100+ dead in France

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
You keep spouting this faux scientific concept that people are "apex predators" and predatory nature of human kind.
But is it wrong? You pejorate it but bring no actual argument. Thank you for playing
Yet this is not the distinguishing characteristic of humanity. From your false premise, you go on and on about how weapons "make us civilized" and survival of the fittest as if life in the US is some sort of urban jungle where to live until the next day is a victory over evil doers and other humans who want to take your life.

While it's a fun fantasy to imagine us as some form of Kzin
No. Not Kzin[ti]. They have a pure carnivore ethos. We monkeyboys are so much more morally ... versatile.
you completely miss what science and physical and social anthropology
Fuck social anthropology right in the ... Kzin.
actually tell us about ourselves. The most successful species on this planet have one thing in common, a social gene for cooperation and the willingness to sacrifice for the group. This genetic predisposition for cooperation has been studied extensively in honey bees but is also present the most successful animals on the planet, ants. Mathematical models for behavior have shown quite clearly that animals who live cooperatively in communities that will rally to defend the community at the cost of individual lives are much more successful than analogous animals with the same abilities but do not cooperate. What other successful animals have this gene? Quite a few, but one of them are human.

I'm not going to argue your philosophy, which is based on some lone wolf model of behavior because it is based upon a false premise.
No. It is based on all of human history. We are pack hunters and that has marked our history from Willendorf to present day. I sense you are made unhappy by that, but again ... where am I wrong? Specifics and not general principles if you want to advance the argument.
The reality is that people do best when they cooperate with each other while having the freedom to act independently.
Agreed. But individuals may pursue a different calculus. At that point you have the unpleasant option of requiring cooperation. "And that is when the fight started."
And, actually, wolves don't survive well outside of a pack. When we cannot trust our neighbor, whether it be due to a form of threat or simply because they don't live by the same social mores as others, our ability to perform the two contradictory functions of cooperation and independence breaks down.

And so, your argument about guns as a civilizing force is ridiculous. Threatening people
The threat is specific to people who would want me or someone harm. I consider that sort of threat an essential ingredient in an ordered society consisting of individuals always seeling advantage.
or performing acts that cause fear only drive people into tighter knit and smaller groups. These groups may act against others out of fear, whether imagined or real. Civilized societies that successfully operate on large scales have well understood rules of behavior where people know what to expect from each other in specific situations. They also don't kill each other out of fear. People cooperate to produce more than they can by themselves. Cooperative behavior is fundamental to pre-industrial agriculture, which is the true foundation of civilization, not the gun.
A true foundation but not the only one. A similar argument can be mounted for religion as the cornerstone of civilization.
Whether we own guns or not, therefore is not relevant to civilization.
Now we get to the meat of it. I disagree at all levels. As long as we are not a Utopia of individuals willingly building a better society (my principal beef with Rob Roy and others who invoke a deus ex machina to make us suddenly want to play team) I disagree. The gun, or any level-One weapon, in the hands of the individual remains the Gold Standard of personal freedom and comparative safety.
Removing guns in a fragmented and fraught social situation won't make us more civilized, nor will seeding society with enough firepower to slaughter all members many times over. Removing fear and it's causes are the answers. Such as eliminate food and shelter insecurity. Remove barriers to social mobility -- let those with the most ability rise up and provide those with less ability a safety net where their dignity and security are maintained.

The reality is that, as outlined in the link belo, the US and the people of world on the whole are living in some of the safest and most peaceful times in history. It feels otherwise but that's just fake fear. So again, your perceived need to arm yourself in preparation for battle with other apex predators -- this testosterone driven rhetoric is too funny to me -- is due to cowardice and fearfulness.

"forsooth" LOL, who uses that word in everyday conversation? How funny

The World Is Not Falling Apart
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html
I imagine you would have advised me to buy securities in '90 as well. That is a massive fail of "trend line" extrapolation. It's the breaks in the trends that tend to fascinate students of history.[/quote]
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
So you're drawing a line in the sand in order to say that the known paradigm
Link to this known paradigm? You're telling me I'm flying in the face of fact. Provide this fact ...
is wrong because it doesn't pertain to you and that for me to disagree is to challenge that I know you better than you do. Mention of the word genetics does not serve to give the authority of verifiable science in this case, it only narrows your argument to phenotype. What you believe is of no consequence even if you're only talking about those of your tribal phenotype (race) because we're talking about the species and not just you or those of your phenotype. This is no less accurate even if you meant that you think everyone is xenophobic against those who do not share phenotypical traits and not only your phenotype. However, your premise, that your belief is based on what you believe regarding yourself, would suggest you're arguing according to your phenotype. This argument is easily destroyed by the fact that phenotype is known to be epigenetic. We're all Africans, unless you have forgotten. This will be touched upon again.

This is not only incorrect, but it is just an old fashioned appeal to culture. You speak of duties (behavior) in regard to controlling one's self (behavior) based on how one understands one's self (behavior) and yet call it nature. It is in our nature to seek sex. It is in our nature to seek food and water. The shatterpoint of this assertion is that you consider it to be a part of our nature to bash the weirdo, but this has never been normal behavior until modern times when societies had already become extremely unequal. In any indigenous or tribal culture, weirdos were treasured individuals. From transgenders to the deformed and even autistic, tribal groups throughout history have been well known to revere unique individuals with one exception.

White folks.
new concept to me ... please substantiate with something other than Social Anthropology. I don't consider that to be science.
The fact is, only one human phenotype is known to behave the way you describe. Yours. Who are the people that don't act like they're from this planet? Who are the people that believe they own the earth instead of the other way around? Who are the people that have used nuclear weapons to end a war that was already won? Who are the people that have committed genocide? Just because your people are evil doesn't mean all people are. A few other empires have sprung up after the European phenotype spread its influence which have to some extent copied those behaviors but not before and never on such a scale.
You grievously insult the Easter Islanders and the old Egyptians. They raised "white" solipsism to the point of reshaping the land under them. In the Easter Islanders' case, fatally.
 

see4

Well-Known Member
Did you see that documentary about how the bankers pulled a fast one on us in '09? I'd suggest starting there and also looking at the insurers. I admit my knowledge of law is almost nil. But I contend that there is a "corporatocracy" that is very successfully bending the legislative apparatus to its will.
I'm well aware of the thieves in blue collars who take residence in overpriced dwellings in concrete jungles. If Purge were real, they'd be top on my list.

I look at the voting material and I cannot identify a candidate, from dogcatcher to president, who will talk about the real underlying issues of legislative and judicial transparency. Or promise not to endorse a Sotomayor. I welcome your specific and detailed advice on how I can do that within the system.

I am not the only person who perceives/believes this. If the others like me are not represented by the system, I see the nation headed towards painful, messy revolution ... and most of those end much worse than the bad that bred them.
A democratic nation with 340,000,000+ citizens, we are bound to have disagreement. Our options are to live under a false democracy like China or live under a dictatorship "democracy" like Russia or live under hierarchal rule like Saudi Arabia or live in a true democracy, not a utopian society, because that is fairytale. That being said, we live in a comfortable democracy that was going ok for us up until the mid 90s when we lost the notion of civil discourse in political debate. We can likely agree which party started that horse race.

I am not the only person who perceives/believes this. If the others like me are not represented by the system, I see the nation headed towards painful, messy revolution ... and most of those end much worse than the bad that bred them..
That's the problem right there. Why can't we disagree but try to find common ground? Why do we have to disagree and immediately think revolution? Liberal and progressive people simply don't think this way. Today's conservatives seem to think uprising, anarchy and revolution is the answer to our problems. It's not.

I do have one suggestion, one that is technically feasible. It is Annie's idea (@curious2garden) and I have found no fatal flaw with it. Obviate the representatives. Vote all by direct plebiscite. The price of buying a rep and keeping him bought will have just become unmanageable. Remove the corruptible bottleneck. We have the technology now to make "representative government is SOOO 2nd millennium" a reality.

It'll be messy and scary but much less so than revolution. It will also force the corporations to lobby the people directly, and that can only make them "more honest". I'm curious what you think of the idea.
Direct plebiscite is a very interesting and technically plausible concept. I'd actually be in favor of that. It could actually be done at a local level as a proof of concept quite easily. Who would pay for the technical underpinnings of this new order? Would it be voting in by our current representatives?
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Link to this known paradigm... Social Anthropology. I don't consider that to be science.
This is the impasse. You dismiss science that flies in the face of your old fashioned cultural values regarding xenophobia being part of human nature.

It's actually pretty dumb and I expected more from you. Anthropology is the study of humans. There is no science on the study of human social behavior that is not SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY. If you don't think that is a science, you have lost all right to opine on the matter. You have just stated you do not believe it can be studied.

light weight...
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I'm well aware of the thieves in blue collars who take residence in overpriced dwellings in concrete jungles. If Purge were real, they'd be top on my list.



A democratic nation with 340,000,000+ citizens, we are bound to have disagreement. Our options are to live under a false democracy like China or live under a dictatorship "democracy" like Russia or live under hierarchal rule like Saudi Arabia or live in a true democracy, not a utopian society, because that is fairytale. That being said, we live in a comfortable democracy that was going ok for us up until the mid 90s when we lost the notion of civil discourse in political debate. We can likely agree which party started that horse race.



That's the problem right there. Why can't we disagree but try to find common ground?
I'd love to. For the common ground to be durable, we must both share it at a level which makes for consistent execution. [/quote] Why do we have to disagree and immediately think revolution? Liberal and progressive people simply don't think this way. Today's conservatives seem to think uprising, anarchy and revolution is the answer to our problems. It's not.[/quote] True liberals are appalled at the steady erosion of freedoms by the very machinery emplaced to protect them. Let's talk about that as the "start here" premise. Can we? If so, I believe we can have common ground.
Direct plebiscite is a very interesting and technically plausible concept. I'd actually be in favor of that. It could actually be done at a local level as a proof of concept quite easily. Who would pay for the technical underpinnings of this new order? Would it be voting in by our current representatives?
Excellent question. Short answer: I don't know.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
This is the impasse. You dismiss science that flies in the face of your old fashioned cultural values regarding xenophobia being part of human nature.

It's actually pretty dumb and I expected more from you. Anthropology is the study of humans. There is no science on the study of human social behavior that is not SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY. If you don't think that is a science, you have lost all right to opine on the matter.

light weight...
I dismiss no science. I dismiss a pseudoscience that has become the last refuge of Postmodern intellectual scoundrels. Science involves physical measurement. That sad truth marks us as Medievals. But I see the truth of it, and it inoculates me against utopian waste of effort.

Show me an objective science of human behavior. One without the endless statistics that are the other great refuge of subjective intellectual dishonesty. I doubt you will be able to bring that. (But I do not exclude the possibility. I am just as prone to intellectual cramp as the rest of us here.)

I do not admit defeat in this instance, your appeal to authority notwithstanding.

I'll still share my beer with you though.
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
"But I believe at this time that the Second was written with an even stricter criterion in mind: this is civic parity with the military. That is what the well-regulated militia is all about: free citizens who train with weapons that can stay and rout a formation of soldiers. You will likely disagree with me about that, but until someone can show me something from a more honest, less shockingly illiberal judicial thinker than Associate Justice Sonia Sotomayor ... I'll hold to this belief, and count anyone opposing it to either be not paying attention ... or having an undisclosed dog in the hunt."

Bro reading your rants I cant get past the faux intellectual tone (cringe worthy) coupled with the cave man grasp societal dynamics. In my view you're fortunate that these guys (see4, fogdog) don't straight ignore the juvenile bluster you post.


"You don't need to be a scientist to acknowledge the impulse." Ironic! from your posting the only requirements you seem to satisfy are, self important, myopic, capable of gas bagging on any topic.


"I admit my knowledge of law is almost nil." Odd, because for a second, I thought you were a second amendment scholar. Based on your posts your "knowledge" is more like the oafish fantasies of an isolated half wit.

"I am not the only person who perceives/believes this. If the others like me are not represented by the system, I see the nation headed towards painful, messy revolution ... and most of those end much worse than the bad that bred them." What??? The echo of your prepper bunker makes it sound like your broadcasting out your ass.

You bark out against sotomayor as if your talking about more than your rabid ignorance. Youre not.

Bro it's astonishing that you post these shit torrents as if you have even a single legit or original thought. You post as if youve never opened a book, attended a university or reflected on the thinking of those who refuted your primitive notions in ancient times.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I dismiss no science. I dismiss a pseudoscience that has become the last refuge of Postmodern intellectual scoundrels. Science involves physical measurement. That sad truth marks us as Medievals. But I see the truth of it, and it inoculates me against utopian waste of effort.

Show me an objective science of human behavior. One without the endless statistics that are the other great refuge of subjective intellectual dishonesty. I doubt you will be able to bring that. (But I do not exclude the possibility. I am just as prone to intellectual cramp as the rest of us here.)

I do not admit defeat in this instance, your appeal to authority notwithstanding.

I'll still share my beer with you though.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
"But I believe at this time that the Second was written with an even stricter criterion in mind: this is civic parity with the military. That is what the well-regulated militia is all about: free citizens who train with weapons that can stay and rout a formation of soldiers. You will likely disagree with me about that, but until someone can show me something from a more honest, less shockingly illiberal judicial thinker than Associate Justice Sonia Sotomayor ... I'll hold to this belief, and count anyone opposing it to either be not paying attention ... or having an undisclosed dog in the hunt."

Bro reading your rants I cant get past the faux intellectual tone (cringe worthy) coupled with the cave man grasp societal dynamics. In my view you're fortunate that these guys (see4, fogdog) don't straight ignore the juvenile bluster you post.


"You don't need to be a scientist to acknowledge the impulse." Ironic! from your posting the only requirements you seem to satisfy are, self important, myopic, capable of gas bagging on any topic.


"I admit my knowledge of law is almost nil." Odd, because for a second, I thought you were a second amendment scholar. Based on your posts your "knowledge" is more like the oafish fantasies of an isolated half wit.

"I am not the only person who perceives/believes this. If the others like me are not represented by the system, I see the nation headed towards painful, messy revolution ... and most of those end much worse than the bad that bred them." What??? The echo of your prepper bunker makes it sound like your broadcasting out your ass.

You bark out against sotomayor as if your talking about more than your rabid ignorance. Youre not.

Bro it's astonishing that you post these shit torrents as if you have even a single legit or original thought. You post as if youve never opened a book, attended a university or reflected on the thinking of those who refuted your primitive notions in ancient times.
I am not a Second Amendment scholar. But i can read. The Second is (but for a punctuational archaism) very simply stated.

As for Sotomayor, look it up. She said just that and meant it. Your failure to debunk that ... marks you as speaking out of loyalty, not honor. ~sigh~
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
You keep spouting this faux scientific concept that people are "apex predators" and predatory nature of human kind. Yet this is not the distinguishing characteristic of humanity. From your false premise, you go on and on about how weapons "make us civilized" and survival of the fittest as if life in the US is some sort of urban jungle where to live until the next day is a victory over evil doers and other humans who want to take your life.

While it's a fun fantasy to imagine us as some form of Kzin you completely miss what science and physical and social anthropology actually tell us about ourselves. The most successful species on this planet have one thing in common, a social gene for cooperation and the willingness to sacrifice for the group. This genetic predisposition for cooperation has been studied extensively in honey bees but is also present in the most successful animals on the planet, ants. Behavioral science-based mathematical models for behavior have shown quite clearly that animals who live cooperatively in communities that will rally to defend the community at the cost of individual lives are much more successful than analogous animals with the same abilities but do not cooperate. What other successful animals have this gene? Quite a few, but one of them are human.

I'm not going to argue your philosophy, which is based on some lone wolf model of behavior because it is based upon a false premise. The reality is that people do best when they cooperate with each other while having the freedom to act independently. And, actually, wolves don't survive well outside of a pack. When we cannot trust our neighbor, whether it be due to a form of threat or simply because they don't live by the same social mores as others, our ability to perform the two contradictory functions of cooperation and independence breaks down.

And so, your argument about guns as a civilizing force is ridiculous. Threatening people or performing acts that cause fear only drive people into tighter knit and smaller groups. These groups may act against others out of fear, whether imagined or real. Civilized societies that successfully operate on large scales have well understood rules of behavior where people know what to expect from each other in specific situations. They also don't kill each other out of fear. People cooperate to produce more than they can by themselves. Cooperative behavior is fundamental to pre-industrial agriculture, which is the true foundation of civilization, not the gun.

Whether we own guns or not, therefore is not relevant to civilization. Removing guns in a fragmented and fraught social situation won't make us more civilized, nor will seeding society with enough firepower to slaughter all members many times over. Removing fear and it's causes are the answers. Such as eliminate food and shelter insecurity. Remove barriers to social mobility -- let those with the most ability rise up and provide those with less ability a safety net where their dignity and security are maintained.

The reality is that, as outlined in the link below, the US and the people of world on the whole are living in some of the safest and most peaceful times in history. It feels otherwise but that's just fake fear. So again, your perceived need to arm yourself in preparation for battle with other apex predators -- this testosterone driven rhetoric is too funny to me -- is due to cowardice and fearfulness.

"forsooth" LOL, who uses that word in everyday conversation? How funny

The World Is Not Falling Apart
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html
Duly noted we both have very similar arguments and world views, I could have sworn we had disagreement of a more personal nature regarding a perceived slight. You're still a dick and so am I, but we share an understanding of human nature to some extent.

Observe how deeply ingrained xenophobia is, even in highly intelligent folks like Cannabineer. His own xenophobia actually does seem to present as evidence of his view that it is intrinsic to his nature. What a cynical idea, but he posited it in the context of tribal genetics. What if he's right and white people really are xenophobic by their very nature?
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
Duly noted we both have very similar arguments and world views, I could have sworn we had disagreement of a more personal nature regarding a perceived slight. You're still a dick and so am I, but we share an understanding of human nature to some extent.

Observe how deeply ingrained xenophobia is, even in highly intelligent folks like Cannabineer. His own xenophobia actually does seem to present as evidence of his view that it is intrinsic to his nature. What a cynical idea, but he posited it in the context of tribal genetics. What if he's right and white people really are xenophobic by their very nature?
Dude youve got to be kidding? He speaks like a fucking bloated donkey.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Duly noted we both have very similar arguments and world views, I could have sworn we had disagreement of a more personal nature regarding a perceived slight. You're still a dick and so am I, but we share an understanding of human nature to some extent.

Observe how deeply ingrained xenophobia is, even in highly intelligent folks like Cannabineer. His own xenophobia actually does seem to present as evidence of his view that it is intrinsic to his nature. What a cynical idea, but he posited it in the context of tribal genetics. What if he's right and people really are xenophobic by their very nature?
Fixed it for you in that very annoying "Deciphering" trick you use. It isn't a white people thing. You ignored my previous post on the topic. You too have a GREAT day now.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I dismiss no science. I dismiss a pseudoscience that has become the last refuge of Postmodern intellectual scoundrels. Science involves physical measurement. That sad truth marks us as Medievals. But I see the truth of it, and it inoculates me against utopian waste of effort.

Show me an objective science of human behavior. One without the endless statistics that are the other great refuge of subjective intellectual dishonesty. I doubt you will be able to bring that. (But I do not exclude the possibility. I am just as prone to intellectual cramp as the rest of us here.)

I do not admit defeat in this instance, your appeal to authority notwithstanding.

I'll still share my beer with you though.
Only an "intellectual scoundrel" would attempt to redefine words to suit his arguments and dismiss entire sectors of respectable study because he did not like the conclusions that study had reached.

There is no science of human that is not called anthropology. There is no study of human social behavior that is not called social anthropology.
 
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