730nm Flower Initiator vs Blue Dream - Outdoors

Hey again everyone!

i got some new pics snapped this evening! the big girl is not only noticeably ahead of the control plant, but the control hasn't even flipped yet. i know that it's a matter of her genetics at this point, as the Blue City Diesel and the Grand Daddy Purp that were on the patio near the control are already putting out lil bitty bud muff tops.

The experiment:


The control:

Buck123 said:

Im still fucked when it comes to how the fuck they work lol! Can u explain it in simpleton terms spliff??

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The Short Day Plant flowering period is actually controlled by the length of the night, for this example, short day plants begins to flower when the day and night reach a 12/12 balance.

Phytochrome: Under normal conditions when at sunset or when lights go dark, the amount of available Far RED light is quite small, it takes two hours for the Phytochrome to switch from it's Active or Pfr state to the Resting or Pr state (the night length effects Phytochrome which controls hormones to express growth and flowering). With our example, when the night is 12 hours long the Phytochrome is actually in the resting state for 10 hours.

The Flower Initiator, turned on for a few minutes before Sunset (really more like dusk) and left on until fully dark (outdoors and in the greenhouse) or a few minutes before lights out and then for another 5-7 minutes (indoors) the Phytochrome will switch states within mere seconds to a few minutes. This will make the plants "perceive" the night to be two hours longer than it actually is.

Indoors, under lights, when you go to 12/12, with the Flower-Initiator added, the plants will react as if the night is now 14 hours in length, the plants will respond as if winter is coming on strong and will initiate flowering robustly, once the flowers begin to show true form, about a week, one can lengthen the lit hours, gradually over a weeks time, back to 13.5 to 14 hours, the night to 10 to 10.5 hours in length (the plants will see the night as as being 12 - 12.5 hours long) which will result in better yields and quality, due to the extended lit periods. When you are ready to finish and harden the flowers, gradually decrease the lit period to 12 hours, but the plants will then react as if the night is now 14 in length as if, again, winter is about to come on.

Outdoors and in the Greenhouse once the Flower Initiator is put in action, as described above, when the night reaches 10 hours, the plant perceive that night as being 12 hours long, and they will begin to initiate flowers, you should increase the night length (set the lights to come on a bit earlier) as the days go by, until you reach the point where you prefer the flowering results, stay there until you feel it is time to finish, then increase the night length (FI light on earlier) to be perceived as 10 hours (your actual local night length should be at 12 hours or less at that point. For example, this will allow the flowering during the longer and stronger daylight of of August and September (In the Norcal outdoor test location), rather than a month or two later dependent upon specie type. You can determine your local sunset here.

More info can be found HERE, with links to supporting studies and Ed Rosenthal's remarks at his website. I hope this is OK!

Splifferous said:

Hi everyone!

i wanted to start up a little thread real quick about this "Flower Initiator" that i got a week or so ago and am putting to use on my outdoor Blue Dream.

about the plant:
she's exactly 4 months old, today, from seed. i started her indoors in April under a single Inda-Go Pro-200-PAR, at about a month or so, she moved into my 5x10 tent that at that time had 2 Inda-Gro Pro-420-PARs and 2 Pro-200-PARs and continued to veg 24/7 for another month or so. then she got transplanted to her present pot (the bottom half is filled with recycled Happy Frog soil that i re-amended, the top half is fresh) and moved to the back yard; about 2 months or so ago. she's all organic.

i don't have a totally complete photo-log of her, but i do have some that were taken over the past months that can still show her progress:

her day of breaking the surface:
View attachment 2297962

the following day:
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day 4:
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5/05:
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6/16: (the red arrow is pointing at her; this was the day she got transplanted to her current pot and moved outside.)
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7/21:
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7/28:
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8/06:
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8/16: construction on the pvc tripod to position the light is done, and waiting for dusk for the light to come on.
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8/16, just before the first activation of the Flower Initiator.
View attachment 2297971View attachment 2297972

8/16, about 15 minutes after the light has come on. it seems dim just at dusk, but by 9pm, it illuminated my shirt as i stand next to the plant in the dark. just gotta remember that our eyes aren't really sensitive to this light.
View attachment 2297973View attachment 2297974


well, that's it for now... i plan on posting updates at least on a weekly interval, but i will be sure to post the day that she shows floral crowning.

peace, everyone!

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The plastic pipe stand is a well thought out and constructed addition, nice work. My outdoor grower's test is into it;s third week, I will try to post some images and feedback here soon.

george xxx said:

Never heard of a flower initiator but red at that level is what a plant uses to signal flowering time.
If you use it on an outdoor plant, will the plant not just see this as being in the shade rather than a flower signal the sun will still continue the same light it had before the flower initator

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See the explanation on page three, it is the length of the night that control flowering the Flower Initiator makes the plant perceuve the night as being two hours longer.

Chronikool said:

Nice. How many watts is that floodlight?

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The light Spliff is using is the discontinued 10 ( Watt model, it has been replaced by a 15 (12-13) Watt model (just $20 more) to insure even better results and coverage at the website where they are exclusively sold.

Splifferous said:

Hey Buck! 730nm interacts with Phytochrome. check this out: http://glencoe.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/9834092339/student_view0/chapter41/animation_-_phytochrome_signaling.html. or if ya wanna read some nerdy, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome

George, it may trigger "Shade Avoidance Syndrome", and that would be indicated by excessive etoliation. according to my academic understanding of the topic, in a nutshell, the plant figures what to do based off of ratios of hormones, in this case Phytochrome. ie: the ratio of Pfrr, and also if the ratio is signaled across the entire plant, or just a portion (like a branch), and then that is assessed against overall PAR stimulation. the plant is roughly able to figure out if it's shading its own limbs, or if it's in shade, full sunlight, or dusk/dawn, and over time a circadian rhythm builds up in the hormone levelss. i waited for last night because it was the first night for my area that has a 10 hour duration. that plus the projected 2 hour night gain from dusk exposure to the 730nm should get her close enough to 12 hours to get her to flip. now, if i turned it on while the sun was beating down on her, then the increase of far red vs red might cause her to think that she's in some sort of shade (if it would even be perceptible to her vs the summer sun), but i only run it from dusk, and for just 2 hours. time will tell tho... time will tell...

heya Chronik: this wee lil beastie is a massive 9 watts (9 one watt diodes), and has a waterproof housing.

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Perfect interpretation and answer.

As advertised?

so far so good... it's advertised as experimental but so far it seems to be showing results in line with what i was expecting it to do. most likely i'll be discontinuing it outside in Sept, and will try it inside. will need to try to get another smaller tent for that, so i have a control. we'll have to see tho, it might be something that i want to continue outside longer than i'm thinking now...

Splifferous said:

so far so good... it's advertised as experimental but so far it seems to be showing results in line with what i was expecting it to do. most likely i'll be discontinuing it outside in Sept, and will try it inside. will need to try to get another smaller tent for that, so i have a control. we'll have to see tho, it might be something that i want to continue outside longer than i'm thinking now...

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Decisions, decisions!

so i remembered to take some outside pics today, before it got too dark

first, the control:

she honestly looks like she might be getting ready to flip either tomorrow or the day after. she's certainly taking her time about it tho...

and the big girl:

i would have taken more pics of her, but i ended up spotting a few leafhoppers on her that wanted to get taken care of... turned into a spinosad treatment for all the ladies outside.

anyhoo.. the big girl here is smelling very happy indeed, and it taking 4-5 gallons per day. i'll try to get a good video of her tomorrow, if i can

i'll be posting another update (a video update!) here later tonight, after i do a bho run and get some watering done...

the big girl is looking just great! the control is finally entering bloom but the comparison is just silly...

also, some more pics of the pink pistiled Blue City Diesel will be posted!

oh, also... leafhoppers... i was out there filming and saw a bunch of little baby leafhoppers all over the grass around the tarp... i hit them with Spinosad, as i have in the past... seems like it is kinda dodgy when it comes to being effective on these guys. anyone know of something safe to use potentially on cannabis (ideally i'd like to control them at a decent perimeter from the plants), that will hammer these little pests?

Here is a couple of organic sprays I have used with good results. The triple action plus kills eggs ,bugs and fights PM. I have sprayed it on flowers with no ill affects,can be used up to the day of harvest,not that I would though. The Monterey Iv only used in my veg room and on my lawn but seemed to shut down bug action in my yard very well and makes a nice addition to my spray selection. I have alternated the two and have had no bugs all summer

and here's the update of the Blue Dream!
[video=youtube_share;KFX6yj8G4m0]http://youtu.be/KFX6yj8G4m0[/video]

the big lady, still getting two hours of 730nm at dusk every night. based on what i look for to qualify as "in bloom", she's on day 11 here.


and the control plant; and based on what i look for, she's on day 3. from here on out it's going to be an insight into what the extra 2 hours (or not) of sleep per night can add up to.

The Ganga farmer said:

View attachment 2316682Here is a couple of organic sprays I have used with good results. The triple action plus kills eggs ,bugs and fights PM. I have sprayed it on flowers with no ill affects,can be used up to the day of harvest,not that I would though. The Monterey Iv only used in my veg room and on my lawn but seemed to shut down bug action in my yard very well and makes a nice addition to my spray selection. I have alternated the two and have had no bugs all summer

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thanks for that info! i'll check into those!

thelightstuff said:

See the explanation on page three, it is the length of the night that control flowering the Flower Initiator makes the plant perceuve the night as being two hours longer.

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I Agree, I understand the night cycle. perhaps not as well as you I went back and checked it over twice and compared it with notes I've been keeping. I have read some of Rosenthals' early work on this and what I can find for older experiments. I have avoided most later info because of difficulty sorting ad crap from fact. Your flower initator, after reading, is the same principal as older work. Its just worded differently. I'm looking for more info on effects of far red range. Last year I tried to find far red lights for experimenting but could not locate a source. The effective range I was looking for in the notes I collected is 750nm to 780nm. 750 to 780 seems to be tightly regulated or limited in access unless you are an approved reasearch facility.
With the information you have is 730mn suppose to be optimum or is it limited to 730mn due to ease of access? Over the past year I have seen LED becomming available at 730mn but assumed they fell short
You seem to be pleased with your results so far Good results make the world go-round

With the information you have is 730mn suppose to be optimum or is it limited to 730mn due to ease of access?

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730nm is the best way to go here!

some science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome
http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/phytochrome.shtml

guod said:

730nm is the best way to go here!

some science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome

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Thats a good read. More up to date in comparison to most of what I've read. The graf for Oat phytochrome absorption spectrum is the kind of thing I'd like to see for cannibus plants.

http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/phytochrome.shtml

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Not sure how much of this is accurately applicable to cannibus. Lettuce seed in soil is one of few plants dependent upon soil surface light penetration/satruation for good germination. Cannibus seeds germ quite well in the dark.



http://www.ehow.com/list_6693076_effects-light-plant-germination.html

george xxx said:

I Agree, I understand the night cycle. perhaps not as well as you I went back and checked it over twice and compared it with notes I've been keeping. I have read some of Rosenthals' early work on this and what I can find for older experiments. I have avoided most later info because of difficulty sorting ad crap from fact. Your flower initator, after reading, is the same principal as older work. Its just worded differently. I'm looking for more info on effects of far red range. Last year I tried to find far red lights for experimenting but could not locate a source. The effective range I was looking for in the notes I collected is 750nm to 780nm. 750 to 780 seems to be tightly regulated or limited in access unless you are an approved reasearch facility.
With the information you have is 730mn suppose to be optimum or is it limited to 730mn due to ease of access? Over the past year I have seen LED becomming available at 730mn but assumed they fell short
You seem to be pleased with your results so far Good results make the world go-round

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730nm was selected based on a synthesis of the available literature pointing out that exposure to 660nm triggers the Phytochrome to switch from the Pr (Resting, Night time) to the Pfr (Active, Daylight) state, conversely 730nm triggers a state switch from Pfr (Active, Daylight) to Pr (Resting, Night time).

At sunset, which is earlier than dusk, the Phytochrome begins it's slow two hour transformation from the active to resting state and, as you are aware, with the 730nm light it switches quickly in seconds to minutes.

Application of Far RED light makes for rapid flower and stem growth, but not much internodal stretching. Some people might have a very limited space to work in, with a short ceiling height. According to Ed Rosenthal, on his mjgrowers website, the use of a blue light for a few minutes after the Far RED light turns off, will counteract the tendency to gain height produced by the Far RED light. A micro 10 watt blue booster light should do the trick for up to 8' X 8'.

850nm was tested, it produced feeble results, but mostly caused stretching. 730nm and 850nm can inhibit germination of a number of seed types, not so much with Cannabis.

In the test I am close to, with no controls, the plant perceived apparent night hours have been increased slowly, trying to find the length that produces the best flower growth rates, hoping to hold it here more or less for a few weeks, then make a larger notable jump to a shorter apparent night length (to the plants), hoping to get them to finish fast and hard. The upcoming video remarks are subjective and based on many years of users experience with the same strains and location. Thus far it is reported to be well ahead of all earlier harvest experiences. The 1st. report video will be posted Monday, having some fun with impersonator voices and an attempt at some humor.

We have been using an Online Resource to determine the local official sunrise and sunset to use as the basis for adjusting the timer.

Some interesting experiments can be made indoors, like making the total day longer once flowers fully initiate, running 16 - 18 lit hours and then 9.5 hour off, with the flower initiator on for a few minutes before lights out, and then maybe another 10 minutes after lights out, the plants should still flower strongly like with a 11.5 hour night, and flower profusely in the elongated "days". My bet is for a big gain in yield and quality. I hope to have some user reports with this radical approach some time soon.

It is easier concept to accept that a 14 hour day with 10 hour nights (making it 12 with the Flower Initiator) has yielded beneficial results already.

guod said:

730nm is the best way to go here!

some science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome
http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/phytochrome.shtml

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Perhaps you might like to see this YouTube of an Outdoor Flower Initiator test (730nm).

hey everyone, been really busy recently, but i still managed to get some videos shot yday that for some reason i wasn't able to link here because my computer was not allowing me to access the site... in any event, whatever it was is resolved now, so here they are.

the experimental plant:
[video=youtube;OojN4sCJpFg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OojN4sCJpFg[/video]
on day 22 of bloom, forced with the Flower Initiator. still using the FI for 2 hour durations at sundown, adjusted weekly for correct timing.

and some pics to compensate for the lack of focus in the video...