Hi, im super noob. I have only a small space of 55x50cm. I wanted to make good use of that space so i looked for different techniques. I read about fiming, topping and lst. And since im so noob i really dont want do damage my lil babies. So i thought i would go with lst. The Picture Shows my attempts. Can you give me hints or advice if i did it right or wrong or how to improve? When I transplant them in bigger bots i will have to burry them deeper, because i didnt know how low to put my light. 5 Plants, 4 bagseed put into paper/towel around sep 20ths, S1= Skunk#1 fem much later. Or should I go for topping or fiming instead?
newb trying lst, got hints for me?
- Thread starter lax123
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papasmurph
Member
LST technique works fine, as well as the others you mentioned. Its a matter of how much space you have. Sounds like you dont have much. LST will keep your height down but you need horizontal space for that. If you have bagseed then its safe to assume you dont know which ones are male/female. I recommend topping with minor LSTing with a short veg time (up to 10'' in height then 12/12). I say this because if all seeds are female you need plenty of room for flowering. Pre-flowers should emerge within a week or so of 12/12; if there are any males, discard them (unless you want to breed).
papasmurph
Member
..is the 50x55cm the LxW? If so, what is your height?
thx a lot. So should i bend them back/ remove the wires and go with topping first and lst later or how? And when to top in my case or that "3-5 node rule"? How Long to veg them before i can send them to flower? Can i then discard males and reveg them or will that maybe make the bagseed go hermie? Sry a lot of questions 
Edit: height is about 120cm. But im using DIY led, so the plants cant get that tall because of the lack of light Penetration from far away, final light Output will be around true 250W so maybe i can, idk yet. Currently its 45W led.
Edit: height is about 120cm. But im using DIY led, so the plants cant get that tall because of the lack of light Penetration from far away, final light Output will be around true 250W so maybe i can, idk yet. Currently its 45W led.
cc2012
Well-Known Member
Low Stress Training, from what I've read should be done slowly & carefully, Also when you 1st start to do this let the plant get a little bit of Height first(You do have 120cm of Height - Space for Lights) one Trick I read somewhere was try to do LST just before they due a watering as this is when the Plant starts to Wilt a little and will be easier to bend Etc..
I did find some Info on 1 of the Forum sites about this(or in a book) will have a Dig and post if I can find.
Why the LED setup? I know they(some) are good but that depends on few things..what kinda Lumen output you getting from the 45w?
Peace
I did find some Info on 1 of the Forum sites about this(or in a book) will have a Dig and post if I can find.
Why the LED setup? I know they(some) are good but that depends on few things..what kinda Lumen output you getting from the 45w?
Peace
cc2012
Well-Known Member
Found it - (This is not my work..so Big Respect to Author)
A complete guide to topping, training and pruning
I will cover the basic idea behind topping the plant and how to apply the various techniques in combination for the best results. Keep in mind that this is only one method of growing and that there are many other ways to do it.
Topping the plant means that you remove the main shoot located on the stem. By doing so you will encourage the plant to grow into a bush with a lot of shoots, instead of one big main shoot that you get on the untopped “christmas tree”.
The reason why the plant behaves this way is because the center of growth control, the auxin transport system, is located in the main shoot apex. Sensory pigments in the leafs inform the plant of various things like how much light a leaf at a certain location gets and so on, which then enables the plant to transport energy and growth hormones to various areas.
The mechanism behind the auxin transport system is quite complex, involving various messenger molecules, growth hormones and specific proteins that trigger everything from vegetative growth to flowering in the plant. Some aspects of this mechanism are still unknown and under scientific research. What is known however is that the centre of control for this mechanism is located in the main shoot apex and that it also relies on information from the sensory pigments located in the leafs.
By removing the main shoot, the communication between the leafs and main shoot ends and the result is that the plant assigns the next shoots in line to the job. This means that the smaller shoots on the node beneath the cut starts growing faster and gain height. These shoots usually grow very slowly when the plant is left untopped.
Most of the time this transition is quite fast but some plants that respond poorly to topping might have stunted growth for a while. It is possible to top a plant many times, each time the number of main shoots will double. Give your plants some time to grow before you top them, if they are topped to early they might get stunted for a while. I do top them quite early sometimes as you can probably tell from the pictures that I have included. Go by your feeling, once the plants look strong enough you can start topping and training them.
This is a good way of training the plant if one wants to make the most out of the space available. Topping is also a good way of slowing down plants that tend to stretch a lot, as each time the plant is topped it will redirect energy to a greater number of shoots. The new shoots will never grow as large as the untopped main shoot will but they will most likely produce a larger crop.
There is also a technique called FIM (Fuck I Missed) topping. By leaving a small portion of the growth on the main shoot intact, the plant will for some reason assume that four shoots, instead of two, are the main shoots and they will grow evenly in height. The success of this method is usually up to the luck of the draw but you should make the cut circular so that the remaining tissue forms a “cup”. The same result can however be achieved by topping the plant twice.
Topping the plant is only the first step in the process of training a plant for a super sized crop. After the plant has been topped many times over and starts to gain size, it is time to start training it.
It is not necessary to top the plant in order to start the training. Some people prefer to leave the plant untopped and tie down the main shoot at ground level instead. This will have the same effect as topping it because once again, the auxin transport system located in the main shoot will dictate how the plant grows. When the main shoot is tied down, all shoots above it will grow more rapidly as the plant now assumes that these are the main shoots.
Training the plant is this way is called Low Stress Training or LST. As long as the main shoot is kept lower than the surrounding branches, they will grow rapidly in height.
These diagrams, originally posted by big buddha, give a good picture of what I am talking about. These are excellent diagrams so many thanks to the creator.
More to come...just rolling 1
A complete guide to topping, training and pruning
I will cover the basic idea behind topping the plant and how to apply the various techniques in combination for the best results. Keep in mind that this is only one method of growing and that there are many other ways to do it.
Topping the plant means that you remove the main shoot located on the stem. By doing so you will encourage the plant to grow into a bush with a lot of shoots, instead of one big main shoot that you get on the untopped “christmas tree”.
The reason why the plant behaves this way is because the center of growth control, the auxin transport system, is located in the main shoot apex. Sensory pigments in the leafs inform the plant of various things like how much light a leaf at a certain location gets and so on, which then enables the plant to transport energy and growth hormones to various areas.
The mechanism behind the auxin transport system is quite complex, involving various messenger molecules, growth hormones and specific proteins that trigger everything from vegetative growth to flowering in the plant. Some aspects of this mechanism are still unknown and under scientific research. What is known however is that the centre of control for this mechanism is located in the main shoot apex and that it also relies on information from the sensory pigments located in the leafs.
By removing the main shoot, the communication between the leafs and main shoot ends and the result is that the plant assigns the next shoots in line to the job. This means that the smaller shoots on the node beneath the cut starts growing faster and gain height. These shoots usually grow very slowly when the plant is left untopped.
Most of the time this transition is quite fast but some plants that respond poorly to topping might have stunted growth for a while. It is possible to top a plant many times, each time the number of main shoots will double. Give your plants some time to grow before you top them, if they are topped to early they might get stunted for a while. I do top them quite early sometimes as you can probably tell from the pictures that I have included. Go by your feeling, once the plants look strong enough you can start topping and training them.
This is a good way of training the plant if one wants to make the most out of the space available. Topping is also a good way of slowing down plants that tend to stretch a lot, as each time the plant is topped it will redirect energy to a greater number of shoots. The new shoots will never grow as large as the untopped main shoot will but they will most likely produce a larger crop.
There is also a technique called FIM (Fuck I Missed) topping. By leaving a small portion of the growth on the main shoot intact, the plant will for some reason assume that four shoots, instead of two, are the main shoots and they will grow evenly in height. The success of this method is usually up to the luck of the draw but you should make the cut circular so that the remaining tissue forms a “cup”. The same result can however be achieved by topping the plant twice.
Topping the plant is only the first step in the process of training a plant for a super sized crop. After the plant has been topped many times over and starts to gain size, it is time to start training it.
It is not necessary to top the plant in order to start the training. Some people prefer to leave the plant untopped and tie down the main shoot at ground level instead. This will have the same effect as topping it because once again, the auxin transport system located in the main shoot will dictate how the plant grows. When the main shoot is tied down, all shoots above it will grow more rapidly as the plant now assumes that these are the main shoots.
Training the plant is this way is called Low Stress Training or LST. As long as the main shoot is kept lower than the surrounding branches, they will grow rapidly in height.
These diagrams, originally posted by big buddha, give a good picture of what I am talking about. These are excellent diagrams so many thanks to the creator.
More to come...just rolling 1
cc2012
Well-Known Member
It is possible to keep tying down each new branch as it grows, which will result in a plant that grows into a dense bush. LST training combined with topping can be a very effective way of creating a plant that makes use of all the available space. The trick here is to top the plant at each new node and to keep the internodes as short as possible. Training the plant in this manner takes some time and there is no way to reach good results by being in a hurry. As you can see, the plant in this picture has been both topped and trained. If you look closely you can see where the branches have been tied to the pot.
There are many ways to train a plant, each plant requires a slightly different treatment. The goal is however to get a plant that looks like the one in the picture above. Once that plant goes into flowering it will have many branches with many nodes, you can probably see what I mean. Once the bush gains size and starts to stretch, you will have to start pruning it carefully and wisely.
Just to demonstrate how differently plants can be trained, here are some pictures of plants in early training. All of them were topped first. By training a plant you can also slow down the stretch, especially in tropical sativas.
This Oldtimers Haze was stretching a lot and had quite long internodes so I topped it and trained it to grow around itself and eventually it grew into a sphere
This Kali Mist plant did not like to be topped so I tried to slow it down by tying down the branches vertically. In the end this plant preferred a few main colas so I stopped the training shortly after. Some plants will resist any attempts of training and respond poorly when you try. These plants will probably yield more when left untopped
Here is an example of a Ingemars Punch plant that went through some serious LST training. This plant resembles a creeper vine more than a bush. Here the goal was to keep the plant as low as possible but usually the plant is allowed to grow in size and height so that it produces a larger crop. This example however illustrates the possibilities when it comes to training. Remember that even if your grow room is limited in height, you are not restricted to growing solely lowryders or other strains that stay low, as any plant can be trained to grow in any manner or form. This opens up possibilities for stealthy cab and pc grows. All you have to to is reserve some time for the training during veg and perhaps you will have to continue the training during flowering as well, like in the example above. Anything is possible.
Scrogging
Scrogging, or Screen of Green means that you suspend a net over the plants and allow them to grow through it. This makes it easier to separate the growing branches so that they cover the entire area of the grow room. The scrog net also provides support as the buds can often become so heavy that that the branches cannot support them any more and break under the weight. Thereby the scrog net also removes the need for noisy fans, used to make the stems stronger through the waving effect. Personally never use fans due to limited space.
I usually train the plants for up to three months before flipping the switch, which means that they are thick stemmed and quite large in size. Although plants can be kept very low with training, my aim is to grow large and busy plants that produce the maximum amount of buds. Due to the long vegetative period, the plants are strong and healthy with an abundance of bud sites.
I try to keep the canopy even by topping the plants that stretch more but sometimes it is impossible, especially when growing both indicas and sativas at the same time. One has to adjust according to the plants and direct longer branches to the corners of the grow room, sometimes the only option is to tie the branches horizontally so that they are resting on the scrog net. This can be a strange sight as the buds keep growing vertically out of the side of the flower.
The basic idea is that the training should be complete by the time the plants start flowering and grow through the net. Sometimes a second scrog net is necessary higher up if the plants need further support.
There are also different methods when it comes to scrogging, some people tilt the net so that one side is higher than the other, as this provides a greater surface area for the buds.
Some of the LST and other techniques mentioned here can also be applied to the "Sea of Green" or SOG method of growing, where many small plants are grown instead of a few larger ones for a quick and bountiful harvest. This method is a good alternative for smaller growrooms. Plants should not be topped when using the SOG method as the idea here is to harvest the main cola from a whole bunch of smaller plants and topping them will only slow them down. Although the smaller plants can be trained using these methods, it is probably better to just grow more plants instead for a maximized crop.
Pruning
When the plant is left to grow as it chooses, it usually has more branches than it has the energy to support. This means that a lot of energy is wasted on smaller branches, especially the lower ones. The energy need is so spread out that in extreme cases flowering takes a very long time as the plant tries to supply energy evenly to every location. By removing some of the less important and weaker branches, you can ensure that the larger branches produce a greater amount of high quality bud. The bud on the lower branches that receive less light usually end up as single pop corn buds that never truly mature, so it is best to remove them at an early stage. You become the investment planner for you plants. Observe the growth and remove any branch that has long internodes (the space between the nodes) and any branch that stays significantly lower than the main shoots.
These branches will get very little light and they will also have a hard time to find they way up to the well lit area. Most of the time I end up removing almost all the growth underneath the scrog net, I only leave the fan leafs intact until the plant drops them by itself after the energy has been recovered.
When it comes to removing leaf material opinions vary, some remove leafs and others, like myself, chose not to. I have tried both methods and can honestly say that there is no positive effect really from removing leafs. Keep in mind that fan leafs are the primary location for photosynthesis and that the plant also stores surplus energy in them. By removing the leafs you do double harm, you handicap the plants ability to produce vital energy and you also remove the energy that has already been stored for future use. Furthermore, although it cannot be observed with the naked eye, light actually passes through the leafs and that is why some of the lower leafs stay green throughout the entire grow. It is better to tuck or tie the leafs under the canopy so that light reaches more bud sites, or alternatively cut the leafs in half. Since most of the photosynthetic activity takes place in the fan leafs, the buds themselves do not need light, in other words, bud sites are activated by light when it hits the node but the energy is produced and transported to the buds from the leafs. This is where a scrog net also comes in handy, you can tie down the leafs without removing them and thereby allow more light to reach the buds while no energy is lost.
Topping and training is also a good way to keep mother plants from growing too large. There are several good threads on how to keep bonsai moms on this forum so I will not venture further into that topic.
The combination of all the techniques described here always gives me the best result. I have tried growing plants in every possible manner, and topping, training and pruning produces the largest crops by far. All grow rooms are different and so are each strain of cannabis, in fact, every plant is different, so you will have to try out what works best for you but I hope that this guide at least gave you an idea of what my method is.
Hope this is of some Help...
Peace
Thx a lot. The first Pictures r very nice. Does someone have more Input on this:
I think scrog would be best, but i think if i use a net and all that stuff...and then they turn out to be male ...would be really bad. Also, as noob i like to be able to carry them around and look at them from all sides First i want to see if its all working and if i can produce something lol. Thats why i use bagseed and not my fem seeds (except that one,in case all turn out to be male) I use led because i had a fun time thinking about it and building the Panel, also it has a lot of Advantages, but since its DIY i guess i have to find out if it works at all lol. But in my Picture, right to mj there r Standing 2 much much bigger tomatoes for the lulz, so it grows "stuff", atleast hehe.
From the text i think i started that lst to early and should have topped first...but i read different stuff somewhere
I think scrog would be best, but i think if i use a net and all that stuff...and then they turn out to be male ...would be really bad. Also, as noob i like to be able to carry them around and look at them from all sides First i want to see if its all working and if i can produce something lol. Thats why i use bagseed and not my fem seeds (except that one,in case all turn out to be male) I use led because i had a fun time thinking about it and building the Panel, also it has a lot of Advantages, but since its DIY i guess i have to find out if it works at all lol. But in my Picture, right to mj there r Standing 2 much much bigger tomatoes for the lulz, so it grows "stuff", atleast hehe.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
How long to veg before you can send into flower? I believe the average that people veg for is 4 weeks, however you can veg for as little as one week or as long as 12 weeks. It all depends on how big you want the plants to be, just keep in mind that during flower the plants are also gonna stretch to be two to even three times their size in some cases. Best of luck man.
BostonGardenahh
Well-Known Member
wow ok.. you got lots of info.. everyone is different.. i start LST as soon as it gets the 1st or 2nd leaf.. and i am not gentile w/them i spike them right down to the ground from
to
toDo you at all and when and where do you top them Boston? I
i think after 4 weeks it Shows pre flower in veg. But mine r much younger, can i send them now to flower, see if male (after one week??) discard and then send the females to veg again without risking bagseed is going hermie because of stress or something like that?
BostonGardenahh
Well-Known Member
i don't top myself.. and i'm a big fan of sexing clones rather then the whole plant.. i would suggest you grow them all out (if you can given your limited space) that way you can see the way a few different plants react to what you are doing to them..(even from the same bag seed you can get different phenos the react different) it will make you more comfortable in your next grows..then when you switch the lights pull males.. or if you have the space you can grow them out at 4wks or so root a clone and sex it.. pull the ones that are male to give yourself more room so you can veg as long as you want (lst/firm/top/lollipop/or what ever you want to do).. or you might find yourself w/a kick ass plant and want to pollinate it to get more seeds
cc2012
Well-Known Member
Hiya peeps, Sorry if it was LONG....Post..and anything I post is just to be of help(hopefully) mostly what I have read/found on the Net..I spent a lot of time reading up, downloading and saving Info/Videos/Tutorials...you name it..if I thought it was interesting or relevant I saved it.. I don't say its the De facto..and I'm sure everybody has their own way and opinions..
I Feel I am still learning everyday...be daft not to..
I Feel I am still learning everyday...be daft not to..
Boston, when you look at the pic in my first post: should i burry them deeper and transplant or just bend them even further down and do transplant etc in 1-2 weeks? /or does it look about ok what i did there? As Long there is space i see no Need for doing that flower veg stuff i think. Maybe they will Show preflower eventually by themselfes. There are 2 tomatoes and bean plants in there right now too, once i Need the space they r gone lol
BostonGardenahh
Well-Known Member
that one in the left corner.. that is when i start... but it's easy to fuck them up if you do them that early.. i use pipe cleaners.. i cut them in half them then bend them to pin down my plants. if the roots are holding the soil together i would transplant them now. it's better if they are in the final container.. i would transplant them... bury a little deeper... then start training them...it's easier then it looks. once it all starts coming together it will be a breeze.. http://www.autoflowering-cannabis.com/tie-down-low-stress-trainin.html
although you could keep doing what you are doing and they would still lst nicely.. but i threw in the pic to show you they can take some abuse. i mean you still have to be careful w/your plants. but it took me a while before i was comfortable to pin them down so hard.. but once you get your feet wet it's gravy and the best way to get the most tops in my opinion..i use the circle lst.
thx man. great link, great help. Can i ask you some more? I will let them dry for transplant. Which Kind of pot would you recommend to use in my space of 55cm x 50cm, they r 5 plants, but i guess with my luck only the feminized will be fem lol. Even a 3 gallon pot with its 25,4cm Diameter would be too big, since my width is 50cm and 5 plants.On the other Hand if i knew like 3 of them were male and I discard them, i had much more space for bigger pots. I Or should i look for those that dont have a that big Diameter but r bigger in height? Or should i get a smaller pot (between 1-2 gallons for Fitting Diameter for 5 plants) and then transplant them a third time, when i know which are male and female? What Kind of pot is that in your pics, and do you use autoflowers since the link Shows them?
BostonGardenahh
Well-Known Member
i'm using 3-5 gal fabric pots.. if i were you i'd try and get something deep.. you might have to think outside the box.. like a small waste bucket or something like that..you could get 4 3gal fabric pots in there.. they would be a little tight but.. and you have at least a 50/50 chance on those other seeds being fem soo. but if you have the time you could transplant them again if you wanted. just remember every time you transplant your plant will need a little time to get over the shock.. yes i'm doing autos.. i have a little 4x3.5 closet w/2 300w LEDs and with the autos i have a perpetual grow.. every time i harvest a plant i just drop another seed.. it's very convenient for me.. i get to grow multiple strains w/one room w/out any down time...
thx a lot.
that sounds like fun, never thought about it, no seperate cloning/ veg area and stuff. How many plants do you Support in your 4x3,5 feet room with 600W led, do you give them full power all the time? I wonder how much would be sufficient for my 50x55 space. I got 3 stages,true 45W up to 140W, each adding more % red and WW . Currently i added a DIY 40W veg Panel to those 45W. And i have another 2x30W WW and 2x30W 630nm cobs coming. So that will be about 240W for those 50x55, you think thats sufficient? Hehe i have about 7 fem seeds, i guess after i might try that Auto stuff. Did you make seeds or do you just always buy fems? Edit: but thinking about it, with a veg area and cloning would using non Auto maybe be faster and yield more?
BostonGardenahh
Well-Known Member
i try to only do 6 at a time..i do just use full power.. my lights have two switches..so i can go 100w 200w or 300w... i keep them on 24/7 pretty much in the cold months due to heat issues and 18/6 in the warm months... ya it would be much better if i could keep mother plants and just cut clones..i just don't have the space and i'm also waiting for them to finish writing legislation... i'm a medical marijuana patient so i'm growing legally.. but they haven't set plant limits yet.. it's been talked about a limit of 6.. but they won't say yet if that's 6 mature and x amount of clones/veg or if it's gunna be 6 total.. so i decided to go w/this set up.. best for my situation.. and i just wrapped up a marijuana distribution case a cpl years ago.. so i have to be careful not to violate any regulations