2700k, 3000k, 3500k, 6500k... wtf?

Cedru

Member
A little help would be appreciated in clearing something up for me.

"Back in the day " we used a higher spectrum (mh @ 6500k) for veg stage, then went into a lower spectrum (hps @ 2700k) for flowing.

Now with these COBs, I see a lot of recommending of a straight 3500k.

Wouldn't it be more plant productive to get 6500k cobs for veg and 2700k COBs for flowing?

I know your buying more COBs and drivers, but let's assume that startup cost isn't much of an issue.

Thank you,
*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
 

ZeroTrousers

Well-Known Member
Long story short:

3000k-4000k are all that is really needed for practical efficiency.

While it is true that higher color temperatures will be slightly more efficient in veg than flower and vice versa, for the amount of gain you would get for doubling up on your COBs is pretty negligible compared to the cost.

You would be much better off to go for a 3500-4000K and supplement with some red/far red 3W LEDs for the amount of cost involved.
 

Cedru

Member
So, hypothetically speaking, if one were to set up a perpetual grow, one area for seedlings/veg, another for flowering, using all COBs, it WOULD be beneficial to go with a higher spectrum set of lights for the veg area, and a lower spectrum of lights for the flowing area.

You'll be buying the additional COBs anyway, so what downfalls would happen should someone do this kind of setup?

Thank you,
*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
 

DesertPlants

Well-Known Member
I prefer to stay with a 90 CRI 3000K as it helps keep the plants thick, shorter (only slightly) and denser. Switching between the two only matters if you have separate areas for vegging and flowering as just having a set of lights sitting there doing nothing is less economical than using 3000K all the way.
 

verticalgrow

Well-Known Member
So, hypothetically speaking, if one were to set up a perpetual grow, one area for seedlings/veg, another for flowering, using all COBs, it WOULD be beneficial to go with a higher spectrum set of lights for the veg area, and a lower spectrum of lights for the flowing area.

You'll be buying the additional COBs anyway, so what downfalls would happen should someone do this kind of setup?

Thank you,
*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
3k v 4k = https://www.rollitup.org/t/tasty-led-3000k-90cri-vs-4000k-80cri-grow-log.945276/page-3#post-13801889
 

ZeroTrousers

Well-Known Member
This right here is why i split the difference and when with 3500K on my DIY COBs.

Of note, my Geyapex fixture which uses the Citizen CLU048-1212 LEDs @ 90+ CRI and 4000K is performing basically the same as my 3500k COBs as far as I can tell - Hardly a scientific study but that is my experience.

After tons of research on the subject, I'll eventually be shelling out the $60 or so to set up some Far Red as that seems to be a better to me than trying to add 2700K LEDs to my existing setup.
 

Rahz

Well-Known Member
You need to look at the spectrums and see what the Kelvin and CRI ratings are affecting. General rule with LED, 80 CRI indicates the red peak is at 600nm. 90 CRI indicates the red peak is at 630nm. The result is 90 CRI having substantially higher levels of light in the 630-730 range than 80 CRI even when looking at 2700K -vs- 3500K for instance. Kelvin affects ratio between red and blue peaks but doesn't indicate ratio of red:deep red.

Deep red causes stretch in the vegetative period, therefore 90 CRI, even in a higher Kelvin such as 3500K 90CRI will be associated with more stretch (in veg). This is not necessarily a bad thing unless the grow will be in a cab with limited space. Most tents can handle whatever color temp you throw at them.

Typical old school HPS: 5% in the blue spectrum.
Typical 2700K 90CRI: 8% in the blue spectrum.
Typical 3000K 90CRI: 10% in the blue spectrum.
3000K 80CRI: 12% in the blue spectrum.
3500K 80CRI: around 15% in the blue spectrum.

In theory 2700/90 should produce shorter plants than HPS, not just because of the blue ratio but also because LED generally has less deep/far red than the HPS spectrum even in the case of high CRI.

Anything above 4000K when talking about LED achieves it's rating in part by shifting the orange/red peak toward green/yellow. Take a look at some 5600, 6500K spectral charts. Nothing necessarily wrong with green in the spectrum but orange/red provides the most efficient conversion of light energy to plant energy. It's questionable whether there is any point in going higher than 4000K when it comes to flowering a plant, or even vegging, not just due to the loss of orange/red but because there's no indication that boosting the blue ratio above 20% will further reduce vertical growth.

If testing was done that indicated 5600/6500 provided shorter plants, one would also want to look at plant mass, meaning they might end up shorter because there was less photosynthesis on a watt per watt basis. OTOH, if electrical use isn't a concern it might be worthwhile to do some testing with higher K samples since levels of deep red, though generally low at 70/80 CRI will be even lower at higher K temps... however I suspect the effect would be minimal...

3000K 80CRI, 3500K 80CRI, 3000K 70CRI will produce similar plant height. 2700K 90CRI, 3000K 90CRI (and likely 3500K 90CRI) will produce similar plant height.

High CRI is also associated with less stretch during the flowering period! More research needs to be done but that has been my observation.

In a test, full cycle with 90 CRI ended with plants being only 3-4 inches taller than 80 CRI full cycle, while 90CRI was a foot taller at the beginning of 12/12. With final full cycle plant height around 5 feet this comes out to about 5% difference. Plant height at the end of the veg period was about 25-30% difference.

Untested but, shortest plants possible, less or equal to 80 CRI in veg, and 90 CRI in flower. In theory this will result in shorter finish than running 80 CRI full cycle. For these reasons I suggest 4000K 80CRI for dedicated veg and 3000K 90CRI for dedicated flower.

It should be noted that observations are based on available data I'm aware of. Certain combinations are generally avoided that would be helpful in rounding out the testing data. If someone took one for the team and vegged with 3000K 70 CRI -vs- 6500K 70 CRI for instance and compared height -vs- plant mass, or compared plant height and yields between 3000K 90CRI -vs- 5600K 70 CRI for instance. @REALSTYLES has vegged with high K so he may have some input. Testing data seems to indicate around 5% increase in yield with 90 CRI samples over 80 CRI. More testing is needed in this area. Testing data also indicates reduced flowering times using high CRI. Because of the small variances and limited testing these results also need further validation. @The Dawg has played around with various samples so he may be able to provide some more insight.
 

Cedru

Member
You need to look at the spectrums and see what the Kelvin and CRI ratings are affecting. General rule with LED, 80 CRI indicates the red peak is at 600nm. 90 CRI indicates the red peak is at 630nm. The result is 90 CRI having substantially higher levels of light in the 630-730 range than 80 CRI even when looking at 2700K -vs- 3500K for instance. Kelvin affects ratio between red and blue peaks but doesn't indicate ratio of red:deep red.

Deep red causes stretch in the vegetative period, therefore 90 CRI, even in a higher Kelvin such as 3500K 90CRI will be associated with more stretch (in veg). This is not necessarily a bad thing unless the grow will be in a cab with limited space. Most tents can handle whatever color temp you throw at them.

Typical old school HPS: 5% in the blue spectrum.
Typical 2700K 90CRI: 8% in the blue spectrum.
Typical 3000K 90CRI: 10% in the blue spectrum.
3000K 80CRI: 12% in the blue spectrum.
3500K 80CRI: around 15% in the blue spectrum.

In theory 2700/90 should produce shorter plants than HPS, not just because of the blue ratio but also because LED generally has less deep/far red than the HPS spectrum even in the case of high CRI.

Anything above 4000K when talking about LED achieves it's rating in part by shifting the orange/red peak toward green/yellow. Take a look at some 5600, 6500K spectral charts. Nothing necessarily wrong with green in the spectrum but orange/red provides the most efficient conversion of light energy to plant energy. It's questionable whether there is any point in going higher than 4000K when it comes to flowering a plant, or even vegging, not just due to the loss of orange/red but because there's no indication that boosting the blue ratio above 20% will further reduce vertical growth.

If testing was done that indicated 5600/6500 provided shorter plants, one would also want to look at plant mass, meaning they might end up shorter because there was less photosynthesis on a watt per watt basis. OTOH, if electrical use isn't a concern it might be worthwhile to do some testing with higher K samples since levels of deep red, though generally low at 70/80 CRI will be even lower at higher K temps... however I suspect the effect would be minimal...

3000K 80CRI, 3500K 80CRI, 3000K 70CRI will produce similar plant height. 2700K 90CRI, 3000K 90CRI (and likely 3500K 90CRI) will produce similar plant height.

High CRI is also associated with less stretch during the flowering period! More research needs to be done but that has been my observation.

In a test, full cycle with 90 CRI ended with plants being only 3-4 inches taller than 80 CRI full cycle, while 90CRI was a foot taller at the beginning of 12/12. With final full cycle plant height around 5 feet this comes out to about 5% difference. Plant height at the end of the veg period was about 25-30% difference.

Untested but, shortest plants possible, less or equal to 80 CRI in veg, and 90 CRI in flower. In theory this will result in shorter finish than running 80 CRI full cycle. For these reasons I suggest 4000K 80CRI for dedicated veg and 3000K 90CRI for dedicated flower.

It should be noted that observations are based on available data I'm aware of. Certain combinations are generally avoided that would be helpful in rounding out the testing data. If someone took one for the team and vegged with 3000K 70 CRI -vs- 6500K 70 CRI for instance and compared height -vs- plant mass, or compared plant height and yields between 3000K 90CRI -vs- 5600K 70 CRI for instance. @REALSTYLES has vegged with high K so he may have some input. Testing data seems to indicate around 5% increase in yield with 90 CRI samples over 80 CRI. More testing is needed in this area. Testing data also indicates reduced flowering times using high CRI. Because of the small variances and limited testing these results also need further validation. @The Dawg has played around with various samples so he may be able to provide some more insight.

That, my friend, is extremely informative. Thank you so much sir for the detailed analysis.

I'd still like to see a side by side comparison between a 6500k/2700k veg/fower grow to a straight 3000k or 3500k start/ finish grow.

Since I plan on getting two sets of lights, one for veg, one for flower, I'm going to do different color spectrums and may be journal it when it gets going.

Thank you again @Rahz for your informative and detailed analysis.

*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
 

Humple

Well-Known Member
Personally, I'm moving away from the separate veg/flower lighting model. With LED it just doesn't seem worthwhile. If I'm going to have multiple grow spaces (and I do), I want the versatility of being able to veg or flower in any of them, at any time. You never know when one of your grow cycles is going to get screwed up, for whatever reason, so I think it's valuable to have swing-space for your plants. You can move them around as necessary, without impacting their growth too much.
 

keepsake

Well-Known Member
I bought the 2700k 320w quantum board kit from HLG. I'm gonna buy the same kit in 4000k and put both lights in my 4x4 tent for a total of 640 watts of LED.

I will grow with this set up start to finish.

Hopefully it does good. I'll keep ya posted.
 

Psyphish

Well-Known Member
The highest wattage E27 bulbs available locally are 2700K and 4000K, the manufacturer says the CRI on both is "80 - 89"... so probably closer to 80 than 90. I've already ran the 4000K bulbs and the results were OK, nothing spectacular, but still decent. Do you think I'd have better results with the 2700K bulbs or if I should just stick with the 4000K ones?
 

VegasWinner

Well-Known Member
A little help would be appreciated in clearing something up for me.

"Back in the day " we used a higher spectrum (mh @ 6500k) for veg stage, then went into a lower spectrum (hps @ 2700k) for flowing.

Now with these COBs, I see a lot of recommending of a straight 3500k.

Wouldn't it be more plant productive to get 6500k cobs for veg and 2700k COBs for flowing?

I know your buying more COBs and drivers, but let's assume that startup cost isn't much of an issue.

Thank you,
*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
You figured it out. Nothing has changed much over the years. Spectrum is still king.
I use GrowGreen boards that have both 3000k and 5000k on a single board. The 5000k helps great during veg stage and the 3000k helps with growth and development in veg and excellent for flower. The 5000k in flower helps keep stretch down and increases photon depth.

Royal Blue 460nm is good for signalling plant to increase energy absorption rates.

Deep Red 650nm responds to Royal Blue with increased energy production within plant increasing growth patterns and health.

These are specific light spectrum the plant responds to and certain kelvin have some 460nm in hte 5000k and 6500k spectrum, and the Deep Red 650nm in the 2700k-4000k.

Far Red i700nm s in none of those spectrum, as well, and needs to be added for circadian effects, as does UVA 385nm is not in basic spectrum fro 2700k-6500k and must be added separate, too.
peace
 

Dave455

Well-Known Member
This right here is why i split the difference and when with 3500K on my DIY COBs.

Of note, my Geyapex fixture which uses the Citizen CLU048-1212 LEDs @ 90+ CRI and 4000K is performing basically the same as my 3500k COBs as far as I can tell - Hardly a scientific study but that is my experience.

After tons of research on the subject, I'll eventually be shelling out the $60 or so to set up some Far Red as that seems to be a better to me than trying to add 2700K LEDs to my existing setup.
I believe far red over 700nm puts plants to sleep sooner by running 5 mts after lights out. This will allow you to run longer day length. 13/10 vs. 12/12.....Your 2700 light will provide more overall red.
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
i have 2 DIY Cob panels,, one is 3000K crees,,the other is 4000K citi's,, i have done grows with both panels start to finish,, all the way thru veg and flower,, just one panel each time,, and I cant tell any differance in grows
I'm running the 97cri 4000k citizen cobs. I like them.

A little help would be appreciated in clearing something up for me.

"Back in the day " we used a higher spectrum (mh @ 6500k) for veg stage, then went into a lower spectrum (hps @ 2700k) for flowing.

Now with these COBs, I see a lot of recommending of a straight 3500k.

Wouldn't it be more plant productive to get 6500k cobs for veg and 2700k COBs for flowing?

I know your buying more COBs and drivers, but let's assume that startup cost isn't much of an issue.

Thank you,
*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
I prefer mixed spectrum. Though the 3500 or 4000k work just fine you could always mix the spectrum on your cobs. That's what I did with t5. Instead of switching spectrum I ran mixed all the way through.

I like uv also. I plan to add it back in with my cobs.
 
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Rahz

Well-Known Member
Personally, I'm moving away from the separate veg/flower lighting model. With LED it just doesn't seem worthwhile. If I'm going to have multiple grow spaces (and I do), I want the versatility of being able to veg or flower in any of them, at any time. You never know when one of your grow cycles is going to get screwed up, for whatever reason, so I think it's valuable to have swing-space for your plants. You can move them around as necessary, without impacting their growth too much.
Same here. The reason it's worth pointing out is that LED is capable of running multiple tiers under an 8 foot ceiling, especially with the strips people are using these days. If you absolutely want to keep plant height down low as possible, cut out the deep red during veg and lay it on during flower.

I'm still trying to figure out whether there are yield variations, currently working with 3000K 70CRI -vs- 3500K 80CRI.

Observations so far, the 3000K 70CRI lamp produced a better looking veg plant, few inches taller while still looking just as full, 3500K 80CRI caught up during flower so they're about even now. Previous results with these two spectrums were more similar, but being up close and personal allows me to get a closer look and see smaller differences. The differences aren't as dramatic as what I observed with the 90 CRI spectrums but they were still apparent. Final flowering results are difficult to eyeball. I'm about a week away from harvest and can't tell enough of a difference to make a guess on yield.
 

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
A little help would be appreciated in clearing something up for me.

"Back in the day " we used a higher spectrum (mh @ 6500k) for veg stage, then went into a lower spectrum (hps @ 2700k) for flowing.

Now with these COBs, I see a lot of recommending of a straight 3500k.

Wouldn't it be more plant productive to get 6500k cobs for veg and 2700k COBs for flowing?

I know your buying more COBs and drivers, but let's assume that startup cost isn't much of an issue.

Thank you,
*.*.* Cedru *.*.*
Short answer - Because that literally was all that was available in high efficiency lighting "back in the day".
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
"Back in the day " we used a higher spectrum (mh @ 6500k) for veg stage
Does MH go that high? I've always used a 4000K MH for veg and then flower under HPS. Even if 6500K existed, I think most people used the 4000K version and that's similar to a 4000K COB.

Seedlings would go under a 6500K fluorescent, but I always thought it actually kept them too short.
 
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