About Those Beliefs You're Ashamed of Holding..

rosecitypapa

Active Member
Make no mistake, the mechanisms behind fire-walking are well understood and well documented. The physics theory behind why fire-walkers are not harmed makes replicable predictions that explain whats happening, without the added assumption that consciousness is involved.

One theory works within the known laws of thermodynamics, the other introduces new information which must cause reexamination of everything learned about physics so far. The added assumption is not necessary, so why prefer it?
Ok, so tell me why the discrepancy between Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics and why the latter is causing a reexamination of the former?

Just for kicks Heisenberg, what's you take on crop circles?


Do you understand what the definition of 'religion' is?

How would one use science as religion?
Apparently to you, I do not.

As simply as being a dogmatic description of reality, self-righteous in it's existence and it's proclaimed benefit for EVERYONE.


That isn't the definition of 'perfect'. What you seem to be doing is taking words and ascribing your own personal definition to them, then calling it a day..
Of course, that's how I consciously create meaning in my life. I'm defining the terms as I use them for my own subjective experience of an 'objective' reality that science claims exist.



First, perfection is 100% subjective. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", similarly, perfection is as well.

What about our 'design' flaws? If humans were perfect, why would we have these?

-humans with glasses (eyes, clearly imperfect)
-hearing aids (ears, imperfect)
-pace makers (heart, imperfect)
-diseases
-baldness
-ego
-apendix
-midgets are perfect to you?
I'll state it again; my definition of perfection is a dynamic state that includes the state of improvement. In each of those cases, one could either start that one is flawed and essentially try to get from 'bad' to 'good'. Or in those cases, one could start that the state is perfect just the way it is and improvement would be even better - going from 'good' to 'better'.


Right, and science does absolutely nothing to hinder human curiosity, infact, completely on the contrary, science promotes and improves upon human curiosity.

I've heard this argument plenty of times before, essentially what you're saying is "if something sparks an interest in someone, or leads someone to discover something, such as human intuition, a hunch or a gut feeling, that thing is automatically good, and can further be trusted/accepted/utilized in future science experiments." I have pointed out the flaws in this reasoning. Your intuition, your hunches AND your gut feelings are NOT SCIENTIFIC. It doesn't matter if that's what led you to a new discovery. The ends do not justify the means unless you properly use the scientific method.
Actually I'm not saying that at all. I can understand that is what you heard. To clarify, the point that I'm making is that the scientific method is of tremendous value. Intuition and gut feelings are at the heart of discovering new ways of thinking, they also have their limitations that scientists are all too quick to point out. When it comes down to it, is the world more beautiful and mysterious or less so? We could use either religion or science as our reason.

No, watch the second video, that's why I posted two..

The reason people don't burn their feet is because of physics and preparation, not because they're altering their state of mind somehow and "believing" they won't burn their feet. Carbon (which the what the embers of the fire they're walking on is made of) is a poor conductor of heat, so it doesn't transfer the heat from the coals to the feet very well.
I've heard the standard explanation plenty of times, it wouldn't work for me when facing those coals. Maybe it'll work for people that put science on the same pedestal that religion used to occupy.
 

zvuv

Active Member
“We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because that's only in that way can we find progress.” Richard Feynman.

Intuition can be seriously wrong. When Galileo argued that the Earth spun on its axis, people knew intuitively he was wrong. Intuition is important but without someway of checking the accuracy of what it tells you, it's about as dangerous as it is useful. As often as not, scientific discoveries contradict our intuition.

Talented scientists and mathematicians depend heavily on their intuition in their work. They start with a hunch. But that's just the start. The idea must then be developed to the point where it can be tested against the facts and most 'great ideas' fail at this point. We hear all about Einstein's flashes of brilliant insight. What is usually passed over is the many years of study and disciplined rigorous training that it took to develop this kind of intuition and then, more importantly, the years of meticulous work and calculations it took to convert his ideas into a testable scientific hypothesis. We rarely hear about the vast number great insights that didn't pan out.

People often mistake a feeling of certainty for knowledge. "I just know it's so" is a response I have heard too often. In fact you don't know. If you can't justify your belief, it's not knowledge. It's just a belief. The Scientific Method is essentially an epistemology - a standard for deciding what can be accepted as knowledge. It is the only rational, useful method ever devised for checking our ideas about the world we live in. It is one of the most important developments in human thought and it came very late in our intellectual history. Galileo in the 16th century was the first known practitoner of the Scientific Method in Western culture. Before him there were no scientists in the modern sense of the word. ( Avicena, an Arab living in the 10th century, described the SM but it was not taken up by the culture of that time.) With a few, childishly simple experiments, Galileo demolished Aristotle's theories on Mechanics which had dominated Western thought for 2000 yrs.


Some important ideas in the SM are:

1. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer. (Most of the time it's the only good answer)
2. The facts trump any theory. (Every scientific theory is constantly at risk of being shown false by the next experiment)
3. If there is no way an idea could be shown to be false it's useless.
4. It's not enough to explain what is already known, a theory must predict new information.
5. While it is possible to prove with certainty that an idea is wrong, it is never possible to prove with the same certainty that it is the truth.

This is a very loose description and not meant to be a rigorous or complete description of the Philosophy of Science.

An interesting consequence of #2 is that in the scientific sense, there can be no such thing as a supernatural event. No observation can ever be counted as a 'Violation of the Laws of Nature'. Nature is the law and whatever she does is right. If we see something that contradicts what we thought we knew about nature, we get to rethink our ideas. In the meantime, the answer must be 'We don't know'.

(Just in case anyone raises this old saw: Einstein did not fail math. He was a very strong mathematician. If you read his papers you will find them deeply mathematical as is all of physics since the 19th century. He had formidable mathematical skills, he just wasn't an Einstein in math.)
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Since I've done firewalking and can speak from personal experience, you certainly have a point. However the only thing that got me across those coals was 'getting in state' as opposed to the scientific explanation of why I was in no danger. In contrast, if the science is sound, then why do so many get burned if they are not in the proper mental state?
Ahh, a loaded question. Your premise assumes the conclusion. The question is simply, why do so many get burned. The answer is that not all the coals are burned down. The dynamics of fire-walking make it unlikely to get burned, but not impossible. When someone is burned, it is then attributed to their mental state ex post facto. This is just a form of confirmation bias. Does anyone ever get burned for reasons other than improper mental state? If so, how do we distinguish between the two?


Ok, so tell me why the discrepancy between Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics and why the latter is causing a reexamination of the former?

Just for kicks Heisenberg, what's you take on crop circles?
Classic physics apply to decoherent systems, quantum physics apply to coherent systems; they are not in competition. I did not mean to imply that if a result causes us to question the fundamentals of an entire field of research we should automatically dismiss it. Indeed, such an event may point to undiscovered knowledge. But I was speaking about two competing theories which make the same predictions and equally explain the evidence. One makes no more assumptions that necessary, the other goes on to assume human consciousness plays a part. My question was, since that extra assumption causes us to question everything we know, and is not necessary to explain the evidence, why favor it?

I can explain my toaster by the heat radiating from the elements and cooking the bread. I can then say the heat can not cook the toast without first gaining permission from an invisible, weightless demon that lives inside. I can then say that sometimes areas of the toast get burned, and that is evidence that permission was not properly sought from the demon before turning on the toaster. Both theories explain what's happening, one makes assumptions not necessary. Which should we favor?

Crop circles are man made creations, 100% of the time, unless you are talking about simple crude circles that are a result of confused animals walking in circles or fungus rings rotting the crop.

Please read about anomaly hunting.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
Actually, I would view it as human perfection. I don't subscribe to the idea of 'original sin' or that we are flawed in any way. Personally, I think humans are perfect. Perfection defined as a dynamic state of being that includes the capacity/ability to improve upon itself.
Dude we eat and breathe out of the same hole in our face. How fucked up of a design is that? I think anyone that has choked to death would vehemently disagree with you.
 

rosecitypapa

Active Member
“We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because that's only in that way can we find progress.” Richard Feynman.

Intuition can be seriously wrong. When Galileo argued that the Earth spun on its axis, people knew intuitively he was wrong. Intuition is important but without someway of checking the accuracy of what it tells you, it's about as dangerous as it is useful. As often as not, scientific discoveries contradict our intuition.

Talented scientists and mathematicians depend heavily on their intuition in their work. They start with a hunch. But that's just the start. The idea must then be developed to the point where it can be tested against the facts and most 'great ideas' fail at this point. We hear all about Einstein's flashes of brilliant insight. What is usually passed over is the many years of study and disciplined rigorous training that it took to develop this kind of intuition and then, more importantly, the years of meticulous work and calculations it took to convert his ideas into a testable scientific hypothesis. We rarely hear about the vast number great insights that didn't pan out.

People often mistake a feeling of certainty for knowledge. "I just know it's so" is a response I have heard too often. In fact you don't know. If you can't justify your belief, it's not knowledge. It's just a belief. The Scientific Method is essentially an epistemology - a standard for deciding what can be accepted as knowledge. It is the only rational, useful method ever devised for checking our ideas about the world we live in. It is one of the most important developments in human thought and it came very late in our intellectual history. Galileo in the 16th century was the first known practitoner of the Scientific Method in Western culture. Before him there were no scientists in the modern sense of the word. ( Avicena, an Arab living in the 10th century, described the SM but it was not taken up by the culture of that time.) With a few, childishly simple experiments, Galileo demolished Aristotle's theories on Mechanics which had dominated Western thought for 2000 yrs.
Interesting points, although I would say in the first example that you mention a better metaphor would be when learning to come out of a stall in flying. That thing that you call intuition in Galileo's example I have no idea if it was indeed so, my guess it's those pesky non-consciously challenged and non scientifically derived thoughts that turned into unconscious beliefs.

It's true, the state of consciouseness that we can individually get to is certainty, we need another pov in agreement to get to reality.


Some important ideas in the SM are:

1. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer. (Most of the time it's the only good answer)
2. The facts trump any theory. (Every scientific theory is constantly at risk of being shown false by the next experiment)
3. If there is no way an idea could be shown to be false it's useless.
4. It's not enough to explain what is already known, a theory must predict new information.
5. While it is possible to prove with certainty that an idea is wrong, it is never possible to prove with the same certainty that it is the truth.

This is a very loose description and not meant to be a rigorous or complete description of the Philosophy of Science.

An interesting consequence of #2 is that in the scientific sense, there can be no such thing as a supernatural event. No observation can ever be counted as a 'Violation of the Laws of Nature'. Nature is the law and whatever she does is right. If we see something that contradicts what we thought we knew about nature, we get to rethink our ideas. In the meantime, the answer must be 'We don't know'.
Cool, would you mind explaining the existence of the bacteria flagellum from a SM's pov?
http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/origins/GRAPHICS-CAPTIONS/Flagellum.html


Ahh, a loaded question. Your premise assumes the conclusion. The question is simply, why do so many get burned. The answer is that not all the coals are burned down. The dynamics of fire-walking make it unlikely to get burned, but not impossible. When someone is burned, it is then attributed to their mental state ex post facto. This is just a form of confirmation bias. Does anyone ever get burned for reasons other than improper mental state? If so, how do we distinguish between the two?
Sorry, I just not buying the 'carbon poor conductor of heat' theory. I go through the winters with wood heat, which means I build fires and work with coals more than I like to. The heat coming from a coal can burn things without touching them, can ignite wood through proximity. Granted it's not the timing like a momentary footstep. But in this case, yes science can create a plausible explanation. In many cases, it's the simple explanation that is better description of reality. But in this case the simple explanation is surprisingly far-fetched.


Classic physics apply to decoherent systems, quantum physics apply to coherent systems; they are not in competition. I did not mean to imply that if a result causes us to question the fundamentals of an entire field of research we should automatically dismiss it. Indeed, such an event may point to undiscovered knowledge. But I was speaking about two competing theories which make the same predictions and equally explain the evidence. One makes no more assumptions that necessary, the other goes on to assume human consciousness plays a part. My question was, since that extra assumption causes us to question everything we know, and is not necessary to explain the evidence, why favor it?

I can explain my toaster by the heat radiating from the elements and cooking the bread. I can then say the heat can not cook the toast without first gaining permission from an invisible, weightless demon that lives inside. I can then say that sometimes areas of the toast get burned, and that is evidence that permission was not properly sought from the demon before turning on the toaster. Both theories explain what's happening, one makes assumptions not necessary. Which should we favor?

Crop circles are man made creations, 100% of the time, unless you are talking about simple crude circles that are a result of confused animals walking in circles or fungus rings rotting the crop.

Please read about anomaly hunting.
I'd be willing to buy the 'The dynamics of fire-walking make it unlikely to get burned, but not impossible.' theory over the 'crop circles are man-made creations 100% of the time' theory.

If you can look at this complexity and still believe that ropes, strings and people made these, I don't think that is a stellar example of keeping an open mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Z3kZr4fNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM5pL5tuuOI&feature=related

Your joking yes?
Crop circle being formed

This is not proof from my pov, however it is more likely imho, than pranksters working undiscovered at night over the last twenty years knocking out 20 of these things in a season with ropes, strings and sticks.

Crop_circles_Swirl.jpg
Ropes, strings and sticks? Overnight? Come'on!?



Dude we eat and breathe out of the same hole in our face. How fucked up of a design is that? I think anyone that has choked to death would vehemently disagree with you.
Actually, I don't think they would. It's my belief that we all choose the time and manner of our death. (on some level of awareness)
 

MixedMelodyMindBender

Active Member
"Actually, I don't think they would. It's my belief that we all choose the time and manner of our death. (on some level of awareness)"

I recently received an email from my ex wife informing me that my "day is coming" and you will never see it hit you. BUT, the thing is, is that she was only half right for once :)

While no man alive can see his own fate, every man alive HAS HIS DAY COMING.....She had no comment to my regurgitation of ignorance :)

If we all choose our time and manner I am sure my dearest friend Darrell Abbott would not have been murdered, or anyone for that matter :)
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I'd be willing to buy the 'The dynamics of fire-walking make it unlikely to get burned, but not impossible.' theory over the 'crop circles are man-made creations 100% of the time' theory.

If you can look at this complexity and still believe that ropes, strings and people made these, I don't think that is a stellar example of keeping an open mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Z3kZr4fNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM5pL5tuuOI&feature=related

Your joking yes?
Crop circle being formed

This is not proof from my pov, however it is more likely imho, than pranksters working undiscovered at night over the last twenty years knocking out 20 of these things in a season with ropes, strings and sticks.

View attachment 1666706
Ropes, strings and sticks? Overnight? Come'on!?





Actually, I don't think they would. It's my belief that we all choose the time and manner of our death. (on some level of awareness)
Specific heat Try placing a frying pan over the fire-walking path and see what happens when you step on it. Same amount of thermal energy, better conduction. Maybe first you should get some steaks or otherwise raw meat, heat it up to body temperature, and strap it to your feet. See if the meat is harmed when you walk across the embers. In fact this has been done many times, and the answer is no, there is no significant burn damage. If the meat is dead and not conscious, how does it manage to remain unharmed?


Saying 'I can not understand how humans could make crop circles' does not mean humans aren't able to do it. The 'crop circles being formed' video is am admitted hoax, as are the first ever recorded (complex) circles. Doug Bower and Dave Chorley confessed to making over 250 circles in the 70's and 80's. If you look at the history of crop circles, complex patters didn't show up until these two started making them, and they got more complicated each year after. Isn't it odd that a mysterious force felt the need to step in and mimic hoaxers?

Here is an example of a circle that was created by men overnight. This photo is not in dispute; it was planned and made by men who are pointing to no mysterious force as an explanation.



In fact, here is an entire website documenting the groups who do these circles, who sell books and guides on how you can do it to. They document circles being made. So again, just because you can not fathom how it could be done by humans, doesn't mean it can't.

From Skeptoid
In fact, it's hard to find any picture of crop circle investigators where everyone in the shot is not holding a camera or binoculars or something, finger on the trigger. So my question to Colin Andrews would be, "Did you not ask these crop circle investigators who witnessed the formations why, in every single case, they failed to produce a single photograph or frame of videotape showing this wonderful creation?" If I were Colin Andrews, these investigators are not those whose testimonials I would flaunt to the world. Instead I would tell them they screwed up, and probably even accuse them of trying to hoax me. How can they spend all day and night camped out on the hilltop, finger on the video camera trigger, witness a crop circle forming, and produce only a lengthy list of verbal reports, and no video? Inexcusable for a conscientious researcher.

There is one famous video of white balls of light actually creating an entire crop circle, in seconds. It's called the Oliver Castle video, and you can find it on YouTube. It was made by John Wabe in 1996 or 1997, a partner in a small video production company called First Cut Studio. He took some simple video of the completed crop circle, and ran it through their Quantel Paintbox. In a video subsequently broadcast on the Discovery Channel and on National Geographic, he showed how he rubber-stamped other pieces of the wheatfield background to "erase" the crop circle, and then un-erased it bit by bit underneath some flying white dots that he added. He then added some shake and some artificial generation loss to the video, and presto, a great hoax was done.

It seems keeping an open mind often requires one to be uninformed.
 

rosecitypapa

Active Member
Saying 'I can not understand how humans could do this' does not mean humans aren't able to do it. The 'crop circles being formed' video is am admitted hoax, as are the first ever recorded (complex) circles. Doug Bower and Dave Chorley confessed to making over 250 circles in the 70's and 80's. If you look at the history of crop circles, complex patters didn't show up until these two started making them, and they got more complicated each year after. Isn't it odd that a mysterious force felt the need to step in and mimic hoaxers?

Here is an example of a circle that was created by men overnight. This photo is not in dispute; it was planned and made by men who are pointing to no mysterious force as an explanation.



In fact, here is an entire website documenting the groups who do these circles, who sell books and guides on how you can do it to. They document circles being made. So again, just because you can not fathom how it could be done by humans, doesn't mean it can't.
Those two? Have you seen their method?

Well I looked through the site, maybe it's me but I can't find a single crop circle that they claimed they have made. It looks more like a parody site to me. They claim to make circles and then show crop circles and their audience can infer that they made the circles they posted. I see no process shots. If you can show me just ONE in process documentation of self-proclaimed crop circle makers that is of the same class and caliber of the recent crop circles, I'm sold.

I'll even not consider:
rare radioactive isotopes
plant abnormalities

I would especially be interested in the story of the men who made that circle that you use as evidence.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Those two? Have you seen their method?

Well I looked through the site, maybe it's me but I can't find a single crop circle that they claimed they have made. It looks more like a parody site to me. They claim to make circles and then show crop circles and their audience can infer that they made the circles they posted. I see no process shots. If you can show me just ONE in process documentation of self-proclaimed crop circle makers that is of the same class and caliber of the recent crop circles, I'm sold.

I'll even not consider:
rare radioactive isotopes
plant abnormalities

I would especially be interested in the story of the men who made that circle that you use as evidence.
Watch the Nat Geo documentary to see a circle being made in 5 hours, and read again about anomaly hunting. That site is not meant to debunk, but to celebrate the art. Part of the art is to maintain a mysterious nature, and the mystery also is necessary to avoid being charged for damaging crops, however they do occasionally show plans for the patterns they plan for the season, and they certainly show many pics of circles they made themselves, including some for corporations and advertisers, as well as from other groups. They even show formations they've made in sand without the slightest hint of human tracks. This article shows that even though they prefer to remain mysterious, they are not trying to fool anyone, and in fact get upset when others do. This includes those who claim anomalies are found at the circle sites.

From a different article
Interestingly, after more than a decade of study biophysicist WC Levengood has only recently noticed that the characteristic 'anomalies' (primarily lengthened nodes) of genuine crop patterns are also to be found in wind-damaged or 'lodged' crop. This would appear to negate Hasselhof's assertions, as it implies that there is nothing unusual in flattened crop displaying subtle physiological changes due to, say, phototropism or trauma. But with impressive illogic Levengood and his followers assert the precisely opposite: rather, the same supernatural force that makes the patterns also flattens indiscriminately, and what we would dismiss as weather-damage may be something mysterious.

So much for Occam's razor, but to compare this to a purely honest quest for knowledge using actual facts is to miss the point. To the outside world there is no real secret to the patterns' provenance. The science of cerealogy could really be as simple as discreetly mimicking (hoaxing) a pattern and observing how this generates the same effects and claims as the 'genuine' article. Only a fool would subsequently favour vague and apocryphal, low-grade evidence over a practical demonstration. But, here, truth is relative and answers are invariably obscured by 'blind eye' insulation from outright recognition, as if the spell will be broken by discovery.
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Neither do I because I feel I can explain why I believe what I do.

If you believed in fairies, people would think you're crazy because there's no evidence for the existence of fairies, you would feel ashamed and embarrassed no doubt to hold that belief. This, I feel, is the same reason believers feel embarrassed or ashamed or automatically take offense to anyone questioning their beliefs.
Not a single person that I've ever met who works with Fae is ashamed of the fact that other people don't think they exist, much less ashamed about their own "beliefs". That said, they also don't approach people with no knowledge on the subject and berate them about being wrong or stupid for not believing. (Or make posts on pot forums about it)
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Questioning is appropriate, as is challenging. Insulting someone's intelligence is never appropriate. Acting like you don't know this or don't know the difference is disingenuous.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Questioning is appropriate, as is challenging. Insulting someone's intelligence is never appropriate. Acting like you don't know this or don't know the difference is disingenuous.
I ask why someone believes the things they do, they give me reasons like faith or some shaky foundation they can't justify, these crazy beliefs harm people, so I think it's highly appropriate to tell someone exactly how I feel about it.
 

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
Actually, if I have my translations right and I believe it is. That saying about' turn the cheek' referred to an insult given back in those times. See, if you are right handed and slapped a person on the right cheek, you'd have to use the back of your hand, a very big insult back in those times.

It is an insult that challenges you to retaliate. It is an attempt to shame you and get you to either back down in utter humiliation or lash out and escalate the conflict.

It did not imply do good to other people (though I think that is a good idea) it implied, “I will not seek revenge because I am stronger than that”. It also says, I will not respond in shame because I have dignity in Christ.

Jesus said, turn the other cheek. Do good to those who hate you. Do not replay evil with evil. Do not seek revenge on those who wrong you.

What you seem to be saying is, "I'm am uneducated by choice and I do not tolerate any opinion that differs from my own. I answer reasonable doubt with unreasonable violence, despite it directly offending the teachings of Christ, and i'm proud of it."

Why haven't you defended your beliefs to yourself? You haven't applied reasonable doubt to what you believe, or at least examined why you believe it? If you have, then what's the problem with simply explaining to someone else the reasons for your beliefs?
 
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