advanced nutrients vs. fox farm

Well, All I can say is for me in my grow room I have experienced the best grow I have ever had.. The only thing I changed were my nutes... Also I am getting closer to 3/4 a gram per watt... I realize some of you mix up all your own home brew, I do not have the time for that and am happy to pay a little extra for someone elses science and work to make my life easier... With the profit I make the cost of the nutes are negligible and saving just $100.00 - $200.00 is not worth the extra effort... I would rather be fishing... If my whole life revolved around growing and nothing else I would learn to brew my own nutes, so like I said I am happy to pay extra for AN...PEACE

theloadeddragon said:

Sorry to say I can smell the bullshit. Your only pulling about a 1/2 gram per watt anyways... don't you ever wonder why?

What have your results been using other nutrients? I have seen the side by side comparrison between AN and a few other nutrient companies, and for the price its not anything special. Botanicare and GH have both outperformed AN.... both in quality and yields. Shit, even comparing AN to just using strait water, AN didn't contribute to a substantial increase in yield, and only a slightly marked increase in potency, did nothing for smell or taste at all.

As long as your happy though,

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NutriPlus is a newer company. Basically took ANs formulas, made them a little better, and sell them much cheaper. Really been pushing that product at the store. Look into it a little bit. I don't see one side-by-side proving one better than the other. There are too many variables, regardless of how good you followed directions on the bottle. If what you have works for you, and you are happy with what you get, then you've got the best nutes out there.

biggun said:

Well I am obviously not as smart as all you real horticulturist, I have no interest in mixing my own stew. So I am happy to pay the little extra for the AN products...The cost of using the AN products for my grow is almost $400.00. After all expenses including electric which cost me about $350.00 per month I am getting around 1200-1400 dried grams of bud every 9 weeks and that's 2 weeks of cure time... I am profiting almost $10,000 every 2 months from 2 1000's....The cost of the "Expensive" nute for me is negligible, especially since they work perfect every time.... All I can say is advanced Nutrients fully supports my Deep sea fishing habit....PEACE

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Thanks for the laughs.

Uncle Ben said:

Define "best ingredients". This is about plant nutrition, AN is into hocus pocus. 16 essential elements. There are no opinions, only facts relating to nutrition.

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There's a lot of different ways to provide the elements. They don't take a block of calcium and start grinding it up and adding the powder to water. You use a fertilizer salt. There's several pages in my hydroponics text devoted just to the various fertilizer salts that can be used. In particular the column that addresses solubility is interesting. It's been my experience that the more soluble salts tend to be more desirable and also more expensive.

That doesn't even address the different chelates that can be used in hydroponic solutions. They're quite expensive.

So I would define "best ingredients" as the ones that do the job with the greatest efficiency and reliability. There's a balance that must be struck between cost and effectiveness when designing a hydroponic nutrient formula (this is also discussed in Dr. Resh's book). Different companies would presumably draw the line between the two in different places, right?

hugetom80s said:

There's a lot of different ways to provide the elements. They don't take a block of calcium and start grinding it up and adding the powder to water. You use a fertilizer salt. There's several pages in my hydroponics text devoted just to the various fertilizer salts that can be used. In particular the column that addresses solubility is interesting. It's been my experience that the more soluble salts tend to be more desirable and also more expensive.

That doesn't even address the different chelates that can be used in hydroponic solutions. They're quite expensive.

So I would define "best ingredients" as the ones that do the job with the greatest efficiency and reliability. There's a balance that must be struck between cost and effectiveness when designing a hydroponic nutrient formula (this is also discussed in Dr. Resh's book). Different companies would presumably draw the line between the two in different places, right?

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Sound logic here.

And really, who the heck knows the difference between 'truth' and 'opinion'? I mean, Uncle Ben, for all of your great advice, in the end, it is your opinion and your version of the truth.

Everyone does their nute feeding differently - we can't all do the same things that a lab can do and we certainly can't be perfect all the time as a nute company does when they are testing their ingredients.

Personally, what works for me, is Advanced Nutrients. And I'm not going around telling people who don't agree with me that they're laughable. I don't really care. But for some reason, you seem to think that it's necessary to be a bit judgmental, rather than to just argue the facts.

And even facts are up for debate. After all, when you gets facts from ANY nute company, they could be suspect. They want you to buy their nutes, so it makes sense they're going to share the results that make their nutes look good. That's just good business and marketing practice.

So really, doesn't it make more sense to try out nutes, see how they work, and then start sharing your experience? With so many variables between growers, it makes sense to base ideas on experience.

And my experience is with AN - haven't been let down since. But if others have better experiences with other nutes, good for them. I just would hate to see others who just write off a nute because someone on these boards has an agenda, which seems to be the case from what I've seen. As soon as anyone begins to write about AN and how they like them, a few names come out and start to rip on them.

Shills? Probably. And that sucks for new growers who want to really learn the basics of growing - no matter what nutes they use.

*rant over*

treeburner said:

Sound logic here.

And really, who the heck knows the difference between 'truth' and 'opinion'? I mean, Uncle Ben, for all of your great advice, in the end, it is your opinion and your version of the truth.

Everyone does their nute feeding differently - we can't all do the same things that a lab can do and we certainly can't be perfect all the time as a nute company does when they are testing their ingredients.

Personally, what works for me, is Advanced Nutrients. And I'm not going around telling people who don't agree with me that they're laughable. I don't really care. But for some reason, you seem to think that it's necessary to be a bit judgmental, rather than to just argue the facts.

And even facts are up for debate. After all, when you gets facts from ANY nute company, they could be suspect. They want you to buy their nutes, so it makes sense they're going to share the results that make their nutes look good. That's just good business and marketing practice.

So really, doesn't it make more sense to try out nutes, see how they work, and then start sharing your experience? With so many variables between growers, it makes sense to base ideas on experience.

And my experience is with AN - haven't been let down since. But if others have better experiences with other nutes, good for them. I just would hate to see others who just write off a nute because someone on these boards has an agenda, which seems to be the case from what I've seen. As soon as anyone begins to write about AN and how they like them, a few names come out and start to rip on them.

Shills? Probably. And that sucks for new growers who want to really learn the basics of growing - no matter what nutes they use.

*rant over*

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I think UB's whole point is that salts are salts and plants don't give a shit if you paid a hundred bucks for a bottle of salts or you spent 4 dollars.

Let me illustrate the point a little better: Calcium Nitrate-----Calcium Nitrate

Both of these salts are exactly the same. Same exact molecular structure and concentrations. The salt on the left doesn't have any fancy marketing or packaging. The one on the right is all fancied up and has had the shit marketed out of it. You will soon recognize the one on the right because it has colorful packaging and has been marketed as having "superior absorption and solubility". The one on the left sells for $4.99 plus tax. The one on the right sells for $49.99 plus tax. Remember that underneath the packaging are the exact same compounds. Inexperienced gardeners will probably buy into the hype and colorful marketing, thinking the salt on the right must be superior. It costs more and is in a prettier container. And the maker claims that the salt on the right has "superior solubility and absorption". Superior to what? We all buy into fancy marketing and hype at some point. If AN gives you satisfactory results and you don't mind paying hundreds of dollars then you are free to do so. I'm using FF at the moment and like the results. I've tried many of the fertilizers that UB recommends and I like them as well. It's all about trying new things and finding what works best for YOU!

doc111 said:

I think UB's whole point is that salts are salts and plants don't give a shit if you paid a hundred bucks for a bottle of salts or you spent 4 dollars.

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Exactly. IOW, the body doesn't care whether the ions came from regarding taking vitamins. Organic is not superior to generic in the form of B12, biotin, C, etc. It's all the same.

I'm a horticulturist. Plant nutrition is all about truth, facts, not opinions. Opinions are for marihuana nerds that are too lazy to study what makes a plant tick, instead relying on someone like Advanced Shysters to tell them what to do and what to spend. It's a dependency thingie, not unlike the Democrat party that runs its platform on false pretenses only to create dependency.

If you're stupid enough to piss off your money on high priced marketing crap, then you deserve each other.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Thanks for the laughs.

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Whats so funny about that?

advanced nutes is the best non organic nute i've used. voodoo juice is the best root enhancer. their whole product line is great i've used it for years in hydro and havent found anything better. but im also with gardenboy organicare is a great product for soil im useing it now and could'nt be happier

Uncle Ben said:

Exactly. IOW, the body doesn't care whether the ions came from regarding taking vitamins. Organic is not superior to generic in the form of B12, biotin, C, etc. It's all the same.

I'm a horticulturist. Plant nutrition is all about truth, facts, not opinions. Opinions are for marihuana nerds that are too lazy to study what makes a plant tick, instead relying on someone like Advanced Shysters to tell them what to do and what to spend. It's a dependency thingie, not unlike the Democrat party that runs its platform on false pretenses only to create dependency.

If you're stupid enough to piss off your money on high priced marketing crap, then you deserve each other.

UB

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I'm not trying to argue that it matters what an ion's source was once it's in solution. Once in solution it's the same as any other ion of the same element.

What I'm saying is that it matters how you get the ions into solution. Insoluble salts would be a poor way to get that done since it would be difficult to get them to dissolve into solution in any real quantity. Highly soluble salts are easy to get into solution in high concentrations, but generally cost more than the salts that are less soluble.

Furthermore, it's important what both sides of the salt are made of. In layman's terms, salts are basically made up of something from the left side and something from the right side of the periodic table (there's more to it than that, but that's the simple explanation). You can't just add anything you like simply because it's soluble and has one of the nutrients you need. If the other half of the salt throws off the balance (or worse, has something harmful to your plants) it's not a good ingredient. Also, even if there's no harm to your plants you have to keep track of how all the ions will interact. It's no good to create a formula that contains ions that really, really want to bind up and drop out of solution.

So when you're talking about building a complete nutritional formula there's a lot to account for. If you add to that an interest in maximizing solubility not only in dissolution but long-term stability it gets even more complicated. There's a trade-off to be made between what is possible and what is practical.

In most things you can save money doing it all yourself, but no one can do everything. You can't make your own clothes, food, and everything else. There aren't enough hours in the day. Some people don't want to invest the time to grow their own cannabis at all. If we call them morons for paying someone else to do it we're hypocrites unless we don't pay anyone to do anything for us.

I pay to have water pumped to my house and the garbage hauled away. I could gather and haul my own water and cart my trash to the landfill myself. I'm not lazy and I'm not a sucker simply because I don't do that. I make a judgment call on what is worth doing myself and what is worth paying someone else to do.


Maybe we could agree not to judge other people by our own personal preferences? What isn't worth paying for to you isn't necessarily true for everyone else.

hugetom80s said:

I'm not trying to argue that it matters what an ion's source was once it's in solution. Once in solution it's the same as any other ion of the same element.

What I'm saying is that it matters how you get the ions into solution. Insoluble salts would be a poor way to get that done since it would be difficult to get them to dissolve into solution in any real quantity. Highly soluble salts are easy to get into solution in high concentrations, but generally cost more than the salts that are less soluble.

Furthermore, it's important what both sides of the salt are made of. In layman's terms, salts are basically made up of something from the left side and something from the right side of the periodic table (there's more to it than that, but that's the simple explanation). You can't just add anything you like simply because it's soluble and has one of the nutrients you need. If the other half of the salt throws off the balance (or worse, has something harmful to your plants) it's not a good ingredient. Also, even if there's no harm to your plants you have to keep track of how all the ions will interact. It's no good to create a formula that contains ions that really, really want to bind up and drop out of solution.

So when you're talking about building a complete nutritional formula there's a lot to account for. If you add to that an interest in maximizing solubility not only in dissolution but long-term stability it gets even more complicated. There's a trade-off to be made between what is possible and what is practical.

In most things you can save money doing it all yourself, but no one can do everything. You can't make your own clothes, food, and everything else. There aren't enough hours in the day. Some people don't want to invest the time to grow their own cannabis at all. If we call them morons for paying someone else to do it we're hypocrites unless we don't pay anyone to do anything for us.

I pay to have water pumped to my house and the garbage hauled away. I could gather and haul my own water and cart my trash to the landfill myself. I'm not lazy and I'm not a sucker simply because I don't do that. I make a judgment call on what is worth doing myself and what is worth paying someone else to do.


Maybe we could agree not to judge other people by our own personal preferences? What isn't worth paying for to you isn't necessarily true for everyone else.

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All of the fertilizers I use are completely water soluble. That's basic to any food.

I think you need to pry your lips off the AN Hype Teat and come back to the real world. Salts are salts, and all products I use (which are non-cannabis specific) do the job perfectly well. See my 4 cola topping thread for the latest.

No one is making anything. I buy blended foods from Walmart and commercial ag suppliers. Hard to beat Peters, Dyna-Gro, Plantex, etc.

UB

Hard to beat Peters, Dyna-Gro, Plantex, etc.....

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Very hard to beat indeed.

hey guys let me know what you think about the nutrients that i have been using for my veg stage.
I have been mixing all these nutrients in water cal-mag, superthrive, aqua shield, hydrozen and pure blend. Let me know what you think... I havent had really any big problem with it so far.

MinDimension said:

hey guys let me know what you think about the nutrients that i have been using for my veg stage.
I have been mixing all these nutrients in water cal-mag, superthrive, aqua shield, hydrozen and pure blend. Let me know what you think... I havent had really any big problem with it so far.

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Well if you aren't having any problems them something your doing is right.

ya good point alot. well maybe i can get better too. but thanks anyway bigsourD

Uncle Ben said:

All of the fertilizers I use are completely water soluble. That's basic to any food.

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Of course, but the point I've been making, repeatedly (and apparently futilely) is that there are degrees of solubility.

Take ordinary table salt. You can get a fair amount of that dissolved in water before it just won't absorb anymore. Some salts are less soluble than that, some are more soluble.

It makes a difference. Pretending it doesn't is silly.

Uncle Ben said:

I think you need to pry your lips off the AN Hype Teat and come back to the real world.

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This whole attitude is really off-putting.

It is possible for someone to see the world differently than you do without them being wrong, stupid, out of touch with reality, or any of the other things you so frequently insinuate.

Doing me the common courtesy of perhaps NOT assuming I'm some dupe of a marketing scheme. The way you state it may not be quite as rude as saying "you're a freaking moron who believes everything you're told", but it's pretty close.


Many people hold opinions that differ from yours. Not all of them are morons. A little less jumping to that particular conclusion would serve you very well in getting them to consider your opinion. After all, why should they respect your side of the argument if you don't respect them?

Uncle Ben said:

Salts are salts, and all products I use (which are non-cannabis specific) do the job perfectly well.

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Salts are salts, lights are lights, water is water...

Yes, you can use any word to define itself.

However, not every light is the same. Not all water is the same. And not all salts are the same. Incandescents don't grow plants well. Hard water is not good for plants. Not everything that falls into a given category is the same as everything else in that category.

Lots of things can be defined as "cars", but they all have particular tasks they excel at.

A decent hydro fert is made of a bunch of different salts, some buffers, and some chelates. Every single macro and micro nutrient has at least half a dozen different salts that can be used to provide it. There's thousands if not millions of different possible combinations there. Not every variation will create a significantly different product, but enough of them can.

In many ways the buffers and chelates actually play a bigger role in the quality of a nute than the nutrients do.

found this vid on youtube . from a channel i subscribe to . i currently use AN and still found it funny. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rqGzkqHneg&feature=related

they are both WAY overpriced and WAY overrated. I would use something cheaper. with FF and AN you're paying for logo's and advertisments more than actual nutrients.

odbsmydog said:

they are both WAY overpriced and WAY overrated. I would use something cheaper. with FF and AN you're paying for logo's and advertisments more than actual nutrients.

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They both have a couple products that are worth using .

Neither is the best out there though, that is for sure .

odbsmydog said:

they are both WAY overpriced and WAY overrated. I would use something cheaper. with FF and AN you're paying for logo's and advertisments more than actual nutrients.

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Of course. I just bought (3) 25 lb. bags of a 35-5-10 with EDTA chelated micros, highly soluble and pure salts (Plantex brand) for $20.08 a bag and that was delivered to my door. That's less than a buck a pound. I'm using this food occasionally on an outdoor flowering pot plant.

UB