Pearl Harbor
- Thread starter dirtsurfr
- Start date
Singlemalt
Well-Known Member
That was moving.
Perspective is based on experience and knowledge. Some of us had parents, relatives and neighbors that fought WW2; that colors our perspective from our earliest memories. You younger ones can't see it from our perspective. I'd have dropped them
Perspective is based on experience and knowledge. Some of us had parents, relatives and neighbors that fought WW2; that colors our perspective from our earliest memories. You younger ones can't see it from our perspective. I'd have dropped them
Me too. The death toll would have been much, much worse if we had decided on a ground attack with infantry. The geography of japan coupled with their tenacity and refusal to surrender would have resulted in one of the, if not THE bloodiest conflicts in history. People spew out the numbers of casualties from the nuclear bombs like they would have been avoided by electing a full-scale ground assault on JAPAN!!!! These people did not even surrender immediately following the nuclear attacks, what do you think would have happened in a conventional war.. it was the obvious choice IMO.
Commander Strax
Well-Known Member
according to this http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp10.shtml there were less than 200,000 killed at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
http://www.aasc.ucla.edu/cab/200708230009.html says 225,000
total global deaths for WW2........ 60 to 85 million
there were 6 million people in Tokyo, they could have bombed it instead
http://www.aasc.ucla.edu/cab/200708230009.html says 225,000
total global deaths for WW2........ 60 to 85 million
there were 6 million people in Tokyo, they could have bombed it instead
Most of the Killing was done prior to the Nukes. Fuk 80% of Toyko was gone before the bombs...most cities were 50% destroyed beofre the Bomb. General Curtis Lamay's bomb group did a hell of a job prepping the battlefield in case of an Infantry ground assult but they dropped the bombs instead. when Laymay was asked if he would have liked to have killed less folks his response was what every Infantry man wants to hears, : would you have suggested that we kill fewer Japs and let our boys get slaughtered when they hit the beach, how moral is that."
General Curtis LeMay
[video=youtube;sDrPLANLvTY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDrPLANLvTY[/video]
BarnBuster
Virtually Unknown Member
just finished a new book about Pearl Harbor, Adm Kimmel and Gen Short, worth a read:
Last edited:
haight
Well-Known Member
MAN, GET A GRIP ON YOURSELF
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
It is an extremely meaningful gesture for Prime Minister Abe to come to visit the Arizona Memorial, just as it was for President Obama to visit the Hiroshima Memorial.
Some might argue it came too late; my own grandfather was a WWII war veteran and did not live to see these events.
My response is that these events are for our generation, so that we don't forget how awful total war in the Nuclear Age can be- and to remember that we are much stronger together as friends.
It's not quite Dec 7 yet, but it's been on my mind lately. Recent world events have shown me that we are just far enough away from those days that some people will consider total war as a way to achieve their goals again, just as Americans seem to have forgotten the lessons of the Great Depression of the Thirties.
May we all find peace- and the chance to share it with our great grandchildren.
Some might argue it came too late; my own grandfather was a WWII war veteran and did not live to see these events.
My response is that these events are for our generation, so that we don't forget how awful total war in the Nuclear Age can be- and to remember that we are much stronger together as friends.
It's not quite Dec 7 yet, but it's been on my mind lately. Recent world events have shown me that we are just far enough away from those days that some people will consider total war as a way to achieve their goals again, just as Americans seem to have forgotten the lessons of the Great Depression of the Thirties.
May we all find peace- and the chance to share it with our great grandchildren.
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
Not being a military veteran, there are many things about serving that I don't understand. This post is three years old and I hope I might change your mind? I'm sincerely interested.
Popular myth that the atomic bombs ended the war, Russia's entry against Japan was the main factor.
just finished a new book about Pearl Harbor, Adm Kimmel and Gen Short, worth a read:
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit of a WWII scholar and I disagree. Russia saw the end coming and made some land grabs while the getting was good.
But it made Japan see that it was absolutely hopeless to go on.
“The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”
— Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, WWII Air Force Commander of the 21st Bomber Command, Sept. 20, 1945.
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
Two nuclear weapons and the threat of many more certainly weighed heavily on the decision. He had his own reasons for saying what he did.
Twice
Lemay had already directed the firebombing of 67 major cities, Japanese cities were especially vulnerable to firebombing. All the large cities were already destroyed. Tokyo's firebombing caused more immediate deaths than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
"The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II,greater than Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events."
Lemay was only one of many opinions that the bomb didn't need to be dropped.
In Mandate for Change, Gen. Dwight Eisenhower wrote that when Secretary of War Henry Stimson told him atomic bombs were going to be used, “I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary…
Alperovitz’s research found that Adm. Lewis Strauss, special assistant to WW II Navy Secretary James Forrestal, wrote to the naval historian Robert Albion Dec. 19, 1960 “from the Navy’s point of view, there are statements by Admiral King, Admiral Halsey, Admiral Radford, Admiral Nimitz and others who expressed themselves to the effect that neither the atomic bomb nor the proposed invasion of the Japanese mainland were necessary to produce the surrender.”
In early May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded in his diary, "I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."
Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 350-351.
There are many more
BarnBuster
Virtually Unknown Member
save it for the Nagasaki and Hiroshima thread(s) in August, dude.
Medal of Honor
Bennion, Mervyn, Capt., USN, CO of USS West Virginia, casualty
Cannon, George H., First Lt., USMC, casualty of Midway Island NAS
Finn, John W., Lt.(jg), USN, NAS Kaneohe Bay, from Los Angeles, CA (20 shrapnel wounds from firing at Japanese planes)
Flaherty, Francis C., Ens., USNR, casualty of USS Oklahoma
Fuqua, Samuel G. (Glenn), Capt., USN, USS Arizona, from Missouri
Hill, Edwin J. (Joseph), Boatswain CWO, USN, casualty of USS Nevada
Jones, Herbert C., Ens., USN, casualty of USS California
Kidd, Isaac C., R. Adm., USN, from Ohio, casualty of USS Arizona
Pharris, Jackson C., Gunner, USN, USS California, from Columbus, GA
Reeves, Thomas J., Chief Radioman WO(RAD), USN, casualty of USS California
Ross, Donald K., Lt.Cmdr, USN, USS Nevada
Scott, Robert R., Machinist’s Mate first class MM1c, USN, casualty of USS California
Tomich, Peter, Chief Watertender, USN, casualty of USS Utah
Van Valkenburgh, Franklin, Capt(CO), USN, CO USS Arizona, casualty
Ward, James Richard, Seaman first class, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
Young, Cassin, Capt., USN, Washington DC, USS Vestal
Navy Cross
Austin, John A., Chief Carpenter, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
Baker, Lionel H., Pharmacist’s Mate second class, USN
Bolser, Gordon E. Lt.(jg), USN
Bothne, Adoloph M., Boatswain, USN
Burford, William P., Lt. Comdr., USN
Christopher, Harald J., Ens., USNR, casualty of USS Nevada
Curtis, Ned B., Pharmacist’s Mate second class, USN
Daly, Edward Carlyle, Coxwain, USN, casualty of USS Downes
Darling, Willard D., Cpl., USMC
Davis, Frederick C., Ens., USNR, casualty of USS Nevada
Dickinson, Clarence E. Jr., Lt., USN
Douglas, C. E., Gunnery Sgt., USMC
Driskel, Joseph R., Corporal, USMC
Dunlap, Ernest H. Jr., Ens., USN
Edwards, John Perry, Ens., USNR
Etchell, George D., Shipfitter, USN
Fleming, W.D., Boatswain’s Mate first class, USN
Gombasy, L.G., Seaman second class, USN
Graham, Donald A., Aviation Machinist’s Mate first class, USN
Hailey, Thomas E., Sgt., USMC
Hansen, Alfred L., Chief Machinist’s Mate, USN
Huttenberg, Allen J., Ens., USNR
Isquith, Solomon S., Lt. Cmdr. USN
Jewel, Jesse D., Comdr.(MC), USN
Kauffman, Draper L., Lt., USNR
Larson, Nils R., Ens., USN
Ley, F. C. Jr., Fireman second class, USNR
McMurtry, Paul J., Boatswain’s Mate first class, USN
Mead, Harry R., Radioman second class, USN
Miller, Doris, Mess Attendant first class, USN (Read More)
Miller, Jim D., Lt.(jg), USN
Moore, Fred K., Seaman first class, USN, casualty of USS Arizona
Outerbridge, William W., Lt. Comdr., USN
Parker, William W., Seaman first class, USN
Peterson, Robert J., Radioman second class, USN
Pharris, Jackson C., Gunner, USN (upgraded to Medal of Honor)
Phillips, John S., Comdr. USN
Riggs, Cecil D., Lt. Comdr. (MC), USN
Robb, James W. Jr., Lt.(jg), USN
Roberts, William R., Radioman second class, USN
Ruth, Wesley H., Ens., USN
Singleton, Arnold, Ens., USN
Smith, Harold F., Boatswain’s Mate second class, USN
Snyder, J. L., Yeoman first class USN
Taussig, Joseph K. Jr., Ens., USN
Taylor, Thomas H., Ens., USN
Teaff, Perry L, Ens., USN
Thatcher, Albert C., Aviation Machinists Mate second class, USN
Thomas, Francis J., Lt. Comdr., USN
Thomas, Robert E. Jr., Ens., USN
Vaseen, John B., Fireman second class, USNR
Silver Star
Kiefer, Edwin H., Lt.(jg), USNR
Marshall, Theodore W., Lt., USNR
Owen, George T., Comdr., USN
Shapley, Alan, Maj., USMC
Navy and Marine Corps Medal
Day, Francis D., Chief Watertender, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
Schmitt, Aloysius H., Shipfitter first class, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
Wright, Paul R., Chief Watertender, USNR, casualty of USS Oklahoma
Last edited:
Unclebaldrick
Well-Known Member
The declaration of war by the Soviet Union was prearranged. Yes, it was a very significant factor as the Soviets had not yet been at war with Japan and that elements of the Japanese government were hoping to negotiate a conditional surrender with the Allies through Soviet diplomatic channels. The actual Soviet invasion was not as much of a factor as the diplomatic aspects of it.
It wasn't just a land grab though. The Tehran Conference set down the principle of Soviet war with Japan within 3 months of the Germany defeat.
Last edited: