What exactly are conservatives conserving?

[tokeprep]

i do not believe actual charities should be taxed at all, but the rules for what is and is not a charity should be tight as fuck.
if your "charity's" expenses hit more than a specified level (say 30%, just off the top of my head...) then youre a business, even if you dont have shareholders or dividends. somebody is gettin paid, and thats not charity thats business.
if your "charity" sends even one thin dime outside the US then youre not a charity, youre an exporter. once you take that money or those goods to kuala lumpur or ethiopia, who can say what you did with it there?
if your "charity" uses it's organization to flog for your religion, thats not charity, thats evangelism.

charitable donations should NOT be a write off, since then it's really not charity or even a donation, but rather a tax stratagem.

We can agree on that. Warren Buffett will never pay a penny of tax on most of the tens of billions of dollars of capital gain accumulated in his Berkshire Hathaway stock because the money is going to the Gates Foundation. It makes no sense to force ordinary people who barely make any money, relatively, to pay huge tax bills when Warren Buffett pays nothing.

but what you build WAS taxed, all your life, and when you leave it to your heirs, that should not be taxed (no matter how much the estate is worth) since your heirs will either continue to make it work, shaking your moneymaker long after you have gone to your tomb, or they will piss it away, letting somebody else's moneymaker shake, who may or may not leave heirs who are smarter than paris hilton (a high school dropout, seriously, the bitch is DUMB)

Pissing away money is economically inefficient. And if they send the money out of the country, what good does it do the country? Spending millions on Italian marble or cars or Paris real estate doesn't do much here.

 

[Dr Kynes]

We can agree on that. Warren Buffett will never pay a penny of tax on most of the tens of billions of dollars of capital gain accumulated in his Berkshire Hathaway stock because the money is going to the Gates Foundation. It makes no sense to force ordinary people who barely make any money, relatively, to pay huge tax bills when Warren Buffett pays nothing.

but buffet paid taxes all his life, and all the people who worked for him paid taxes, and all the people who worked for them paid taxes, and all the people who provided the shit those people needed to survive paid taxes...

when is it enough?

fair would be either taxing people and NOT businesses, or taxing businesses and NOT people (since businesses will always pass those taxes to the people who buy their shit anyhow)
right now they do both, so they tax the people twice. (and more)

Pissing away money is economically inefficient. And if they send the money out of the country, what good does it do the country? Spending millions on Italian marble or cars or Paris real estate doesn't do much here.

but but but... aggregate demand... global economy... moar aggregate demand...

economics is a dirty ineffcient business at the best of times, when government sticks it's nose in, shit just gets all fucked up.

 

[tokeprep]

but buffet paid taxes all his life, and all the people who worked for him paid taxes, and all the people who worked for them paid taxes, and all the people who provided the shit those people needed to survive paid taxes...

No, he didn't. He received a nominal salary; almost all of his wealth is in the form of Berkshire Hathaway stock, which has never been taxed. Ever. It's not just Buffett, it's every billionaire who donates their stock to charity instead of ever selling it. The result is hundreds of billions of dollars in accumulated wealth totally escaping tax.

This isn't about everyone else or about Berkshire, it's about Buffett. Buffett runs around telling everyone else they should pay more tax, and yet he will barely pay anything.

when is it enough?

fair would be either taxing people and NOT businesses, or taxing businesses and NOT people (since businesses will always pass those taxes to the people who buy their shit anyhow)
right now they do both, so they tax the people twice. (and more)

Yeah, I say tax people at the end, when they don't need the money anymore. Makes perfect sense to me.

but but but... aggregate demand... global economy... moar aggregate demand...

economics is a dirty ineffcient business at the best of times, when government sticks it's nose in, shit just gets all fucked up.

My goal is to unlock wealth that is inefficiently locked up and to move undervalued assets owned by people who have no attachment to them and no need to sell them to higher valuing users, all relatively quickly. Your saying wait a few generations deprives hundreds of millions of people of additional prosperity that can be gained instead in the near future.

 

[abandonconflict]

Why is it conservatives try the same things over and over, regardless of the outcome? Isn't that called insanity?

New ideas are for commies.

 

[Dr Kynes]

No, he didn't. He received a nominal salary; almost all of his wealth is in the form of Berkshire Hathaway stock, which has never been taxed. Ever. It's not just Buffett, it's every billionaire who donates their stock to charity instead of ever selling it. The result is hundreds of billions of dollars in accumulated wealth totally escaping tax.

This isn't about everyone else or about Berkshire, it's about Buffett. Buffett runs around telling everyone else they should pay more tax, and yet he will barely pay anything.

you cant buy bread or cheese with stock certificates.

his stock options ARE taxed when he sells them. transactions and commerce are taxed, not "standing wealth". a pasture full of beef cattle is tax free until you sell em.

Yeah, I say tax people at the end, when they don't need the money anymore. Makes perfect sense to me.

so youre a grave robber.

My goal is to unlock wealth that is inefficiently locked up and to move undervalued assets owned by people who have no attachment to them and no need to sell them to higher valuing users, all relatively quickly. Your saying wait a few generations deprives hundreds of millions of people of additional prosperity that can be gained instead in the near future.

Protip: it's NOT your wealth

if i choose to keep my money in a coffee can buried under the porch, thats MY choice if i want to buy gold silver or land, thats MY choice, if i want to spend every dime as soon as i get it thats MY choice

whether you think my choices are efficient or not is irrelevant.

you have swung from econo-loon leftism to confsicatory taxation leftism in a startling short time frame.

but then i guess thats what happens when you listen to dipshit "economists" who believe the economy runs on magic moneydust, and 300% inflation in 30 years is the bomb ass plan.

 

[BigNBushy]

he's also an admitted white supremacist, in case you missed that part.

I guess living in snowy white Oregon it's hard to see.

He and I live in a place where it is as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[BigNBushy]

I'm not writing 100 pages of rules here. My goal, recall, is to eliminate most other taxes. That would have vast economic benefits.

I wouldn't just target family wealth but charities too. Tens of billions of never taxed dollars are thrown into the hands of charities every year and then forever idled, save the pittance they have to spend to keep their tax free status. In both cases there are significant economic inefficiencies involved affecting a staggering portion of the economy.

You need to look into the fair tax then. Although a retail sales tax, it contains mechanisms to be progressive, the poor are not taxed.

All other taxes are eliminated.

Billionaires spend plenty of money, the goods and services they buy would be taxed, as would the black market.

 

[ChesusRice]

You need to look into the fair tax then. Although a retail sales tax, it contains mechanisms to be progressive, the poor are not taxed.

All other taxes are eliminated.

Billionaires spend plenty of money, the goods and services they buy would be taxed, as would the black market.

Fair tax, Flat tax
Might as well call them bullshit tax. They shift the burden of taxation to the middle class

Please tell me which one of these taxes tax capital gains?

 

[Dr Kynes]

You need to look into the fair tax then. Although a retail sales tax, it contains mechanisms to be progressive, the poor are not taxed.

All other taxes are eliminated.

Billionaires spend plenty of money, the goods and services they buy would be taxed, as would the black market.

sales taxes dont the black market.

income taxes dont tax the black market.

capital gains taxes dont tax the black market.

corporate taxes dont tax the black market.

stamps taxes dont tax the black market.

excise taxes dont tax the black market.

only a capitation taxes the black market, and those are unconstitutional.

just because some dipshit told you his crazy scheme is the panacea, doesnt make his scheme less crazy, nor does it solve the problems he claims it does, because he is crazy, and his scheme is the product of a crazy person.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Fair tax, Flat tax
Might as well call them bullshit tax. They shift the burden of taxation to the middle class

Please tell me which one of these taxes tax capital gains?

and progressive taxes are armed robbery.

capital gains taxes are redundant, a product of the arcane definition of "income" used by the IRS to justify their taxation of labour, sweat and work.

the "middle class" SHOULD be paying significant taxes, as should the wealthy, a flat tax with a substantial personal deduction and NO other deductions would be a fine choice but only if they stop taxing coprorations, since YOU pay the corporate taxes, as well as your own, or JUST a tax on profits, (which MUST be flat with no deductions beyond actual expenses) but the current scheme is the most regressive tax ever devised.

 

[ChesusRice]

and progressive taxes are armed robbery.

capital gains taxes are redundant, a product of the arcane definition of "income" used by the IRS to justify their taxation of labour, sweat and work.

the "middle class" SHOULD be paying significant taxes, as should the wealthy, a flat tax with a substantial personal deduction and NO other deductions would be a fine choice but only if they stop taxing coprorations, since YOU pay the corporate taxes, as well as your own, or JUST a tax on profits, (which MUST be flat with no deductions beyond actual expenses) but the current scheme is the most regressive tax ever devised.

.

Name one flat tax scamnario that taxes capital gains

Also keep in mind Mitt Romney hasnt drawn a paycheck in years

 

[BigNBushy]

Fair tax, Flat tax
Might as well call them bullshit tax. They shift the burden of taxation to the middle class

Please tell me which one of these taxes tax capital gains?

Well sir, neither. What is your problem with capital gains? Investments are the engine of economic growth.

Instead, the fair tax taxes money spent above the poverty level.

You'll whine about savings... There is no such thing as savings, because all savings are is deferred spending. Eventually the money will be spent, and when it is, it is taxed.

@ dr k...

When I said it taxed the black market, I should have said it taxes those who make their living in the black market. Drug dealers sell drugs, keep money, IRS gets nothing. Under the fair tax, their shiney 22 inch rims get taxed, where they don't currently.

 

[beenthere]

.

Name one flat tax scamnario that taxes capital gains

Also keep in mind Mitt Romney hasnt drawn a paycheck in years

What is it about entrepreneurs you hate?
Do you not make enough money to invest or do you choose to spend your money on things like Harleys instead, you do understand that the ammount you paid for those motorcycles could have went towards an investment, that investment could also be taxed one day as capital gains.

Why is the way you choose to spend your money different than anyone elses?

 

[ChesusRice]

Well sir, neither. What is your problem with capital gains? Investments are the engine of economic growth.

.

Because the majority of income the very rich get is capital gains and the reason I pay ~24% of my income in taxes and Mitt Romney only pays ~13% is becuase most of his income is derived from capital gains not a paycheck

Flat tax scamnarios would reduce that burden to 0% on capital gains

Guess who that shortfall in tax revenue will fall on?

Me

 

[beenthere]

Because the majority of income the very rich get is capital gains and the reason I pay ~24% of my income in taxes and Mitt Romney only pays ~13% is becuase most of his income is derived from capital gains not a paycheck

Flat tax scamnarios would reduce that burden to 0% on capital gains

Guess who that shortfall in tax revenue will fall on?

Me

Cheezy, unless you make over $200k a year, I'm going to call BS on you paying 24% in federal income taxes.

 

[ChesusRice]

Cheezy, unless you make over $200k a year, I'm going to call BS on you paying 24% in federal income taxes.

http://individual.troweprice.com/public/Retail/Planning-&-Research/Tax-Planning/Prepare-Your-Taxes/Tax-Rate-Schedules

2013 IRS Tax Rate Schedule
Tax Rate	Single Filers	Married and Filing Jointly or Qualifying Widow(er)	Married and Filing Separately	Head of Household
10%	$0 - $8,925	$0 - $17,850	$0 - $8,925	$0 - $12,750
15%	$8,926 - $36,250	$17,851 - $72,500	$8,926 - $36,250	$12,751 - $48,600
25%	$36,251 - $87,850	$72,501 - $146,400	$36,251 - $73,200	$48,601 - $125,450
28%	$87,851 - $183,250	$146,401 - $223,050	$73,201 - $111,525	$125,451 - $203,150
33%	$183,251 - $398,351	$223,051 - $398,351	$111,526 - $199,175	$203,151 - $398,350
35%	$398,351 - $400,000	$398,351 - $450,000	$199,176 - $225,000	$398,351 - $425,000
39.6%	$400,001 and above	$450,001 and above	$225,001 and above	$425,001 and above

 

[beenthere]

http://individual.troweprice.com/public/Retail/Planning-&-Research/Tax-Planning/Prepare-Your-Taxes/Tax-Rate-Schedules

2013 IRS Tax Rate Schedule
Tax Rate	Single Filers	Married and Filing Jointly or Qualifying Widow(er)	Married and Filing Separately	Head of Household
10%	$0 - $8,925	$0 - $17,850	$0 - $8,925	$0 - $12,750
15%	$8,926 - $36,250	$17,851 - $72,500	$8,926 - $36,250	$12,751 - $48,600
25%	$36,251 - $87,850	$72,501 - $146,400	$36,251 - $73,200	$48,601 - $125,450
28%	$87,851 - $183,250	$146,401 - $223,050	$73,201 - $111,525	$125,451 - $203,150
33%	$183,251 - $398,351	$223,051 - $398,351	$111,526 - $199,175	$203,151 - $398,350
35%	$398,351 - $400,000	$398,351 - $450,000	$199,176 - $225,000	$398,351 - $425,000
39.6%	$400,001 and above	$450,001 and above	$225,001 and above	$425,001 and above

I think I went through this with your buddy UncleBuck.

You're posting marginal tax rate brackets.
That is NOT the percentage you pay each year in federal taxes income taxes.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you make around $40-$50k a year, which means you probably pay around 10-11%

 

[ChesusRice]

I think I went through this with your buddy UncleBuck.

You're posting marginal tax rate brackets.
That is NOT the percentage you pay each year in federal taxes income taxes.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you make around $40-$50k a year, which means you probably pay around 10-11%

Our income is well over a 100k a year bro

 

[Dr Kynes]

.

Name one flat tax scamnario that taxes capital gains

Also keep in mind Mitt Romney hasnt drawn a paycheck in years

name one progressive tax that doesnt have a million loopholes t

Also keep in mind those who have enough to blow on lawyers and accountants can dodge every penny of the current tax.

Also keep in mind i dont care if mitt romney draws a paycheck, lives on his dividends, or spanks al gore's ass with a 20" double ended dildo while jerking off on a midget in a clown costume

Also keep in mind, you are simply evading the issue and splattering red herrings in every direction.

Also keep in mind that i am fully aware you have no fucking clue how any business works, how economics really works or why the minimum wage is a sham, and just makes the poverty level numerically larger, making the hole the poor have to climb out of, that much deeper.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Well sir, neither. What is your problem with capital gains? Investments are the engine of economic growth.

Instead, the fair tax taxes money spent above the poverty level.

You'll whine about savings... There is no such thing as savings, because all savings are is deferred spending. Eventually the money will be spent, and when it is, it is taxed.

@ dr k...

When I said it taxed the black market, I should have said it taxes those who make their living in the black market. Drug dealers sell drugs, keep money, IRS gets nothing. Under the fair tax, their shiney 22 inch rims get taxed, where they don't currently.

yes, Dubs ARE taxed.

the company that made em was taxed, the guy who actually manufactured them on the assembly line was taxed, the trucker who takes them across the country to your local "Spinnahs, Bass N Dubs" Supah Fly Whip Pimpin establishment got taxed, the local franchise of Spinnah Bass N Dubs got taxed, the Fly Whip Pimpah himslef got taxed, and the dubs were subject to sales tax too. all that gets added to the cost of those dubs, and if the taxes werent there, homey prolly coulda dropped the cheddar for 28's