Guns don't kill people, gun owners kill people.

[Doer]

A recent study by Boston University published in the America Journal of Public Health correlates increased gun ownership with increased homicide.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?prevSearch=gun+ownership&searchHistoryKey=

Abstract

Did you read it?

Limitations
We used a proxy measure of firearm ownership that did not perfectly correlate with

survey-derived measures and was therefore not ideal. We have 2 reasons for believing that

the observed relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates was not an artifact of

the use of this proxy measure.

This introduced the possibility that anunknown confounder could explain the ob-
served relationship.

Because of the number of predictor variables
we incorporated in our analysis, this seems

unlikely.

Nevertheless, the possibilityremains that an omitted variable confounded
the observed relationship.

Our study substantially advances previous
work (the forgone conclusions says Doer, the previously proved lies of doctored stats)

Although we could notdetermine causation, we found that states
with higher levels of gun ownership had
disproportionately large numbers of deaths
from firearm-related homicides.



Ah I found another Lamda. Behold the GINI factor. And I am not at all sure how they factor in justified homicide, or how they factor out suicide.

Gini coefficient 1.046 (1.003, 1.092) .037 For each 0.01 increase in Gini coefficient, firearm homicide rate increased by 4.6%


Please do not propose bad science that you have not read thoroughly, and call it facts.




See? To me this is the streach of bad science. It is the pick and choose of your proxy, assign that Lambda and math around it.

Then you state you still "believe" your foregone conclusion.

 

[Beefbisquit]

I would like to see stats on the percentage of weapons used in crimes that were, at one point, legally obtained. That's to say, someone went to a store, bought the gun legally and it was stolen or lost, and ended up being used in a crime.

I'd like to see the same stats for a Country with tighter storage and training laws.

I'm aware that these stats are probably not available.

 

[abandonconflict]

not read thoroughly, and call it facts.

Then you state you still "believe" your foregone conclusion.

Your argument is invalid, since these two statements (premises) are false.

 

[abandonconflict]

The fact, which the study confirms and which is obvious, is that more guns = more shootings. That is all the study confirms, let's not make any assumptions until the statistics which Beefbiscuit seeks are at hand. Let's not accuse Abandonconflict of stating beliefs there Doer. Let's discern fact from opinion.

You are pushing an agenda, and you are accusing me of pushing an opposite agenda. I am saying both agendas are wrong. You're unable to face facts. I'm not pushing any beliefs.

 

[burgertime2010]

The fact, which the study confirms and which is obvious, is that more guns = more shootings. That is all the study confirms, let's not make any assumptions until the statistics which Beefbiscuit seeks are at hand. Let's not accuse Abandonconflict of stating beliefs there Doer. Let's discern fact from opinion.

You are pushing an agenda, and you are accusing me of pushing an opposite agenda. I am saying both agendas are wrong. You're unable to face facts. I'm not pushing any beliefs.

If you make a good point of show him to be wrong he either ignores it, answers the most trivial aspect of it, or calls you a sophist. FYI.

 

[Doer]

It would seem difficult.

But with the wide misuse of false statistical mathematics and the co-opting of Science with money this is exactly like the AGW debate.

So, let us discuss this.

If you were to see these data in a very clear fashion:

1 - would the results be actionable?
2 - what is a clear fashion? is that only when it supports a political contention?

Say if we found that personal gun owners by and large never sell, and those guns are hardly ever lost, what would that mean to you?

I think I could make that very point, if I dig for it.

Personal sales vs personal reported stolen. The paperwork is such there is an underground resale of existing guns. So, legal owners that are criminals is also not accounted for. But, big legal buys shifted to gangs or the Mafia? No, I don't think so, in any bulk.

But, biscuit you have an important point. So, remember this. There is nothing, almost, less perishable than a firearm. We could stop selling them today and get out the brown shits and jack boots, and confiscate and begin the revolution and never get the guns. More guns that people. A wide, underground market, serial numbers, national DB.

So, I think there may be a very insignificant problem with gun dealers, but it is hard to say. The paperwork, and the item accounting, Federal Audit is rough stuff. And the only real example so far, is Fast and Furious. But, The Gun Dealer busted it. Smart enough to preserve the video or he would be the goat.

See, I think you .sig is right on. This describes my wife!

 

[Beefbisquit]

It would seem difficult.

But with the wide misuse of false statistical mathematics and the co-opting of Science with money this is exactly like the AGW debate.

So, let us discuss this.

If you were to see these data in a very clear fashion:

1 - would the results be actionable?
2 - what is a clear fashion? is that only when it supports a political contention?

Say if we found that personal gun owners by and large never sell, and those guns are hardly ever lost, what would that mean to you?

I think I could make that very point, if I dig for it.

Personal sales vs personal reported stolen. The paperwork is such there is an underground resale of existing guns. So, legal owners that are criminals is also not accounted for. But, big legal buys shifted to gangs or the Mafia? No, I don't think so, in any bulk.

But, biscuit you have an important point. So, remember this. There is nothing, almost, less perishable than a firearm. We could stop selling them today and get out the brown shits and jack boots, and confiscate and begin the revolution and never get the guns. More guns that people. A wide, underground market, serial numbers, national DB.

So, I think there may be a very insignificant problem with gun dealers, but it is hard to say. The paperwork, and the item accounting, Federal Audit is rough stuff. And the only real example so far, is Fast and Furious. But, The Gun Dealer busted it. Smart enough to preserve the video or he would be the goat.

See, I think you .sig is right on. This describes my wife!

If gun the stats showed that legal (at one point) guns weren't being used in crimes, you could argue that gun storage laws and lack of training weren't the culprits for the disproportionately high number of gun related injuries/deaths in the USA.

If people aren't storing their firearms properly and they're getting stolen (used in crimes) or kids are accessing them (accidental injuries or deaths), we should be figuring out ways to prevent this from happening. It could very well drastically reduce the number of gun deaths. Legal gun owners aren't the ones committing the crimes, but their negligence and lack of proper training can certainly lead to easier opportunities for those who aren't law abiding to commit crimes with their property.

It should be the responsibility of every gun owner to safely use, practice with, and store their firearms. People who are insistent in being negligent should pay a price, figuratively or literally.

 

[Doer]

This came up in the search.

About 1.4 million firearms were stolen during household burglaries and other property crimes over the six-year period from 2005 through 2010, ...

But I could not see the rest.

​

The estimate for total guns in the USA is 250-350 million.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/
There were 535 accidental firearms deaths in 2006 within a population of almost 300 million people. Although every lost life is tragic, the proportion is not particularly startling. On the other hand, Newsweek has reported that law-abiding American citizens using guns in self-defense during 2003 shot and killed two and one-half times as many criminals as police did, and with fewer than one-fifth as many incidents as police where an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal (2% versus 11%).

I don't see this as an issue. It is more of the Agenda slant to me. It really is not to the the point. Criminals are not often good shots. A concerned citizen is.

 

[Dr Kynes]

I would like to see stats on the percentage of weapons used in crimes that were, at one point, legally obtained. That's to say, someone went to a store, bought the gun legally and it was stolen or lost, and ended up being used in a crime.

I'd like to see the same stats for a Country with tighter storage and training laws.

I'm aware that these stats are probably not available.

mexico's gun laws are quite strict...

perhaps you could start there.

 

[abandonconflict]

That is just not true. Sweden has almost as much gun ownership as the USA. But, has a sedate "shooting" rate befitting a neutral country in Europe. They train all males in gun safety. We don't, that is the problem...fear.

Czech Republic has nation wide, concealed carry, and a very low "shooting" rate.

And you know, I am not on a side. I am neither a gun or a numb nut. Lately I've been working out with the Wing Chun 6 and 1/2 Point pole. I prefer a stick of any size, but, an 8.5 foot, 5 pound teak boat pole (from the Red Boat Opera side of WC) or a stick is not home invasion defense.

So, please, let us discuss with facts and not false rhetoric.

More guns do not mean more shooting, unless you count range work....would you? Some will count all gun discharges as "shooting." Hardly the point, is it?

Another lie. Do you own it or reject it?

Yet in America, more guns does IN FACT correlate with more shootings.

Maybe there is less rhetoric in Sweden and Czech Republic. Maybe the training they have is not just a bunch of NRA rhetoric. I don't know why Swedes and Czechs are able to have more guns and not use them. Maybe there are plenty of legitimate opportunities for people to make a living and thus crime is less likely. Maybe they have shitty guns.

 

[Doer]

No. The "study" is bullshit.

You tell me. What is the vast multiplier, the GINI factor?

 

[abandonconflict]

No. The "study" is bullshit.

Thank you for your contributions. Have a nice day.

 

[Doer]

Thank you for your contributions. Have a nice day.

Hey asshole. I picked that study apart and threw at your feet in piece....details. Your contribution was to be a shit head when disagreed with.

And that is all you have to say? Ignore reality yet again? YOU Have a nice firearm day in America. Though you won't show your face, I guess.

This from the Washington Post.
The U.S. gun murder rate is about 20 times the average for all other countries on this chart. ... I did not include Mexico, which has about triple the U.S.

So, don't include Mexico?????? WTF? Oh, would negate the point, of course.

Yep, and I see what has you going. You believe the Press. That study has more goofy math than AGW. And it is all over the Lib press.

AH HA! More math tap dance lying. Why do you think they have to fall over backwards in math to try to prove the conclusion? IT AIN"T SCIENCE. Math does not prove science. Science proves math.

What is the GINI fact again? Oh yeah, I remember, but you never read the study. Every time you can jack the factor by .001, you get to multiple that States rate by 4.9 to get the murder rate.

And does this study show anything but deaths? NO IT DOESN'T. So all the times a gun is used in self defense but no mortal wound, does not count.

But, Suicide does count with GINI factor a guy bringing a shotgun to a home for mayhem counts. And the amount of hunting licenses etc were used so you don't have take people's word. But that doesn't match the people's word. They say so. I pointed that out.

I shed even further that enormous piece of bullshite you worship.

The cartels may just use machete so that doesn't count. I, oth, showed very simple math, not tortured hiding in science.

Science hiding is the new thuggery. That was my contribution despite your simple minded shit taking.

FAILURE....have a nice day.

 

[burgertime2010]

Mexico's top narco-traffickers need AK-47s to stay competitive. Killing a van full of police is no easy task.....

 

[abandonconflict]

Hey asshole. I picked that study apart.

You are the one unable to face the facts. It is a simple fact that more guns = more shootings. Your arguments have been unconvincing and fallacious, with false premises and biased agenda. You simply have nothing logical to offer as long as you can not face facts.

Thank you for your contributions, have a nice day.

 

[FreedomWorks]

You are the one unable to face the facts. It is a simple fact that more guns = more shootings. Your arguments have been unconvincing and fallacious, with false premises and biased agenda. You simply have nothing logical to offer as long as you can not face facts.

Thank you for your contributions, have a nice day.

You're wrong. The book is called "More guns = Less crime"

 

[FreedomWorks]

Available in hard cover and paper back. I will personally buy you a copy so that you can learn how to use your brain, instead of strong arming people with your Southern California Hollywood liberal political correctness crowd bullcrap.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

Available in hard cover and paper back. I will personally buy you a copy so that you can learn how to use your brain, instead of strong arming people with your Southern California Hollywood liberal political correctness crowd bullcrap.

What happens, crime stays about the same. The difference is the how and where. Such as NYC has a lot of knifings and more violent crime.

 

[darrellduaner]

really, whats the point here? so what if more guns=more violence? i mean, sure, if it isnt true, then great; if not, then so what? is this entire thread just about a moot point? there is so much data manipulation that its hard to definitively tell whats true and what isnt.

 

[Beefbisquit]

mexico's gun laws are quite strict...

perhaps you could start there.

What about Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea? Poland? Norway? New Zealand? Canada?

Mexico is pretty much the exception to the rule. But you already know that, because you're so smart.

Country	Total (calculated)	Homicides	Suicides	Unintentional	Undetermined	Sources and notes
Honduras	64.8 (incomplete)	64.8 (2010)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Honduras[SUP][26][/SUP]
El Salvador	41.11 (incomplete)	39.90 (200	1.06 (1999)	0.15 (1999)	unavailable	Guns in El Salvador[SUP][18][/SUP]
Jamaica	39.74 (mixed years,incomplete)	39.40 (2009)	0.34 (1995)	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Jamaica[SUP][33][/SUP]
Swaziland	37.16 (incomplete)	37.16 (2004)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Swaziland[SUP][62][/SUP]
Guatemala	36.38 (incomplete)	34.8 (2010)	2.30 (2006)	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Guatemala[SUP][25][/SUP]
Colombia	28.14 (mixed years)	27.1 (2010)	0.87 (2009)	0.14 (1999)	0.03 (1999)	Guns in Colombia[SUP][12][/SUP]
South Africa	21.51 (mixed years)	17.00 (2007)	3.81 (1999)	0.35 (1999)	0.35 (1999)	Guns in South Africa[SUP][59][/SUP]
Brazil	19.03 (mixed years)	18.1 (200	0.74 (2000)	0.18 (2000)	0.01 (2000)	Guns in Brazil[SUP][8][/SUP]
Panama	17.60 (mixed years)	16.10 (2010)	0.99 (2002)	0.06 (2002)	0.45 (2002)	Guns in Panama[SUP][47][/SUP]
Uruguay	14.01 (mixed years)	3.43 (2009)	7.03 (2000)	3.46(2000)	0.09 (2000)	Guns in Uruguay[SUP][69][/SUP]
Mexico	11.17 (mixed years)	10.00 (2010)	0.69 (2001)	0.47 (2001))	0.01 (2001)	Guns in Mexico[SUP][40][/SUP]
United States	10.3 (2011)	3.60 (2011)	6.30 (2011)	0.30 (2011)	0.10 (2011)	Guns in United States[SUP][68][/SUP]
Argentina	10.05 (mixed years)	3.0 (200	2.79 (2001)	0.64 (2001)	3.62 (2001)	Guns in Argentina[SUP][1][/SUP]
Montenegro	8.55 (2009, incomplete)	2.06 (2009)	6.49 (2009)	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Montenegro[SUP][42][/SUP]
Paraguay	8.16 (mixed years)	7.30 (2009)	0.58 (2000)	0.26 (2000)	0.02 (2000)	Guns in Paraguay[SUP][48][/SUP]
Nicaragua	7.29 (mixed years)	5.90 (200	0.46 (2002)	0.91 (2002)	0.02 (2001)	Guns in Nicaragua[SUP][45][/SUP]
Costa Rica	6.28 (mixed years)	4.6 (2006)	1.27 (2002)	0.07 (2002)	0.24 (2000)	Guns in Costa Rica[SUP][13][/SUP]
Serbia	3.90 (2010)	0.62 (2010)	2.81 (2010)	0.18 (2010)	0.29 (2010)	Guns in Serbia[SUP][55][/SUP]
Switzerland	3.84 (mixed years)	0.52 (2010)	3.15 (200	0.10 (199	0.07 (1994)	Guns in Switzerland[SUP][64][/SUP]
Chile	3.73 (mixed years)	2.2 (2005)	1.09 (2002)	0.4 (2002)	0.04 (2001)	Guns in Chile[SUP][11][/SUP]
Peru	3.73 (mixed years)	2.60 (2009)	0.11 (2000)	0.90 (2000)	0.12 (2000)	Guns in Peru[SUP][49][/SUP]
Finland	3.64 (2010)	0.26 (2010)	3.34 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	Guns in Finland[SUP][20][/SUP]
Croatia	3.54 (mixed years)	1.1 (2009)	2.35 (2010)	0.07 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	Guns in Croatia[SUP][14][/SUP]
Philippines	3.24 (incomplete)	3.24 (2002)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Philippines[SUP][50][/SUP]
France	3.01 (2009)	0.22 (2009)	2.33 (2009)	0.05 (2009)	0.41 (2009)	Guns in France[SUP][21][/SUP]
Barbados	3.0 (incomplete)	3.0 (2000)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Barbados[SUP][5][/SUP]
Austria	2.95 (mixed years)	0.18 (2010)	2.68 (2010)	0.01 (2009)	0.08 (2010)	Guns in Austria[SUP][3][/SUP]
Estonia	2.54 (2010)	0.30 (2010)	1.57 (2010)	0.07 (2010)	0.60 (2010)	Guns in Estonia[SUP][19][/SUP]
Slovenia	2.49 (mixed years)	0.05 (2010)	2.34 (2010)	0.05 (2009)	0.05 (2010)	Guns in Slovenia[SUP][58][/SUP]
Belgium	2.42 (2006)	0.29 (2006)	1.96 (2006)	0.01 (2006)	0.16 (2006)	Guns in Belgium[SUP][7][/SUP]
Canada	2.38 (mixed years)	0.5 (2009)	1.79 (2006)	0.08 (2001)	0.01 (2006)	Guns in Canada[SUP][10][/SUP]
Bulgaria	2.35 (2011)	0.23 (2011)	0.87 (2011)	1.14 (2011)	0.11 (2011)	Guns in Bulgaria[SUP][9][/SUP]
Luxembourg	2.02 (mixed years)	0.60 (2009)	1.00 (2009)	0.22 (2004))	0.20 (2009)	Guns in Luxembourg[SUP][38][/SUP]
Georgia	1.92 (mixed years)	0.60 (2010)	0.09 (2009)	1.00 (2009)	0.23 (2009)	Guns in Georgia[SUP][22][/SUP]
Israel	1.87 (2009)	0.94 (2009)	0.71 (2009)	0.03 (2009)	0.19 (2009)	Guns in Israel[SUP][31][/SUP]
Macedonia	1.85 (mixed years)	1.07 (2010)	0.63 (2010)	0.15 (2010))	0.00 (1997)	Guns in Macedonia[SUP][39][/SUP]
Norway	1.78 (mixed years)	0.04 (2010)	1.72 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.00 (200	Guns in Norway[SUP][46][/SUP]
Portugal	1.77 (2010)	0.48 (2010)	1.09 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.18 (2010)	Guns in Portugal[SUP][52][/SUP]
Czech Republic	1.76 (2010)	0.12 (2010)	1.39 (2010)	0.10 (2010)	0.15 (2010)	Guns in Czech Republic[SUP][16][/SUP]
Slovakia	1.75 (2010)	0.18 (2010)	0.94 (2010)	0.39 (2010)	0.24 (2010)	Guns in Slovakia[SUP][57][/SUP]
Greece	1.64 (mixed years)	0.59 (2009)	0.97 (2009)	0.08 (2009)	0.00 (199	Guns in Greece[SUP][24][/SUP]
Iceland	1.57 (mixed years, incomplete)	0.32 (2007)	1.25 (2009)	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Iceland[SUP][29][/SUP]
Sweden	1.47 (2010)	0.19 (2010)	1.20 (2010)	0.06 (2010)	0.01 (2010)	Guns in Sweden[SUP][63][/SUP]
Denmark	1.45 (2006)	0.30 (2009)	1.16 (2006)	0.04 (2006)	0.02 (2003)	Guns in Denmark[SUP][17][/SUP]
New Zealand	1.45 (mixed years)	0.26 (2009)	1.14 (2007)	0.05 (2006)	0.00 (2006)	Guns in New Zealand[SUP][44][/SUP]
Latvia	1.43 (2010)	0.18 (2010)	0.94 (2010)	0.04 (2010)	0.27 (2010)	Guns in Latvia[SUP][37][/SUP]
Italy	1.28 (2009)	0.36 (2009)	0.81 (2009)	0.08 (2009)	0.03 (2009)	Guns in Italy[SUP][32][/SUP]
Germany	1.24 (2010)	0.20 (2010)	0.94 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.08 (2010)	Guns in Germany[SUP][23][/SUP]
Australia	1.06 (2010)	0.13 (2010)	0.73 (2010)	0.07 (2010)	0.13 (2010)	Guns in Australia[SUP][2][/SUP]
Moldova	1.03 (2011)	0.45 (2011)	0.42 (2011)	0.08 (2011))	0.08 (2011)	Guns in Moldova[SUP][41][/SUP]
Kyrgyzstan	1.01 (2010)	0.53 (2010)	0.07 (2010)	0.28 (2010)	0.13 (2010)	Guns in Kyrgyzstan[SUP][36][/SUP]
Cyprus	0.96 (mixed years)	0.24 (2010)	0.48 (2010)	0.12 (2009)	0.12 (2010)	Guns in Cyprus[SUP][15][/SUP]
Hungary	0.87 (mixed years)	0.13 (2009)	0.72 (2009)	0.01 (200	0.01 (2002)	Guns in Hungary[SUP][28][/SUP]
Taiwan	0.87 (mixed years)	0.60 (200	0.12 (1994)	0.11 (1994)	0.04 (1994)	Guns in Taiwan[SUP][65][/SUP]
Spain	0.62 (mixed years)	0.15 (2010)	0.42 (2010)	0.05 (2010)	0.00 (2007)	Guns in Spain[SUP][61][/SUP]
India	0.48 (incomplete)	0.30 (2009)	0.14 (200	0.04 (200	unavailable	Guns in India[SUP][30][/SUP]
Netherlands	0.46 (2010)	0.20 (2010)	0.24 (2010)	0.01 (2010)	0.01 (2010)	Guns in Netherlands[SUP][43][/SUP]
Kuwait	0.36 (mixed years)	0.36 (1995)	0.00 (1999)	0.00 (2000)	0.00 (2000)	Guns in Kuwait[SUP][35][/SUP]
Poland	0.25 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.12 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.09 (2010)	Guns in Poland[SUP][51][/SUP]
United Kingdom	0.25 (2010)	0.04 (2010)	0.18 (2010)	0.01 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	Guns in United Kingdom[SUP][67][/SUP]
Ukraine	0.20 (incomplete)	0.20 (2009)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Ukraine[SUP][66][/SUP]
Romania	0.19 (2010)	0.04 (2010)	0.06 (2010)	0.09 (2010)	0.00 (2010)	Guns in Romania[SUP][54][/SUP]
Singapore	0.16 (mixed years)	0.02 (2006)	0.12 (199	0.02 (199	0.00 (199	Guns in Singapore[SUP][56][/SUP]
Qatar	0.15 (incomplete)	0.15 (2004)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Qatar[SUP][53][/SUP]
Zimbabwe	0.12 (mixed years)	0.03 (2007)	0.09 (1995)	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Zimbabwe[SUP][70][/SUP]
Belarus	0.1 (incomplete)	0.1 (2009)	unavailable	unavailable	unavailable	Guns in Belarus[SUP][6][/SUP]
Japan	0.06 (mixed years)	0.00 (200	0.04 (1999)	0.01 (1999)	0.01 (1999)	Guns in Japan[SUP][34][/SUP]
South Korea	0.06 (mixed years)	0.00 (2006)	0.04 (2002)	0.01 (2002)	0.01 (2002)	Guns in South Korea[SUP][60][/SUP]
Azerbaijan	0.04 (incomplete)	0.01 (200	0.01 (2007)	0.02 (2007)	unavailable	Guns in Azerbajan[SUP][4][/SUP]
Hong Kong	0.03 (mixed years)	0.00 (2004)	0.03 (1999)	0.00 (1996)	0.00 (1996)	Guns in Hong Kong[SUP][27][/SUP]

Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population