil is the true way to grow. Maybe he will poop his pants once I try this.

So you really think I could get away with water and molasses only with this soil mix? If that's true, fuck yes. I am just leery about the amount of things available. I want my soil to be a water only from start to finish, but also be good enough to fill the entire pot with this soil mix without burning clones(No 50% of pot with my soil mix, the rest blah blah blah). I will add the AACT's of compost / molasses occasionally(2-4 times total), but now you guys have me thinking my nutrient teas may be overkill.

Do you think a nutrient tea of 1/2 Cup alfalfa, and 1/4 cup kelp in a 5 gallon bucket, diluted to 1:4, every other week, will be too much? Or should I use this tea only during flowering or what? I want to make sure I have nice chunky dense buds. I know you guys to say try water only, and I will do this. But my soil will be mineralized and I need to keep the soil energy up, and that's what I will use the alfalfa/kelp meal for.

I also adjusted my soil mix based on what Stowandgrow said about the EWC portion in my mix. The new soil mix will be:
Total CU without powders and meals = 6.8 cu
PROMIX = 3.8 / 6.8 = 55.88%
Perlite = 1.0 / 6.8 = 14.71%
EWC = 1.5 / 6.8 = 22.06%
Ancient Forest = .5 / 6.8 = 7.35%

Soil Amendments Per 1 CU of base mix
½ cup 6-5-3 mineral mix per cu (Calcium Carbonate-Soft Rock Phosphate-Gypsum)
¼ cup Azomite per cu
1/3 cup kelp meal per cu
½ cup alfalfa meal per cu
1 Teaspoon BioAG TM-7(humic and fulvic acids) per cu