Candybeast
Active Member
I agree with that for sure.
4 leaf sets per node?????
- Thread starter Jiggaboo Taylor
- Start date
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Depends on what you mean with succes. I get most whorlers in a very bushy afghanica (ICE cross) and least in a very stretchy almost hemp like sativa. not sure if there is a link.
There are so many ways the hormone regulation is affected and it can be most genetic or mostly environment (not necessarily stressful) but yes usually a combination.
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Sativied tells it better than i can but yes i agree here and was what it seems like. So many growers seem eager to find genetic mutations that i dont think they will ever find let alone breed on into viable seeds and strains.
I feel like most if not everything has been covered and mucho Rep+++ to Satieved, if i ever get a whorler (love that word) i will certainly consider trying to get better buds of it but thesedays im lucky if i get much past normal plants.
A very interesting thread and discussion, lets see how your plant turns out Candy and please link me up once its grown more, quite like these subjects
Candybeast
Active Member
If there were some really rare genetics out there that held monster plants , I doubt I would find it in a Dinafem Cheese seed. Been pretty thoroughly bred.
Yeah I for sure will. In the mean tine you can check my current grow journal. Well my flower tent. It's in my profile
Yeah I for sure will. In the mean tine you can check my current grow journal. Well my flower tent. It's in my profile
Candybeast
Active Member
Check out my current journal . It's in my profile. I'll set one up for these plants if you want to follow. I'll do a side by side. Since one is doing it and one is not.Sativied tells it better than i can but yes i agree here and was what it seems like. So many growers seem eager to find genetic mutations that i dont think they will ever find let alone breed on into viable seeds and strains.
I feel like most if not everything has been covered and mucho Rep+++ to Satieved, if i ever get a whorler (love that word) i will certainly consider trying to get better buds of it but thesedays im lucky if i get much past normal plants.
A very interesting thread and discussion, lets see how your plant turns out Candy and please link me up once its grown more, quite like these subjects
GroErr
Well-Known Member
Classic detailed explanation and some great insight as always @Sativied +rep. From the first part of your explanation sounds like there's is a greater chance (not guarantee) of getting a true "whorler" from these triploids, but not all will necessarily become whorlers. Only one's I've seen have been in your thread, would be cool to get one to grow out sometime.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't consider that a more true whorler but it certainly would be what I call an early whorler (assuming it whorles, which is usually the case) and provide the main benefit during veg. The whorlers from tricots often grow out of it after several nodes and/or whorl only on the main stem. They are sort of forced to whorl, inevitable because of the three cotyledons and the hofmeister rule (the new set of leaves will be in between the previous). The ideal would be a combination of such whorlers and mine. In that case it can always be topped after just two nodes (to get six colas) and branches and thus clones will carry the trait on.
GroErr
Well-Known Member
Ok thanks, will keep a close eye on this next one coming up to see what it does. Haven't had a female yet, hoping that second one is to see where it goes.
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Weve had some long conversations as to the cause of tricots on a few threads recently ranging from rna damage, pathogens, stress etc etc as the seed was forrming. Wiki has a link under fasciation that a few have quoted from -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciation
GroErr
Well-Known Member
Interesting, if I were seeing this across different strains/seedlings, I'd be looking at a source of potential infection or hormonal issue. If it's happening on the same strain seedlings when other strains/seedlings were in the same environment I'd lean towards the mutation factor.
Candybeast
Active Member
It's one plant. From seed. I think its definitely genetically predisposed to do it. But the intense training I employed was probably what invoked it to happen . Strain is Cheese from Dinafem. I xant believe no one else has run into this. I know alot of people have grown out these beans before.
Candybeast
Active Member
This isn't Fasciation that I have going on. Though I would love to catch an example of it in my garden. Just to get the experience. I know growers who love the flat ,Hong Kong style bids they produce.
Candybeast
Active Member
By success, I mean a plan that stood up to its name. No diminished yield, same potency as other samples of strain, no sexing issues, ect.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately some of my whorlers, well, specifically one cola on some of my whorlers, turn fasciated. Usually not a good thing, not in terms of structure (flat stem and way too many fans) and not when it comes to the mohawk looking bud. Check out @Netherfly 's journal for more examples of whorler gone fasciated. It's in my case, in practice treated as an unstable whorler.
That said, they are not stable enough to really make hard conclusions about potency and yield. Not the crosses, nor the parents. Like I said in my long reply, it depends a lot on what you cross it with and that doesn't only vary per strain but also per plant.
ICE x CH-quad (tri on most branches)
Had to chop the top of some colas early because it started to rot.
F2:
More ice x ch
Looks ten x better than it tastes, just blend afghani. Discontinued this line. Beside the occasional hermie it's just not my kind of bud.
P-F1A
And B (clone of the above, flowered in same cycle)
I took that one up to F4, but never even planted those because after drying and curing the F3 most just wasn't the best in hindsight. Tried two more F3 before I created a fresh F2 from F1 earlier this year. It has a very distinct and string pine smell, even the leaves during veg, with a hint of sweet haze. Great stuff but after smoking it day after day for several periods of months I got really bored with it. Will probably grow it again next year.
Personally I'd never use something from dinafem for breeding but regardless of the strain or breeder any plant can carry traits that are worthy or at least fun to breed into other varieties. I guess the best, whether it's for breeding or growing, would imo be the one producing the bud taste and effect you enjoy the most. In the end the product is all that matters. It's been fun and educative but I wasted a lot of time on selecting the best of 4 whorling crosses. I'm working on a few other crosses which I will eventually cross with a whorler. Sort of treat it like feminized or auto flower trait, add it at the end of the line.
I had none of those issues with an indica dom, a sativa dom, and a skunk cross, and cannalope haze itself, except that the indica dom (ICE x CH) actually does produce hermies. So do some of the sisters of the mom so I'm pretty sure it's not from the whorling dad.
That said, they are not stable enough to really make hard conclusions about potency and yield. Not the crosses, nor the parents. Like I said in my long reply, it depends a lot on what you cross it with and that doesn't only vary per strain but also per plant.
ICE x CH-quad (tri on most branches)
Had to chop the top of some colas early because it started to rot.
F2:
More ice x ch
Looks ten x better than it tastes, just blend afghani. Discontinued this line. Beside the occasional hermie it's just not my kind of bud.
P-F1A
And B (clone of the above, flowered in same cycle)
I took that one up to F4, but never even planted those because after drying and curing the F3 most just wasn't the best in hindsight. Tried two more F3 before I created a fresh F2 from F1 earlier this year. It has a very distinct and string pine smell, even the leaves during veg, with a hint of sweet haze. Great stuff but after smoking it day after day for several periods of months I got really bored with it. Will probably grow it again next year.
Personally I'd never use something from dinafem for breeding but regardless of the strain or breeder any plant can carry traits that are worthy or at least fun to breed into other varieties. I guess the best, whether it's for breeding or growing, would imo be the one producing the bud taste and effect you enjoy the most. In the end the product is all that matters. It's been fun and educative but I wasted a lot of time on selecting the best of 4 whorling crosses. I'm working on a few other crosses which I will eventually cross with a whorler. Sort of treat it like feminized or auto flower trait, add it at the end of the line.
Candybeast
Active Member
Yo thanks for all the tips brother. I'm just starting to learn the basics of breeding. Right now all I am doing is selecting clone's to keep. Which I will eventually cross with some seeds I made. Yeah I realize Dinafem gets some bad rep. People like to hate on the big companies and I don't blame them. But being how limited I am on space.4x4 flower tent and 32"-32" veg tent. I wanted to start with feminized seeds. I don't trust clone's from the dispensaries. Had bad luck my first time and got mites. So far Dinafem has impressed me. But I haven't smoked it yet. My current grow is Dinachem and Kush n Cheese. Granted they're All different pheno but they're pretty homogeneous. IMO. I know there is stronger genetics out there. But as far as feminized seeds go. I trust Dinafem. Anyway. So you saying if I do choose a whorled to put into my line. Select for other traits first. And then cross the whorled with a stable non whorled?
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Sorry dude i use the wiki link as a possible means to describe how a seed would have three cotyledons without it being genetically caused. Wether or wether not buds are fasciated its certainly possible for somthing like rna damage to cause a tri leafed seedling (tricot). I have never found much evidence to support a genetic trait but plenty to suggest an underlying factor that would manipulate the genetics. A lot of this seems to fit well with the observations made that tricots can quite easily revert back to normal growth. I would assume if it was purely genetic this tri leafed trait would be easily breedable and we would see a lot of new interesting strains.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I have nothing against big companies, especially if they do the work instead of just making fem seeds with other breeder's work and popular clones. They are good for growing because they know where and from who to source the good stuff, I just wouldn't choose them for breeding, which has nothing to do with my dislike for them. I wouldn't ditch any plants with desirable traits from dinafem if I happened to have one though.
Yes, though ideally after you confirmed if and how it inherits. Either cross out or self for testing, or breed with something similar so you stablize the whorler line a bit too (which if anything will result in more uniform plants once you use it to cross). I assume you don't have space for a thousand plants, so with limited plant count it is harder to find plants that whorl and have all the other best traits in the cross. E.g. a non-whorler could be a higher yielder or taste better or finish a week sooner and then by selecting a whorler you don't select for the best of other traits. The non-whorling line doesn't have to be related or something you work on first, it can be something like your favorite kush or something close to what you got. If you breed in you will (given a limited plant count) typically end up with something lesser than the original parents and then the only way to fix it is crossing out, or with a different line from the same strain.
A possible pitfall, if the plant you have the whorl trait in is dominant for most other traits when crossed with others it may be hard to end up with something different than the whorler. For example, (so far) no matter what I cross my P plants with, all the offspring will smell and taste like pine. So it wouldn't be a good candidate because besides passing on whorl trait it will be pine again. Obviously doable to breed out but takes more time and effort. Ideally, the plant with the whorl trait, the whorled phyllotaxy donor, is recessive for most other traits (which depends on what you cross it with, only one way to find out).
Candybeast
Active Member
I had to read that twice.i think I get the jist of it though. When I do start to breed, it will be in a bigger space. I have plans that hopefully happen by next year. As for now I am starting to save pheno that I like. Cheese has always been a favorite. Especially the flavor. Also it trains really well. I've kept a clone of both the whorler and non worled pheno. My other favorite strain is black Jack, the black domina version. So that's my first goal or breeding I want to do a cheese x black jack cross. When breeding with Clones does the health of said clone ,let's say the one I pollinate with, determine the final outcome? Should I try to save more than one or two? Or as long as I get the pollen is all good? This is just a general breeding question. Not necessarily whorlers.
Last edited:
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Id like to bring one more peice of evidence to breedable traits to the table and that the fact that some traits are not single genes or proteins. This evidence has been proposed by genetic engineers as to why we simply cannot breed the hermie trait out of cannabis. No one gene dictates hemaphodism but a whole host of them and it would seem very few are linked to the sexual side of mj's genetics.
We find certain traits are hard wired into plants and no amount of breeding programs can change that.
This evidence is again freely citeable from wiki as you reach what modern day genetics has discovered. This stumbling block seems completly overlooked by some mj breeders who have failed dramatically to breed certain traits, hermies, whorlled etc etc.
No one gene controls some traits and therefore medelanian simple genetics falls flat on its face. Imagine there were a hundred different proteins that determined whorlled phy. you'd stand no chance at changing them all and hence their combined effects would thwat any breeder from trying. We see the term hardwired when describing traits that are controlled by the cumulative effect of many genes, youd need a big ass lab and mucho time and money to start breeding out multiple genes that all work together to produce a combined trait.
I dont expect many to understand this but it is at the forefront of modern genetics. I mean we could induce certain traits but others we cannot and it is this im sure which stops us from producing 100% hermie free strains or whorlle strains.
I cite the info on wiki under genetics for those that wish to gain a deeper understanding into why we simply cannot and will not create breedinng programs for certain plant traits and would hope that those with a genetic background can confirrm these problems....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics
We find certain traits are hard wired into plants and no amount of breeding programs can change that.
This evidence is again freely citeable from wiki as you reach what modern day genetics has discovered. This stumbling block seems completly overlooked by some mj breeders who have failed dramatically to breed certain traits, hermies, whorlled etc etc.
No one gene controls some traits and therefore medelanian simple genetics falls flat on its face. Imagine there were a hundred different proteins that determined whorlled phy. you'd stand no chance at changing them all and hence their combined effects would thwat any breeder from trying. We see the term hardwired when describing traits that are controlled by the cumulative effect of many genes, youd need a big ass lab and mucho time and money to start breeding out multiple genes that all work together to produce a combined trait.
I dont expect many to understand this but it is at the forefront of modern genetics. I mean we could induce certain traits but others we cannot and it is this im sure which stops us from producing 100% hermie free strains or whorlle strains.
I cite the info on wiki under genetics for those that wish to gain a deeper understanding into why we simply cannot and will not create breedinng programs for certain plant traits and would hope that those with a genetic background can confirrm these problems....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics
Candybeast
Active Member
Never say never. Fact is proven wrong by new evidence daily. Good info