If government provides "services" that are so good, why do they have to use force ?

[Hazydat620]

I didn't think that they extort each other, the store extorts me for the producers goods, If consumers could get the goods cheaper from the producer why shouldn't I be able to. Maybe these producers should scale back operations and not produce as much if they cannot get rid of it, you then say this is where the store comes in, but this is only passing the buck on to the store. Do you know how much food is thrown away in this country each day? $.99 stores wouldn't exist without the large magnitude of extra stock and waste being produced. Do you know how many cars are being produced each day, is there really that many consumers to purchase them all, I think not, so why produce them?

 

[Dr Kynes]

I didn't think that they extort each other, the store extorts me for the producers goods, If consumers could get the goods cheaper from the producer why shouldn't I be able to. Maybe these producers should scale back operations and not produce as much if they cannot get rid of it, you then say this is where the store comes in, but this is only passing the buck on to the store. Do you know how much food is thrown away in this country each day? $.99 stores wouldn't exist without the large magnitude of extra stock and waste being produced. Do you know how many cars are being produced each day, is there really that many consumers to purchase them all, I think not, so why produce them?

you are not being extorted by stores either.

if you REALLY want something and dont want to pay for the store owner's profit margin, MAKE IT YOURSELF!

but then you would not be a "Consumer" but rather a Producer.

and if you happen to grow more of something than you need then you have created a surplus, and what do you propose doing with that surplus? throw it out or trade it to somebody else who produces more than they need of something you lack... oh shit now you have re-invented commerce!

how much food is thrown away each year is a function of OVERPRODUCTION. if we did not produce TOO MUCH food, the price for the food you require would be MUCH HIGHER. overproduction (surplus) keeps costs lower for you, the hungry shopper, because surpluses are an expense to the producer and they really want to shift that excess inventory.

you really do not have a handle on economics at all do you?

if i dig a clay pit in my yard, construct a kiln, and build a potter's wheel to make pots for my kitchen, what do i do with the clay pit, kiln and wheel when i have enough pots? demolish them? no, i make more pots for sale to other people who may not have the time skill or inclination to make their own pots.

as i get better, and make more pots, i can produce better, larger and more desirable pots, increasing their Utility, and Desirability, then i can decide whether to make more and sell them cheaper, or increase the Scarcity of my pottery and sell fewer at a higher price.

meanwhile, across the village green, the baker, silversmith, brewer and blacksmith are all doing the same thing. as a result, i can exchange my pots for better tools, fresh bread and pastries, frothy delicious beer, and shiny baubles to win the hand of the red haired farmer's daughter up the road....

welcome to SOCIETY, and it is driven by commerce and the division of labour.

thats what started the wheels turning and created the society we enjoy today, complete with science, technology, and medical practitioners who help to ensure you live long enough to sit on the interwebs bitching about society, instead of dying from an infected rat bite in your early teens, or being captured by the local bandit king's henchmen and being assfucked to death in their rubbish strewn hideout.

 

[Hazydat620]

Yes, you are a producer of a product then. In your scenario you never once mentioned taking your pots to someone else to sell it for you, you took it to the consumer yourself and sold it at a price that was reasonable for both. What happens when the general public can't afford these goods cause of a middle mans mark up. Yes your correct, surplus does keep the prices of goods down, but lets take the produce aspect, do you know how much we spend on farm subsidies a year? billions, to keep farmers from using all of their fields to keep produce prices high, good for them bad for us. Have you ever thought about the direct correlation between the farm subsidies and why so many people have to use SNAP and WIC. I think its funny that you think you have a really good grasp on a system that you think works really well, while I have a better grasp of why it fails horribly.

 

[spandy]

I can't stop laughing at the people complaining about getting middled by middlemen, lol.


Like buying a car at a dealership and then having the balls to complain about anything at all. WTF did you expect?

 

[heckler73]

Sorry Kynes, but WalFart does extort producers.
It's part of their business model. They try to maximize receipts from consumer and producer surplus, much like any Mono/Oligo-poly.
The main difference being their focus is on the producer side so as to minimize impact on the consumer. In order to ensure flow of goods into consumer hands, they can't push that side of the equation since their mantra is "always lower prices".
So, they squeeze producers instead.
http://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know

 

[Dr Kynes]

Yes, you are a producer of a product then. In your scenario you never once mentioned taking your pots to someone else to sell it for you, you took it to the consumer yourself and sold it at a price that was reasonable for both. What happens when the general public can't afford these goods cause of a middle mans mark up. Yes your correct, surplus does keep the prices of goods down,

and that is your sticking point? the shopkeeper?

his function is to accumulate the surplus from one producer, store it in his warehouse, and sell it as it is desired while the farmer/brewer/blacksmith/etc can concentrate on making something else which might also be desireable.
the shopkeeper's cousin, the Travelling Merchant, picks up goods the shopkeeper cant sell in his village and brings it to the next village, who's potter might suck, or who have few silversmiths but a couple weavers, which make cloth he then brings back to village A, which you may not have noticed, has no weaver.

but lets take the produce aspect, do you know how much we spend on farm subsidies a year? billions, to keep farmers from using all of their fields to keep produce prices high, good for them bad for us.

you have no idea what subsidies do or how they function either apparently.

1: we need LOTS OF WHEAT

2: when too much wheat is grown, prices fall (yay! cheap bread!)

3: low wheat prices SUCK for the farmer, so next season he plants something that may return more money for the same investment in his labour and land, for example, barley for the brewer, his neighbor grows hops, and his neighbor grows soya, all get more per bushel than wheat.

4: now there is a wheat shortage (bummer, now you cant buy bread with a wheelbarrow full of cash! so hungry...)

5: Foood Riot!

6: many politicians get burnt at the stake or "defenestrated" for not providing enough food to the people.

7: the next crop of leaders decide to set up a subsidy/allotment system, which guarantees a set price for wheat, but limits production to avoid gluts. IF the farmer accepts the deal, he will grow SOME wheat, at a set price (subsidy) but no more than the estimated ideal supply to keep bread prices not too high, and not too low (allotment). thus the subsidy/allotment system

8: now you can buy bread, and the farmer doesnt lose his shirt providing that bread. (at least thats how it is supposed to work...)

Have you ever thought about the direct correlation between the farm subsidies and why so many people have to use SNAP and WIC. I think its funny that you think you have a really good grasp on a system that you think works really well, while I have a better grasp of why it fails horribly.

i KNOW i have a good grasp of how this shit works, because I LIVE IT.

you however are sorely misinformed.

if you expect perfection in any system, you will always be disappointed buthurt and angry.

this system (capitalism and commerce) is working better than any other system ever devised.

if you have a better idea, lets hear it!

 

[Dr Kynes]

Sorry Kynes, but WalFart does extort producers.
It's part of their business model. They try to maximize receipts from consumer and producer surplus, much like any Mono/Oligo-poly.
The main difference being their focus is on the producer side so as to minimize impact on the consumer. In order to ensure flow of goods into consumer hands, they can't push that side of the equation since their mantra is "always lower prices".
So, they squeeze producers instead.
http://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know

yes, this one company squeezes their suppliers, but that is not the way it is supposed to work.

and several suppliers have rejected walmart's predations, which is why they dont carry many products which they once did.

 

[Rob Roy]

The store is not selling a service,it is selling goods. The service is acting as a middle man from the producers of said goods. Would I rather get the goods at cost from the producer of said goods, yes, but the producer has bought the service of the store to sell his goods usually by contract from the store to not sell directly to the consumer, extortion as I see it. Or did I not understand your ?

I see the distinction you are making. It's possible that the seller produced the goods, but most groceries probably not. Although the store is still providing a service, which is a location that concentrates goods in one area for consumer convenience. I think for extortion to exist there needs to be a removal of choice or threats to remove free choice. You as a consumer still maintain a choice to purchase elsewhere, so I'm not sure where you see the extortion.

 

[Rob Roy]

And may I ask how you would go about this? Would you go to a light pole company, buy the light pole, dig the light pole hole,secure light pole so it didn't kill someone in a heavy storm, dig trench for electrical, run electrical, back fill everything back to normal? You would most likely hire out a few contractors to do some of the work, have you ever priced something like that out? ME, I would rather pay a small fee every year to have a light every where I went. I would like that fee to be smaller, but there's too many that say all these services should not be done by the people that get that fee, but contract that out to companies who waste it and usually go over budget or steal it.

So far the sun is still free. Solar power works for me.

I generally do my own work, so no contractors on my road.

So anyhow, would you care to take a stab at answering the original questions I posed in the first post on this thread?

 

[Rob Roy]

And may I ask how you would go about this? Would you go to a light pole company, buy the light pole, dig the light pole hole,secure light pole so it didn't kill someone in a heavy storm, dig trench for electrical, run electrical, back fill everything back to normal? You would most likely hire out a few contractors to do some of the work, have you ever priced something like that out? ME, I would rather pay a small fee every year to have a light every where I went. I would like that fee to be smaller, but there's too many that say all these services should not be done by the people that get that fee, but contract that out to companies who waste it and usually go over budget or steal it.

You should be free to consolidate your expenditures and join with others to pay a fee for lites if that's what everybody in your group agrees with. Conversely others should be free to not be in your group and seek other lighting or none at all. You'd pay for that which you use and so would they. That seems reasonable enough to me.

 

[Hazydat620]

and that is your sticking point? the shopkeeper?

his function is to accumulate the surplus from one producer, store it in his warehouse, and sell it as it is desired while the farmer/brewer/blacksmith/etc can concentrate on making something else which might also be desireable.
the shopkeeper's cousin, the Travelling Merchant, picks up goods the shopkeeper cant sell in his village and brings it to the next village, who's potter might suck, or who have few silversmiths but a couple weavers, which make cloth he then brings back to village A, which you may not have noticed, has no weaver.


you have no idea what subsidies do or how they function either apparently.

1: we need LOTS OF WHEAT

2: when too much wheat is grown, prices fall (yay! cheap bread!)

3: low wheat prices SUCK for the farmer, so next season he plants something that may return more money for the same investment in his labour and land, for example, barley for the brewer, his neighbor grows hops, and his neighbor grows soya, all get more per bushel than wheat.

4: now there is a wheat shortage (bummer, now you cant buy bread with a wheelbarrow full of cash! so hungry...)

5: Foood Riot!

6: many politicians get burnt at the stake or "defenestrated" for not providing enough food to the people.

7: the next crop of leaders decide to set up a subsidy/allotment system, which guarantees a set price for wheat, but limits production to avoid gluts. IF the farmer accepts the deal, he will grow SOME wheat, at a set price (subsidy) but no more than the estimated ideal supply to keep bread prices not too high, and not too low (allotment). thus the subsidy/allotment system

8: now you can buy bread, and the farmer doesnt lose his shirt providing that bread. (at least thats how it is supposed to work...)




i KNOW i have a good grasp of how this shit works, because I LIVE IT.

you however are sorely misinformed.

if you expect perfection in any system, you will always be disappointed buthurt and angry.

this system (capitalism and commerce) is working better than any other system ever devised.

if you have a better idea, lets hear it!

Why does that "one" farmer have to produce so much wheat? Why is that his only crop every year? Your telling me that these small time farmers produce so much wheat that their local communities can't consume it all? Why do so few very large wheat producers have to create so much excess in a market that can't afford it? Why can't local growers set their own prices according to their local demand? You also seem to like idea of bringing in products from other countries to undercut the local competitors by your first statement. Like you stated I seem to not " get it" so explain it some more in detail, I'm not but hurt by the way and not whining about, I've made the choices to not participate your "Garden of Eden" economic system.

 

[NLXSK1]

I keep seeing all this envy and anger at people making profit and getting rich.

Why dont you *general* go spend time becoming good at something and make enough money so you dont have to covet so much of other peoples hard work...

It is more productive than sitting around hating other people.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Why does that "one" farmer have to produce so much wheat? Why is that his only crop every year? Your telling me that these small time farmers produce so much wheat that their local communities can't consume it all? Why do so few very large wheat producers have to create so much excess in a market that can't afford it? Why can't local growers set their own prices according to their local demand? You also seem to like idea of bringing in products from other countries to undercut the local competitors by your first statement. Like you stated I seem to not " get it" so explain it some more in detail, I'm not but hurt by the way and not whining about, I've made the choices to not participate your "Garden of Eden" economic system.

and you spin out of control, crashing into the wall of complex interactions which make modern society possible.

in my simple example all the fundamental forces are there, supply, demand, exports, imports, free and voluntary associations, and thus a society.

farmers, LIKE ANY TRADESMAN, seek to get maximum return on their investment of labour time and materials. if everybody in tour town grows dope, you cannot sell dope at any price which offsets your investment, unless everybody else's dope is seedy, sour and impotent, while yours is The Bomb, in which case you and the rest of the dope peddlers on your block are not even in the same market.

if everybody's dope is good, then you must decide whether to grow only enough dope to satisfy YOUR needs, thus no surplus to sell, or ship that dope over to the next county where nobody is growing weed, and sell it for a price which offsets your expenses at home in growing the dope, plus the expense, time and effort you must expend to sell the dope in town B.

conversely you can sell that dope to a MERCHANT in town B, who will pay you less than you would have gotten if you sold it yourself, but you dont have to stand on the corner all day slanging nickel bags while your next grow is delayed until you can get home and tend it.

the merchant must offset YOUR costs (which are passed on to him) as well as his own costs, while ensuring at least some profit for himself, since buying and re-selling dope is his trade. as a result his price for your dope will necessarily be higher than the price you would charge for your dope if you were to slang it yourself.

meanwhile, all the dipshits in town B are bitching about how much dope costs in their city, and they start blaming YOU the dope grower for the economic realities which make dope more costly in their town than in yours.

why do YOU have to grow so much dope so that they must buy it from you?

why should you profit by their own inability to grow their own dope?

you are now Big Marijuana, and they start passing regulations on your "cheap imported weed" which of course raises the prices even higher.

now the only dope available for a reasonable price in town B is dirtweed grown by some dumbasses in the boonies behind town B, and it's now YOUR fault (in your role as "Big Marijuana") their dope is expensive AND shitty.


rabble rabble rabble.

you dont know how agriculture works, you dont know how commerce works, you dont know how subsidies and allotments work, what DO you know, maybe we can start from there.

 

[Rob Roy]

Why does that "one" farmer have to produce so much wheat? Why is that his only crop every year? Your telling me that these small time farmers produce so much wheat that their local communities can't consume it all? Why do so few very large wheat producers have to create so much excess in a market that can't afford it? Why can't local growers set their own prices according to their local demand? You also seem to like idea of bringing in products from other countries to undercut the local competitors by your first statement. Like you stated I seem to not " get it" so explain it some more in detail, I'm not but hurt by the way and not whining about, I've made the choices to not participate your "Garden of Eden" economic system.

Your last line makes sense, the rest of your post involves choices that concern other people. You should make your choices, but not make others choices for them or ask a coercive government to act as your bully. If you like local food, I'd say grow your own or buy from the local producer. In a free market prices aren't set by a control device, the natural order of the market does it. As far as prohibiting people from trading with other countries, how is that any of your business either? Shouldn't the people that want those products be able to freely contract for them?

 

[Hazydat620]

Your last line makes sense, the rest of your post involves choices that concern other people. You should make your choices, but not make others choices for them or ask a coercive government to act as your bully. If you like local food, I'd say grow your own or buy from the local producer. In a free market prices aren't set by a control device, the natural order of the market does it. As far as prohibiting people from trading with other countries, how is that any of your business either? Shouldn't the people that want those products be able to freely contract for them?

Like our friend the dr. has already explained it isn't really a free market. Well we will see how those same people feel about it when the people they work for have to lay them off and close their doors because some Int. company(or walmart) has come along and flooded the market with cheap goods, cause they pay there workers shit.

 

[cannabineer]

yes, this one company squeezes their suppliers, but that is not the way it is supposed to work.

and several suppliers have rejected walmart's predations, which is why they dont carry many products which they once did.

How not? Businessmen since the dawn of trade have always sought to build their margins at both ends of the transaction. If you can make the bolded stick, I'm paying attention.

 

[Rob Roy]

Like our friend the dr. has already explained it isn't really a free market. Well we will see how those same people feel about it when the people they work for have to lay them off and close their doors because some Int. company(or walmart) has come along and flooded the market with cheap goods, cause they pay there workers shit.

If you don't like Walmart, withdraw your support/dollars to the extent you are able. I don't like Walmart getting government preference or benefitting from eminent domain, but I like the convenience of a diversity of products in one location.

What other people pay for labor I think should be between the laborer and the person paying them as long as they both have the right to disengage if they cannot agree. It's none of my business or yours what other people agree to, if the agreement doesn't involve us. Also, not to be a dick, but maybe you should take a couple bong hits and chill a bit.

 

[Dr Kynes]

ok, so you were in construction...

did you manufacture your own nails hammers, screwdrivers and other tools?

did you construct the beams and trusses in your own foundry and schlep them to the job site on your own burro drawn wagon?

did you draw the wire for the electrical, cast the pipes for the plumbing, and burn the lime for the concrete yourself?

NO.

you bought all that shit from somebody else, who ALSO did not produce it, but was instead a distributor of the produce of many different hands.

the distributor for your materials and tools was a MERCHANT who purchased the surplus product of other men's labours, moved it to his central location and stored it for sale later to those who might need it.

his trade is the warehouseman and merchant, and he must make enough money to keep clothes on his own back and a roof over his own head too. his contribution to the system is as the middleman, which seems to irk you.

if you had to schlep from lumber mill to cement factory to foundry to tool and die maker, to wire spooler, to pipe caster, to paint mixer.... before too long you would come up with the brilliant idea to buy MORE than you needed and sell the excess to other tradesmen in your field who didnt feel like schlepping all that way for every job, and thus you would discover a need, fill that need and become the FIRST MERCHANT IN EXISTENCE!

thanks a lot asshole! now we have middlemen again!! gahh!! why must you keep doing this!

it's all your fault. this is why we cant have nice things!

even if you could "click and ship" EVERYTHING, FedEX is also a middleman. those cockbags!! GRRRR!!

Rabble Rabble Rabble!

 

[Dr Kynes]

How not? Businessmen since the dawn of trade have always sought to build their margins at both ends of the transaction. If you can make the bolded stick, I'm paying attention.

the walmart contracts which require suppliers to lower their invoice per unit every year are a new invention.

walmart is using it's power in the retail market to exert pressure on the wholesale market for their own profit, at the expense of the very hands which feed them, their suppliers.

if walmart wanted to carry The Dr.'s Organic California Grown Tomatoes on their shelves, i would not deal with them, since i would be required to drop my wholesale prices constantly until i was unable to operate at a profit.

plus i like spending my sundays (in season) at the farmer's market

 

[Hazydat620]

and you spin out of control, crashing into the wall of complex interactions which make modern society possible.

in my simple example all the fundamental forces are there, supply, demand, exports, imports, free and voluntary associations, and thus a society.

farmers, LIKE ANY TRADESMAN, seek to get maximum return on their investment of labour time and materials. if everybody in tour town grows dope, you cannot sell dope at any price which offsets your investment, unless everybody else's dope is seedy, sour and impotent, while yours is The Bomb, in which case you and the rest of the dope peddlers on your block are not even in the same market.

if everybody's dope is good, then you must decide whether to grow only enough dope to satisfy YOUR needs, thus no surplus to sell, or ship that dope over to the next county where nobody is growing weed, and sell it for a price which offsets your expenses at home in growing the dope, plus the expense, time and effort you must expend to sell the dope in town B.

conversely you can sell that dope to a MERCHANT in town B, who will pay you less than you would have gotten if you sold it yourself, but you dont have to stand on the corner all day slanging nickel bags while your next grow is delayed until you can get home and tend it.

the merchant must offset YOUR costs (which are passed on to him) as well as his own costs, while ensuring at least some profit for himself, since buying and re-selling dope is his trade. as a result his price for your dope will necessarily be higher than the price you would charge for your dope if you were to slang it yourself.

meanwhile, all the dipshits in town B are bitching about how much dope costs in their city, and they start blaming YOU the dope grower for the economic realities which make dope more costly in their town than in yours.

why do YOU have to grow so much dope so that they must buy it from you?

why should you profit by their own inability to grow their own dope?

you are now Big Marijuana, and they start passing regulations on your "cheap imported weed" which of course raises the prices even higher.

now the only dope available for a reasonable price in town B is dirtweed grown by some dumbasses in the boonies behind town B, and it's now YOUR fault (in your role as "Big Marijuana") their dope is expensive AND shitty.


rabble rabble rabble.

you dont know how agriculture works, you dont know how commerce works, you dont know how subsidies and allotments work, what DO you know, maybe we can start from there.

Why do you think I'm mad at the grower? What happens when the market taps out at quality and the market is flooded with quality product and your merchant can't sell your product to make a profit because of his overhead? Does he buy more to get it at cost? That really doesn't sound like a solution just delaying the inevitable. So then what happens to you when the music stop's for that merchant? you lose everything you thought you had?