High PH signs, symptoms and correcting...Pictorial!! A must read for newb'z

[AllenHaze]

Time is money Sip, you know that. My plants recovered in less then 24 hours of me adjusting for cooler temperatures. If you have ever picked fiddle heads you are familiar with the early spring time discoloration that shows up when daylight hours are still pretty short and daytime temps are warmer then the cooler nights (Color change due to Carotenoid or Anthocyanin I presume). I did not flush because as you recall you suggested I flush with pH 5.5 water. I'm using FFOF so I can't imagine that with no adulterations I would be asked to flush with an acidic solution- that I might add- would fall below my desired soil pH of 5.8 and no more then 6.8. I understand your logic of flushing with water that is more acidic then your desired pH when your soil is more alkaline. I don't understand your logic of how my soil would get to above 7 (even a dead 7 is acceptable) without showing any clear symptoms while being subjected to the same soil and ambient environmental conditions as all the other plants in the grow area. I'm not sure where any of your plants look like mine. I'd have to see a clear image of what your trying to show me. Having droopy leaves immediately after a heavy watering is more common then you think. If you've ever seen your outdoor girls after a heavy rainstorm I'm sure you understand my point. I've personally seen plants do both; perk upright after getting their water or get a little droopy, it depends on how much they get. I know of a few guys who have been growing for years but don't ever try anything new so their area of expertise is very, very limited. You can grow a long time and still not learn a thing - especially if you're not trying to. Nice grow op btw.

 

[Jack Harer]

In the month I have been on roll it up, I have read countless threads of plant problems, dark green leaves drooping, claw like looking, slower growth and purple stems to name a few. High ph is problem for many growers including my self.

Here are a few plants that are healthy, growing fast hell, and the ph is right around 6.5-6.8 range.
View attachment 2930066View attachment 2930067View attachment 2930068

I selected a few plants that I dont really like to do this experiment on. Here are the pics of the root systems before the experiment.
View attachment 2930071View attachment 2930072View attachment 2930075 They are healthy, white and very fast growing, this is after 4-5 days after my second round of transplanting.

This is the water I flushed through the plants. It was the highest possible ph I could get. Above 8.5 would be my guess.
View attachment 2930076

With-in 12 hrs of flushing with 8.5 water the plants started showing symptoms, drooping, claw looking leaves, dark green and almost a 3d look to the leaf surface. There are some leaves that curl and twist as the soil is now toxic to them.
View attachment 2930077View attachment 2930078View attachment 2930079View attachment 2930080View attachment 2930081

Ph problems are best diagnosed with-in 24 hrs of the first symptoms. After 48 hrs the ph continues to lock out nutes and makes it almost impossible to tell what the hell is wrong with your plants.

If the ph remains high for more than 48 hrs it will start yellowing the plants and make them look like death( note if the ph is around 7.5 the yellowing will take much longer and the dark green leaves and drooping will be the main symptoms) When the ph is above 8 it locks out many macro and micro nutes at the same time which causes the yellowing, brown dead spots, rust color spots, purple leaves and stems and many more symptoms. It becomes very hard to tell what is wrong because your plant will show 3 maybe even 4 deficiencies at the same time. It can be confused with cold temps, and over fertilizing when the real problem is ph.
View attachment 2930086View attachment 2930087

To correct a high ph, I will be flushing with 4.0 water. Lemon juice is also very acidic which will lower the ph.
View attachment 2930085

After about 1 gallon of 4.0 water the ph starts to drop (note, these are large dunkin donut cups that hold about 4 cups of soil) If you have a large pot, It will take a lot of water to drop the ph to a 6.5-6.8 range.
View attachment 2930088

After about 2 gallons of flushing with 4.0 water the ph is down to an acceptable range.
View attachment 2930089

I hope a lot of people who have plant troubles read this, and put it to good use. Feel free to ask questions or mention anything I missed. Merry growing!!


Not sure if the pics are working, if not let me know please

Nice project, Nice pics, but your research methodology is flawed. First and foremost, in soil, the most important pH value is that of the soil itself, NOT the value of any liquid going in or coming out. That's the entire point that seems to evade everyone. If the pH of the soil is set at 6.8 (or thereabouts) at the onset, nothing you pour into it is gonna change that value. The pH of whatever goes in will be brought to the pH of the soil itself as it sits in contact with the soil, not vice versa. pH is generally set in soil with Lime (or some form of calcium carbonate) which is a very stable buffer. In order to change the pH value of the soil, all of the lime or Calcium carbonate would have to be dissolved out.
Lowering the pH by using an acid like lemon juice or vinegar will only temporarily drop pH, it will very quickly rebound to that of the surrounding soil. It won't work folks! Unless you are able to overcome the buffering capacity of the lime with a stronger BUFFERING AGENT, you will not permanently change the pH of the soil. The soil will however change the pH of whatever comes into contact with it. This is why pH in soil is so stable that pH becomes a non-issue in soil.
Did you run a control model by ascertaining the pH value of the soil prior to beginning this? And 12 hrs after "flushing" the soil with pH 8.5 water, did you again check the value of the soil to see if it had changed? Or did you merely assume that running alkaline water through would do the trick? Same questions about the running of the acidic water through the soil.
And how did you determine the pH of the soil? By checking the run-off? Not a valid measurement. Run off is just that....water that has just run through the soil. pH change isn't instantaneous. It changes slowly as the retained water in the soil sits in contact with the soil. Water that has just run through the soil wasn't there long enough to be affected much.
Also, problems in soil (or improvements) are not gonna be readily evident within hours. Another reason why soil is more forgiving. Nutrient uptake, or a lack thereof, is a much slower process in soil than it is in hydroponics, so things happen at a much slower rate. Usually over a period of a couple of days, not a matter of hours.
I am not gonna sit here and ridicule this, it was a good effort and your mind was in the right place, but this only goes to illustrate exactly how misunderstood the concept of pH and it's relationship to nutrient uptake really is. The entire concept of pH, and how it affects everything around us, is a BITCH to get your mind around.
There is a definite protocol to any research. Eliminate or at least identify any variables, set a control model, test, compare to control model, re-test and see if your results repeat.

 

[AllenHaze]

I hope I'm not stepping out of bounds by adding that, "Science is meant to advance by means of erecting hypothesis and then attempting to disprove said hypothesis." I hope I can speak for everyone when I say that we're not bashing you. It takes a certain kind of person to be interested enough to set up any experiment and it would be difficult not to appreciate your time and effort that went into this. Ask around first, then get a solid consensus regarding the facts of your theory and go from there. Might I suggest prolonging the experiment to maybe 14 days or so at least? It is a good point about the males and using them for experiments. I'm actually in the process myself of trying something right now involving an alternative to traditional topping methods. It is actually looking very promising right now but it is too early too tell as there may be potential long term effects of my method that may or may not cause pathology . lol.

 

[sativa indica pits]

Nice project, Nice pics, but your research methodology is flawed. First and foremost, in soil, the most important pH value is that of the soil itself, NOT the value of any liquid going in or coming out. That's the entire point that seems to evade everyone. If the pH of the soil is set at 6.8 (or thereabouts) at the onset, nothing you pour into it is gonna change that value. The pH of whatever goes in will be brought to the pH of the soil itself as it sits in contact with the soil, not vice versa. pH is generally set in soil with Lime (or some form of calcium carbonate) which is a very stable buffer. In order to change the pH value of the soil, all of the lime or Calcium carbonate would have to be dissolved out.
Lowering the pH by using an acid like lemon juice or vinegar will only temporarily drop pH, it will very quickly rebound to that of the surrounding soil. It won't work folks! Unless you are able to overcome the buffering capacity of the lime with a stronger BUFFERING AGENT, you will not permanently change the pH of the soil. The soil will however change the pH of whatever comes into contact with it. This is why pH in soil is so stable that pH becomes a non-issue in soil.
Did you run a control model by ascertaining the pH value of the soil prior to beginning this? And 12 hrs after "flushing" the soil with pH 8.5 water, did you again check the value of the soil to see if it had changed? Or did you merely assume that running alkaline water through would do the trick? Same questions about the running of the acidic water through the soil.
And how did you determine the pH of the soil? By checking the run-off? Not a valid measurement. Run off is just that....water that has just run through the soil. pH change isn't instantaneous. It changes slowly as the retained water in the soil sits in contact with the soil. Water that has just run through the soil wasn't there long enough to be affected much.
Also, problems in soil (or improvements) are not gonna be readily evident within hours. Another reason why soil is more forgiving. Nutrient uptake, or a lack thereof, is a much slower process in soil than it is in hydroponics, so things happen at a much slower rate. Usually over a period of a couple of days, not a matter of hours.
I am not gonna sit here and ridicule this, it was a good effort and your mind was in the right place, but this only goes to illustrate exactly how misunderstood the concept of pH and it's relationship to nutrient uptake really is. The entire concept of pH, and how it affects everything around us, is a BITCH to get your mind around.
There is a definite protocol to any research. Eliminate or at least identify any variables, set a control model, test, compare to control model, re-test and see if your results repeat.

I must remind everyone, this experiment was done on 100% healthy lush green grow plants when there was nothing wrong with then what so ever. The reason I did this simple experiment was to show case the effects of a high ph. Let me post some more pics to what healthy plants look like, I have plenty,,,, my soil is not fukt up in any way... I dont not have ongoing problems, Once I notice a droopy plant... I fix it. And yes it does take days, as in my post of the same plants 3 days later, still a little fukt up....but now its been 6 days and I will post the pics shortly.

You can clearly see the plants 12 hrs after showing signs of a high ph, This is how my plants work, And I will continue to grow them like this. If I water my plants with wood ash every time I water, most certianly the ph of the soil will raise, same with lemon juice, if I water with it every day, the ph will drop out of sight. A flush will change the ph of the soil. Thought I already proved this, but it takes alot of years of growing alot of plants to really figure out what works and what doesnt.

The only thing I was trying to do here was help the 20-30 people who post on this forum everyday of droopy plant, dark green growth, slow growing,,,, all the tell tale signs of a high ph.

 

[Jack Harer]

Sorry to bother ya!

 

[sativa indica pits]

lol... ya didnt bother me man. im just trying to help other growers who deff. need it. my grow is in top shape, im not the one asking for help. I hate to see all those plants suffering when it really easy to fix, thats all. Thanks for the input. Looks like the all the plants i see pics of.... need all the input they can handle.

 

[sativa indica pits]

plants totally recovered 6 days later, ph back to normal, lush green growth, fast growing, leaf profile normal, no twisting, curling, drooping or purple. I took a group shot so none of them would feel singled out and picked on.. lol but they love life i must say.


Here are a few of my autos's, They are about 1 month old, some faster than others, but all are starting to flower, and stink the neighborhood up!!, Ive been approached by two neighbors and they asked me what that skunky, delicious smell was. I hate to rub it in but I told them Im a care giver and how to obtain their medical mj. paperwork.

 

[solitarygrower]

@JackHarer: Nice try, but people are obsessed with their water-PH even when they grow in compost.

 

[sativa indica pits]

@JackHarer: Nice try, but people are obsessed with their water-PH even when they grow in compost.

very true, compost ph can have a ph of over 8.0 and under 6.0....many types of compost out there. chicken shit compost= 5.5 cow shit compost=8.5 there has to be a balance somewhere....??? no???

 

[AllenHaze]

@JackHarer: Nice try, but people are obsessed with their water-PH even when they grow in compost.

I believe that was the point JH was trying to make. That people waste too much time fretting over water pH when it is the soil pH that is most stable and thenceforth a better foundation to work from. Water pH is much more sensitive to change, ie: a quarter tsp of lemon juice will bring a gallon of water from pH 7.5 to pH 6.5. That is a pretty big difference considering you'd need at least a half cup of dolomite lime for the same volume of soil to buffer @ 7.0 If you are using organic soil, the dominant organisms will buffer the soil to their ideal pH range. Hence using ACT to replenish said microbial population. On another note Sip, what soil you using? Just curious. Plants are looking lush!

 

[yeah B U B B A]

oh kay.., i just checked my ph throughout the soil/roots and my highest reading came out to 9.0.. i flushed it earlier around 11:30am my time.. i am trying to be an organic grower.. but i am nervous about flushing it again because my roots is not like your roots according to the pics (i wish they was, which im trying to get to) and i do not want them to get rotten and die.. i do want the best way without adding more water., but if i have too., i do not have another choice because i do have to bring my ph down.. i hate to say this but it have to be done quick because its showing a change like every 2 hours that it is under the light and i have 2 1/2 hrs left on the light..

soooo.., my questions now are:
if i had to flush it again using water having that much time left., when (while the light is on or before it shut off) and how much water i have to use to get it down (or just use my meter until its lower).?
what home products can i use without using soo much water soo that my roots wouldnt rot (stores are closed).?
will baken soda bring my ph down if i was to use the correct amount.?

*i have to bring it down by tonight or i will be fighting for this plant for the next few days and i do not want to fight its not in my nature

thank you

 

[sativa indica pits]

just flush 4-5 times pot size. so if its a 5 gal bucket.... 20-25 gallons. Some say to slowly adjust ph, I do it within a few hrs. the longer I wait the worst they get. I wouldnt worry about the light cycle right now... if the plant dont make it ...your lights will be off for a while. keep flushing with 4.0 water untill the ph run off reads around 6.0-7.0 this will get you in the right range and you plant will recover by next week. never tryed baking soda...isnt that high? lemon juice? ph down.... check herehttps://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

 

[yeah B U B B A]

thats bruh i really do appreciate it.. im going to do it right now even though the light is now off..and hope for the best..!!

 

[Jack Harer]

oh kay.., i just checked my ph throughout the soil/roots and my highest reading came out to 9.0.. i flushed it earlier around 11:30am my time.. i am trying to be an organic grower.. but i am nervous about flushing it again because my roots is not like your roots according to the pics (i wish they was, which im trying to get to) and i do not want them to get rotten and die.. i do want the best way without adding more water., but if i have too., i do not have another choice because i do have to bring my ph down.. i hate to say this but it have to be done quick because its showing a change like every 2 hours that it is under the light and i have 2 1/2 hrs left on the light..

soooo.., my questions now are:
if i had to flush it again using water having that much time left., when (while the light is on or before it shut off) and how much water i have to use to get it down (or just use my meter until its lower).?
what home products can i use without using soo much water soo that my roots wouldnt rot (stores are closed).?
will baken soda bring my ph down if i was to use the correct amount.?

*i have to bring it down by tonight or i will be fighting for this plant for the next few days and i do not want to fight its not in my nature

thank you

Sativa Indica Pits, sorry for this breif hi-jack, but I gotta ask dude a question. YeahBUBBA, just how did you check the pH of your soil thru the soil/roots? Did you make your own soil or is that store bought? If you made your own, and WAY overdid the lime, yes I can see a pH of 9. And if the pH of the SOIL itself is really 9.0 you gotta replant!! I have NEVER seen pH that high in soil. You gotta be checking the run-off. As long as the pH of the soil itself is between 6.5 and 7, the soil will adjust the pH of whatever you put into it. Don't worry about pH of your water or the run-off. It's the actual ph of the soil that you're to be concerned with.
Also, over-watering (root rot, etc) is not about how much water you put into a container, it's about how long the roots remain wet. You can run lake michigan through your soil without problems as long as the roots are allowed to dry out before you water again.

And DO NOT INTERRUPT THE DARK CYCLE!!! You WILL fuck things up and get hermies, I can promise you that!!!

 

[Alienwidow]

I'd like to understand your experiment a little clearer. How long did your experiment last and how long did you flush them? Are you sure these results are not due to over watering? Where are your sources citing a high pH causes drooping to begin with? I can understand that after flushing with a high pH water for an extended period of time the plant would show clear signs of over-watering however stating as fact that this is because of the high pH of the water is mistaking correlation with causation. It takes a little while for soil pH to change hence the inquiry as to the length of your experiment. I'm curious because you tried saying the same thing on a post I put up earlier about one of my plants leaves curling that were growing in FFOF. Due to the organic matter breaking down though I've yet to hear anything about them becoming increasingly alkaline over time. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/760997-droopy-leaves-brown-chlorosis-new.html This is a link to the problem right here if you recall.
Here is another link to when I figured out the problem of the discoloration https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/761902-help-rep-5.html which was not due to pH problems. If I had followed your advice at the time to "flush with pH 5.5 water" I could very well have stressed my plant further and lost potential medicine. Don't get me wrong, no disrespect here man. I appreciate the awareness that you're trying to spread I'm just not all for giving advice that isn't actually factual and it seems there may be some fact mixed in with fiction here. You could really hurt someones plant if you're not careful. First two photos are before and afters of the plant you attempted to diagnose after I transplanted into 3/5 OF and HF pH 6.5 - 6.6 with nothing else added. The second photo I have is of the others that are all in the same mix as the first, with no problems. The third and fourth are photos of another plant that showed the same browning at new growth and it's recovery less than 24 hours after I corrected for cooler soil temperatures resulting from the "Thermic cooling effect of sweating." Take it easy and I hope to hear back from you. Thanks.
View attachment 2932139View attachment 2932142View attachment 2932138 View attachment 2932140View attachment 2932141

the highlighted text is exactly what i said to this guy when he randomly posted pictures of three overwatered plants. I think this whole threads junk and just some over watering. Theres no way im going to believe that running 8.5 ph water through a plants root zone once is going to cause the plant to droop due to nutrient lock out. This is common sense and im obviously not the only one that sees through this B.S.

 

[Alexander Supertramp]

Thinking that you can majorly alter a soils pH by simply running a certain pHed water through it is foolish.

 

[dubcoastOGs]

Thinking that you can majorly alter a soils pH by simply running a certain pHed water through it is foolish.

haha, seriously though. Your soil is just laughing at you.

 

[sativa indica pits]

thank you for telling me my pics are a lie. did you even take the time and look at the pics?

What you dont seem to understand is I ran almost straight ph up thru the soil. not just some sissy water, Dip your finger in, lol You might understand the ph probably did change a bit considering it eats the skin off your finger.... OK OK it was watered down by 10% tho.

So let me get this right..... I dump almost pure ph up thru my soil and it doesnt change the ph of the soil? come on guys. think about what your trying to tell me.

And did you see the pics, you have to click on each link because I originally posted it in general growing and copied and pasted it here.... bet you read it, an posted some crazy shit like ph will never change in soil. yea it will.

Have you ever heard of wood ash. give that to your plants every watering, see what happens. your plants will not like you,,, But wood ash in small amounts acts like lime stabilizes ph and gives your plants a bunch of micro nutes, almost every heavy metal is in wood ash. Nickel, copper, iron, aluminum, zinc, boron, calcium, magnesium, and a few others, read this http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/Management/pdfs/a3635.pdf

please read the op again and look at every pic, before posting nonsense in my thread, Trying to help people here, please do the same. thanks for the bump tho!!

 

[sativa indica pits]

and @ jack herer Im really at a loss for words here. It sounds like you have a good idea what your talking about when it comes to growing. I cant seem to grasp you have never had one problem with ph? None of the plants you have ever grown in soil have had lock out due to ph issues? I have come to learn a very important balance of ph fert and water is needed to achieve lush fast growing plants. Throw one of those off balance and your plants go down the shitter. I know run=off is not the true reading of the soil but it definitely will give you the range in which the soil is.

And if my methods are off or inclusive, why do my plants tell me they are right on? If I was wrong about what ever I post I would not have a room full of badass plants to show you would I?

If I were wrong, my plants would suck, be suffering from all types of problems, I must remind everyone here, Im not the one posting "what is wrong with my plant" Im not asking for help like so many other growers out there. I really encourage you to repeat my experiment. Take 3-4 healthy good looking plants. flush them with almost pure ph up and see what a high ph does to them, leave them for a few days, watch the lock out reap havoc on them, then bring them back to normal and back to there lush fast growing self. I know you will have a better respect for ph in soil after you watch first hand, your plants dying right in front of you, its really a terrible thing to watch.

And @ those who want sources,,,https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688 I have read this entire thing over and over, way down bottom there is a small section where it describes high ph and even has a pic with it!!!!

another placehttp://store.kobobooks.com/en-us/books/Title/9lGpwpDRN0mu_-j0IIJkLw?MixID=9lGpwpDRN0mu_-j0IIJkLw&PageNumber=1&utm_source=productlistings&utm_medium=g&utm_campaign=title-The+Cannabis+Grow+Bible&gclid=CNOzrK6a1rsCFQlgMgodNUQAew

http://books.google.com/books/about/Marijuana_grower_s_guide.html?id=ChU-TBCJXUAC
All 3 of posted sources will explain high ph and what it does to your plant and how important it is in soil or hydro

 

[sativa indica pits]

I just wanted to brag a bit more and show everyone my kick ass plants!! another 3-4 weeks and most of the regular will be going into flower!!!
then you guys can watch them turn into buds like my avatar!! fun fun

Here are some of the 75 auto flower's, I didnt really feel like turning off the hps to take pics so they are a bit orange, but there are buds everywhere!! Its going to take a while to trim all that!!! yea!!! My patients will be very happy and thankfull I know what im doing!!