6OOO watt ventillation question

headbandrocker

Well-Known Member
I have 6x1ks and havent got them all running yet but have them with aircooled hoods on a closed loop.How hot will it be once all 6 run?
Im going to pull fresh air in from 2 areas and have a 12" exaust if it gets to warm,but i want to run co2 and am tring to fuigure out if i need to get a air conditioner....any recomendations?
 

303

Well-Known Member
I'd love to help, photos? what size grow room/s? (dimensions) And what temps are you getting? If warmer than 27 Celsius (82 degrees) than co2 is vital. You can get away without co2 if you get an ac unit set at minimally 26.6 Celsius (APRX. 80 degrees usa)
 

Mcgician

Well-Known Member
Dude, there's NO WAY to run that many 1000's in one room without AC...IMHO. Figuring out how to deal with cooling the room separately from the lights, and with Co2, while factoring in how to deal with odor, is quite a chore. Are you sure you want to run that much? How many grows with 1000's and Co2 have you done before? Not trying to sound harsh, the only reason I ask is because I'd hate to see you invest so much in all this equipment, only to end up frying those plants up later on.

IMO, you're going to have to cool those 1000's effectively first and foremost. Even with air cooled lights, it will probably still get hot in there. I just don't see any way around getting an AC unit. I'm looking into one myself. In fact, I posted a thread about it in the Grow Room Design and Setup section. In order to help you though, I need to know if there's a window in the room that you can use a AC unit in. With as many lights as you're running, no portable AC unit will be able to handle the task. (Again, my opinion) If others have or are able to make a setup like that work without AC, more power to them. All I know is, I've never seen a grow with that many 1000's not running it.
 

abellguy

Active Member
6000 watts will put so much heat into any room no amount of air cooling alone will take care of it. As previous posters have mentioned you have to control the heat to have an effective grow with that much wattage. In my opion from banging my head against a wall, I found out that trying to run a wall unit in one room by itself doesn't work to well cause you have a centralized high level of air coming out that isn't spread around well and you have to work that unit to hard to keep the area coverd you have with the 6000 watts.



You would do better by looking into liquid cooled options at that level. You could go with the ice box if noise isn't an issue for you. You would pref. need a good chiller setup and a fan on each light. Then you get cool lights with cool air in the room as well!!

Or you could go with a custom a/c configuration in one room with liquid lumens if noise is an issue for you then you just need a sealed room with regular exhaust and intake and the custom air.

No matter what you decide you will need an air conditioner. Hope this helps:joint:
 

zvinny

Active Member
I have 6x1ks and havent got them all running yet but have them with aircooled hoods on a closed loop.How hot will it be once all 6 run?
Im going to pull fresh air in from 2 areas and have a 12" exaust if it gets to warm,but i want to run co2 and am tring to fuigure out if i need to get a air conditioner....any recomendations?
yes m8ty most def got to get air con with that lot phew can feel the heat from here lol
 

headbandrocker

Well-Known Member
Thanks for stopping by guys!

The room is 13 x 11 with a window where i have built a window box 12"out 8"in
I was going to run a closed/sealed room but couldnt get the 1 to 3 grnd for the 24,ooo btu split ac.So my plan was to pull air out with the 12" fan
Intake for ac lights would be a hole cut in the wall through lights with {from cooler room} and the fresh aair comming in a hole on the door to that room.

I was originally going to attempt to void cutting any holes,but sheet rock looks easy enough to repair.
By my calculations i need about 24k btu to cool 6 x 1ks.
But those are a bit too much $$ for now,i though about using my homedepot card and buying one,but i couldnt find the prices for their trane ac systems.

I have the lights hanging in 2 x 1k pairs {3 rows}covering roughly an 8x4
{would a 9,ooo-12k btu ac help 6 x 1k a/c lights on closed loop?}

the ice box liquid cooled fans look nice too but their chiller is $$$$
I am on a budget so cheap or used or avail at home de pot.
I could spend 6oo bux tops cash {if i dont get a co2 controller},but rather spend less.
Any ideas/pictures of sealed,CGE,CEA rooms,or rooms with a/c lights using co2 would be rewarded with thanks and praise!
Recap of room specs:
11x13
1 window
1 door i can cut hole in {or walls}
6 x 1ooo w ballasts in room =(
resivoir is in room =(
ouside air is 8o - 85 f usually

Thanks again for any interest in helping me
 

HappySack

Well-Known Member
You ever noticed that there are so many that say you can't do that! You'll never be able to do that, that will never work. Well most of those people have never done it. First off you have the right size exhaust. You can pull air across 3-1k's on one run and 3-1k"s on another to the exhaust. just don't daisy chain them. What is the room in, a basement? If so a great way to cool the room is to cut 2-6" holes close to the floor,(same wall). Utilize the a/c from the rest of the basement. Your pulling in conditioned fresh air from a larger volume. A/c will work less. Air cooled lights still put out a great deal of radiant heat, but that can be dealt with by air circulation captured by room exhaust. Put your room exhaust on a timer that goes off 15 min after the lamps go off. and then come on a few time during the dark period. The room exhaust can be attached to a carbon filter. If your dead set on C02, your going to need a greenhouse controller, kinda pricey, but work it to avoid the headaches. I was reading your post, you said a closed loop? Have them T off to a filter?
 

headbandrocker

Well-Known Member
Very true indeed,My friend was running 1o x 1k in a/c hoods {closed} and ran ac and kept it cool while running co2,he had great temps.

My room is just a bedroom,so could cut 2 x 6" or 8" holes in wall,drawin cooler air from the hallway,would this work? I can also cut a hole in the door down low for extra air.
Would a window ac work? A friend has this forsale for 15oo,how would this do?
http://www.drillspot.com/products/48497/Movincool_CLASSIC_PLUS_26_Portable_Air_Conditioner

Im a liitle confused on the "t" on the filter,i have a 12"to double 8" Y that i could use.
Should i configure lights in 2 x rows of 3 lights or 3 rows of 2 lights?

Much thanks for you help!
 

abellguy

Active Member
You ever noticed that there are so many that say you can't do that! You'll never be able to do that, that will never work. Well most of those people have never done it. First off you have the right size exhaust. You can pull air across 3-1k's on one run and 3-1k"s on another to the exhaust. just don't daisy chain them. What is the room in, a basement? If so a great way to cool the room is to cut 2-6" holes close to the floor,(same wall). Utilize the a/c from the rest of the basement. Your pulling in conditioned fresh air from a larger volume. A/c will work less. Air cooled lights still put out a great deal of radiant heat, but that can be dealt with by air circulation captured by room exhaust. Put your room exhaust on a timer that goes off 15 min after the lamps go off. and then come on a few time during the dark period. The room exhaust can be attached to a carbon filter. If your dead set on C02, your going to need a greenhouse controller, kinda pricey, but work it to avoid the headaches. I was reading your post, you said a closed loop? Have them T off to a filter?

I would never post on any topic that I did not have direct involvment with or understand completley what is at hand when given questions regarding why I have posted about something.

Why I did not give suggestions on the normal way you "air cool" a room, notice I didn't say "air condition" a room, is that with that many lights and doing it the way he is suggesting, will you grow something? Yes, its a weed it's very hard to kill it once its going, but you won't have anything worth anything. I would assume since you are using 6000k watts you are not growing it all for yourself so I don't think the other people you are growing it for will want what would come out of a room like that.

My suggestion would be to use less lights untill you can afford to set your room up properly and get good return instead of crap! It is allways going to be a building process untill you stop growing thats just the way it seems to work:hump: hope this helps:joint:
 

headbandrocker

Well-Known Member
Hi,
I have done this before,and have run 4 x 1k in the room for a bit and now am doing the right thing and switching to 6.My results are fine,I have changed several aspects of the room and am just looking to dial it in.


I am having a licensed electrician do my room right.
I am interested in running an a/c and have seen a 24,ooo btu window for 5oo bucks, this should help the temps stay low.

I have 1 window,a wall,and a door i can cut for airflow,any suggestions are welcome,

My concerns are how to run the lights { 2 strings of 3,or 3 strings of 2}
And if a 24k btu window a/c will work,or if i need another kind of a/c like portable or mini split.

cea link:
http://boards.cannabis.com/growroom-setup/31194-sealed-room-3lbs-light.html
 

headbandrocker

Well-Known Member
I will only probably do 1 room now but next round 2 if my quarters work for this type of sealed/flipflop
I have 3 rooms {2 of equal size,1 smaller} all rooms connect
1 x 6 light flip flop {6 ballasts that will power 12 lights}
Im unsure if the central "lung room" needs to be in the middle of the two rooms,or if it could be off to the side,with longer duct to one room.


CEA - Closed Environment Agriculture?By Erik Biksa
A closed growing environment differs from the traditional grow room set-up in that it does not "connect" to the external environment and runs on a closed loop. Typically, grow room air is vented to the outside while outside air is drawn in to replace the air being evacuated. This creates an "open door" for a host of problems, and can limit the amount of control you can take over your growing environment. The open loop can be equated to greenhouse growing, except for the fact that you are supplying the light. In this scenario you are subject to the limitations, pests, and problems of a greenhouse environment. So, conceivably theses types of limitations can be minimized or eliminated if you consider taking the next step forward.
The following model should give the grower some insight on some key features in a closed-loop growing environment.
Ideally there are three rooms of about equal volume. Two of the three rooms will be dedicated to cultivation while the third, preferably more central room, will serve as a sort "lung" or "air buffering chamber". If possible, it's better to have a central room that with a greater volume than the other two rooms. This will increase the air-buffering capabilities that are key to running a closed-loop grow room. For this example, let's say that each room is about 1000 cubic feet in volume (10' X 10' X 10').
The central room will usually hold the HID ballasts, although they may also be located in another area. Keeping them in the central room will make servicing and maintenance a little easier. On the other hand, if you have a large number of ballasts, it will increase the amount of energy and equipment required to maintain optimal air temperatures. For lighting, a "flip-flop" lighting relay will be required.
In our example each room has about 10' X 10' of linear space. On rolling benches two 4' X 8' growing trays can be parked snuggly in each growing room. For intense lighting, each tray will be illuminated with two-1000W H.I.D. lamps. Alternatively, three-600W H.I.D. lamps per tray would provide more even light distribution for slightly less power consumption, but the initial investment would be increased. So, we have a total of four trays between the two rooms, this means that eight (or 12 with 600Ws) individual bulbs and reflector assemblies with lamp wire will be required. All lamp wiring will lead to the central room. Half the number of ballasts versus lamp assemblies is required when using the flip/flop relay. That's because the ballasts will run continuously 24/7. The photoperiod can either be 24 hours light in one room, or be divided to one 12 hour light cycle, per room, per 24 hours. This is accomplished by means of a 24 hour timer and lighting relay. Basically, the ballasts are running 24 hours a day and the timer can transfer the load from the ballasts to the lamps in one room or the other hence the "flip flop".
This "flip flop" is the central component or hub in this type of grow room. Not only will this occur with lighting, but also the entire climate will shift from the central room to either growing room on activation of the relay. Flip-Flop relay boxes can be purchased complete, or can be wired by a qualified electrician. Always consult local wiring codes.
The discussion on setting up the central room should help provide some clarification. Another key component in this installation is the A/C (air conditioning) unit. The number of lights you intend to run is the primary factor in determining the cooling capacity requirements of your A/C unit. Secondary factors to consider are whether or not you will be using a CO2 generator and if you will be keeping your ballasts in the central room or at a remote location. Carbon dioxide levels will need to enriched in this situation, as the intake of outside air is minimal or non-existent. This would rarely be done by tank and regulator, as multiple tanks would be need to be replaced very frequently. As a rule of thumb you should have about 3000 BTU's cooling capacity for every 1000 Watt H.I.D. lamp or 4000 BTU's cooling capacity for every 1000W H.I.D. lamp when using a fossil-fuel burning CO2 generator due to the extra heat created. This should also allow for a little leeway in accommodating your ballasts in the central room/"lung". It is worth noting that there are now water-cooled CO2 burners available to help mange the extra heat created.
In our example we will not be running more than 4-1000 Watt H.I.D. lamps simultaneously. Our growing rooms and central room are about 1000 cubic feet in volume each. For good CO2 buffering we will select a CO2 generator that will be able to handle about 2000 cubic feet (remember both growing rooms will never run at the same time, so the generator is only servicing the "lung" and one growing room at any one time). When selecting a CO2 generator, it is best to purchase a unit that will produce the most amount of CO2 in the least amount of time. A unit rated with a CO2 output of between 24 to 36 cubic feet per hour would fit the bill nicely. Smaller units could be used, but would be running for considerably longer to replenish CO2.
So, that's four 1000 watt lights with CO2 and ballasts to cool at around 4000 BTU cooling capacity each, for a total of about 16,000 BTU's required. Since not all appliances operate at 100% efficiency we should factor in another 20% to 30% for a total cooling requirement of about 20,000 BTUs (16,000 X 1.25=20,000).
Traditional residential air conditioners require an exhaust discharge, usually out the back of the unit (you can modify this type of unit with a transition and connect a discharge hose for venting to outdoors). Some of the more modern residential models are portable, and have a factory-installed exhaust discharge hose. These units can satisfy the requirements of smaller set-ups, but diminish the "closed-loop" due to venting requirements. Remember, we want to limit the set-up to the least amount of connection to the outside world as possible.
For our calculated cooling requirements, a hydronic finned heat exchanger is best suited for the application. These appliances are available from some indoor garden supply retailers or from residential heating and cooling suppliers. They are essentially a furnace-type housing containing a blower unit and a radiator core. You need to have an inexpensive, vast, and cold source of water to operate these units. To keep the water as cold as possible, the water usually runs to waste 24/7 through the radiator coil. When temperatures rise, the blower unit is thermostatically activated to run. This draws air through the water-cooled radiator core and discharges it, effectively cooling the air. If attempting to conserve water, a solenoid opens the water intake only when the fan is activated. However, the drawback is that the water usually needs to run for a period in order to get as cold as possible, influencing the cooling ability of the appliance. As mentioned, the water running through the radiator core usually drains to waste. If your water is metered, this can become very costly and may be considered wasteful. This makes a good case for setting-up near cold-water fed spring, glacial lake, or mountain fed water body. The key advantages to using this type of A/C over a conventional residential model is that they offer significantly greater output, do not require a discharge to the outside, and use minimal electricity (only for the fan). There are larger units of this style that use water to cool a refrigerant system. The units that have refrigerant use considerably greater amounts of electricity (60AMPS at 240V) but have tremendous cooling capacity and offer some of the same advantages as the smaller, non-refrigerant charged aforementioned units.
The cooling unit should be wired to a good quality thermostat wired higher up on the wall in the central room/"lung".
The central room should also be out-fitted with an activated carbon filter(s), humidifier, de-humidifier, infra-red-CO2 "sniffer", and the previously mentioned CO2 generator (or tanks), relay/timer unit ("flip-flop"), and air-conditioning unit.
The activated carbon filter is outfitted with an in-line or blower fan of the appropriate CFM rating (dependent on filter size). The fan continuously draws the room air through the activated carbon and back into the environment. This scrubs the air clean of any contaminants (such as mildew spores, etc) and unwanted odors. Maintaining a healthy aerial environment is key in this situation, because YOU are conditioning the air for your plants and not depending on the air quality mother nature provides from outside intake air. Remember, that when you draw air in from the outside you are bringing in spores, insects, etc. along with the fresh, cooler air (a gateway for many pests). Controlling humidity while cooling with outside air can also be a problem. Even with a de-humidifier it's hard to keep the growing environment at 50% R.H. when the outside air is 90% R.H.! How about cooling your room when the outside air is above 80°F?
The dehumidifier and humidifier should also be kept in the central room and each should be independently wired to the appropriate controller for the appliance (a de-humidistat for the de-humidifier, and a humidistat for the humidifier.) Whatever you do, don't set them at the same level (ie 50%R.H.). If you do, you will probably have both appliances competing with each other, causing them both to run more or less continuously. For example you might set the de-humidifier (activates on rise) to 65% R.H. and set the humidifier to 35% R.H. (activates on drop). Some A/C units remove a lot of humidity from the grow-room, even to the point where it can be detrimental, hence the need for the humidifier. Make sure that your de-humidifier is capable of removing enough moisture from the air in a short period of time. You may consider installing more than one unit. Actively growing plants can transpire a lot of water. Usually this moisture is removed with the heat when exhausted to the outdoors. In this situation, it has to be condensed and removed in a closed environment.
An infra-red CO2 monitor/doser connected to your source of carbon dioxide will maintain your pre-set CO2 levels in the central room which is acting as an air buffering chamber. As the air in the room is circulated to one of the growing rooms and returns (closed loop) the CO2 monitor measures the density of the air, and will trigger the CO2 generator to activate once levels fall past the set point. It will then disable the CO2 generator once CO2 levels have been replenished.
The A/C unit is placed in the central room wired to a cooling thermostat (thermostat in same room). It will cool and circulate the air in the buffering /central room. When the temperature rises in the active grow room, the air from the grow room is exhausted into the central room, and if required, it may cool, de-humidify or humidify, enrich with CO2, and scrub the air as it is being returned back into the active grow room.
When the relay is tripped by the timer and the lighting electricity is transferred into the other grow room, the controlled air from the central room will also be transferred simultaneously. This is accomplished by means of electronic dampers and an active fan. Like the ballasts, the fan will run continuously supplying either one growing area continuously or alternating equally between the two grow rooms with an active supply of air. When the flip-flop relay is activated (for lighting), it will close the circuit on one damper in a "Y" series or plenum (fan unit), while opening the circuit on the other damper. Each damper is connected via ductwork to it's own grow room (each damper serves it's own room off the same fan). Also connected to the flip-flop relay would be corresponding fans, located in each of the growing rooms. When lighting and air are transferred into either of the rooms, an exhaust fan in the room activated will be triggered, forcing the grow room air into the buffering/central room where it is conditioned to the pre-set parameters and returned back by another fan into the active grow room.
The actual grow rooms are not much different from most conventional grow rooms. However, climate controls and equipment are not incorporated into the growing rooms themselves because they have been installed in the central/buffering room. Each grow room will have an active (fan driven) central duct leading from the buffering room and an active (fan driven) central duct from the buffering room leading back into the grow room. Both fans run for the entire photoperiod and are activated and de-activated by the flip-flop appliance.
Each of the grow rooms should also be outfitted with an activated carbon filter set-up to scrub the air (as described in the buffering room set-up). They need not have the same capacity as the buffering room scrubbers, as they can be wired to the flip-flop relay to come on during dark hours. This will help protect your crop during dark hours from air-borne contaminants and help to control odors. This also helps to create negative pressure in the grow room during the dark-cycle, helping prevent odours from entering your living space.
Each grow room should also be equipped with a small exhaust fan set to run continuously during the dark cycle, discharging into the buffering room (which should be busy pre-treating air for the active grow room). In our example each of the grow rooms was about 10' X 10' so a small 250CFM fan should be enough.This will help to maintain negative pressure and serve to remove excess humidity and residual heat. If the growing area is well insulated (which it should be if you go through this much expense) you shouldn't need to heat the area during dark cycles. A maximum/minimum thermometer will tell you for sure.
Clearly, it takes more time and expense to construct a growing set-up similar to the model discussed. However, a lot of the typical problems associated with operating for longer durations can be avoided by closing the loop to your own personal Garden of Eden. If you manage the installation correctly you should be able to realize more consistent harvests with fewer pests, because you have closed the entrance to outside spores, temperatures, humidity, insects, and other pests.
 

abellguy

Active Member
The attachment by Erik states some good points on air cooling and exchange as well as how good water cooling is. You can achieve some of the same results with the ice box (for cheap air conditioning) and a good charcoal filter along with having any "in" covered by good filters. The bad part about the lung not mentioned is you have very little "fresh" air which in my opinion is very important, and the lung room is hot as all get out from all the ballasts/ac/chillers and such.

If you get a 24,000 btu window unit wich is large enough size wise for the room with proper air venting on your lights but it is only coming from one spot. When you have the room covered by all those lights you need air distributed around the room. Where the a/c is located the lights closest to it will eat up its good effect for the lights on the other side. It will run a lot and not be good for a long term solution. Better to have a custom central a/c put in that has ducting to different areas of the room according to where you put your lights. So you are delivering air where you need it not where you would have it in a traditional house environment.

As far as spacing on the lights that depends on how you are growing if you are using 4 x 8 tables of a sort as most do you should be arranging them in covering a 4x4 on each side, so I would guess that is three sets of two? If you are growing trees in pots you should space accoring to the room to get best coverage over all. Hope this helps:joint:
 

abellguy

Active Member
Another good thing to keep in mind is that it is much better to have to throttle your room back to your desired temp. rather than have to have everything working all out just to get sort of close to where you want your temp. to be at. Not only for the equipment but just for how your environment is inside your room when it is done that way!!
 

headbandrocker

Well-Known Member
Thanks able,
That actually helps alot,Im using ebb flow buckets,and waterfarm buckets in there so trees is the idea.If you have a good layout for treestyle please share!

I have seen the ice box coolers,but thought the chiller for them was arround a grand or so,do you know how much they are>I was attracted to the window unit cause im pretty broke and i could charge it on my home depot crd,but if central ac is the way to go im all ears!!

I am tired of my homemade window box,my intake and exaust are too close,and i just tried re-routing my 8'' vortex closer to the window and that shit was soooo f'in loud!

Able help me! i have about $15oo maxx and need:
1} co2 controller
2} Pay electrician to run 6o amp panel
3} Get ac of some sort
Maybe i can wait on the co2 controller for now,and just get a better ac...
 

FilthyFletch

Mr I Can Do That For Half
Not a hard thing but you may have bought the wrong stuff. Do not use reflectors with just the glass in them as they get hot and radiat heat. You want 6 kool tubes with clip on reflectors. These stay cool to the touch and no radiant heat. Thyen you daisy chain them together with flex ducting ad then one end is out of the room with a fan on it sucking fresh cool air in the tubes on the other end you have another fan at the opposit end pulling thr air out of the tubes and vent it either to the attic or out side. If you need to cool the room with co2 get a $400 mobile ac unit. They are at home depot have wheels and sit in the room closed. They have thier own drip catch inside and an attached vent hose that is 3 inch flex to exhaust but is not need. They will blow cold air even kept in the room completely.
 

FilthyFletch

Mr I Can Do That For Half
also like to add hopefully this is not a first grow as this is pretty ambitious for a novice. You will need to have a minimum 5 bedroom house if this is a single famil;y home to cover this usage as it will be a giant spike in the 12 hour cycles so it will stand out as a red flag. The general rule of saftey is 1000 watts per bedroom and your ok. You also will want to switch all your house bulbs to like 13-23 watt cfls to drop electricty use, insulate electric water heaters and turn there therms down. Unplug items not in use like vcr,dvd, stereo as they still suck juice in standby mode same as if fully on so unplug to not waste electric. You will need dedicated circuit breaker box for this and a 200 amp fuse box or you will blow fuses and cause fires. make sure outlets are gfi outlest to be safe and prevent melting. No low cost power strips or timers they must be able to handlke the amps your going to put through them so store bought stuff from homwe depot will not really do this
 

Mcgician

Well-Known Member
Filthy, I agree with most of what you said, but running cooltubes are not even close to traditional reflectors at putting down the light. Also, running them in series is NOT the way to go. It might look logical and clean, but the right way to do it is not to daisychain those things, but to dedicate one intake and exhaust outlet for every light. Daisychained together, the last couple lights in the chain get ridiculously hot still.
 

abellguy

Active Member
I would let co2 be your last thing you add. Get the room working 100% properly as far as air exchange which is #1 in indoor gardening and goes hand in hand with light intensity for #1 so both need to complement each other.

A chiller for your setup will be about a grand but you can order it on your card to someone elses place they are also used for aquariums. Then you have a/c spread around the room and cool lights and all, without venting a huge jet plume out the side of your house!!!! I don't think you will need a air conditioner with the ice box if you set it up properly with res. and chiller and manifolds all insulated well, the chiller and the ice boxes will be all you need. Need to make sure each light is fed from the cold water sorce. Hope this helps:joint:
 
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