...All Things Vero...

Scotch089 · Jun 4, 2016

2x3'ish with 3 cxa3070s @700mA does just fine vegging, whatever the equivalent would either vero,citizen, or cree, as long as you're around 60-70w you'll be fine. (I hardly ever run those maxed out at 92w)

15pw/sqft I think is what supra recommended "back in the day." @captainmorgan check me on that?

Edit: 250w for veg is a lot of light for a 2x3' lol

kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

Evil-Mobo said:
I have (2) MW 240H-1050B drivers sitting here.......

Just looking for an affordable DIY option and looking outside the Cree box as with the Citizen thread @JorgeGonzales started, but I know nothing about Vero.............

I just want more even coverage across the canopy instead of certain high PPFD reading hot spots to be able to say hey look what my light can do. But as I said vero's are a new beast to me so learning here.......

If I went this route this light would be preparing my plan ts to flower under the 315 W LEC which is not going anywhere lol.....

Oh. You can definitely run 4-6 of any of the 36v cobs on that driver I think(I don't remember the exact output voltage of that driver) but I would honestly go with v22s for $14 they're more efficient than the citizen 1212s less that the 1818s but those are 54v I think. So less would fit on the driver and they're expensive.

If you did vero 18s you could run a lot of them due to the 29v forward vs 36. But your efficiency wouldn't be that great (around 38-40%) but 250 watts would blow away vegging a 2x3 at that efficiency, or even if you went down to 32-35% that area would still go crazy vegging. If you're planning on running that driver, watts are watts and I would just buy the cheapest efficient cobs and blast it out. Lol.

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Evil-Mobo · Jun 4, 2016

kmog33 said:
Oh. You can definitely run 4-6 of any of the 36v cobs on that driver I think(I don't remember the exact output voltage of that driver) but I would honestly go with v22s for $14 they're more efficient than the citizen 1212s less that the 1818s but those are 54v I think. So less would fit on the driver and they're expensive.

If you did vero 18s you could run a lot of them due to the 29v forward vs 36. But your efficiency wouldn't be that great (around 38-40%) but 250 watts would blow away vegging a 2x3 at that efficiency, or even if you went down to 32-35% that area would still go crazy vegging. If you're planning on running that driver, watts are watts and I would just buy the cheapest efficient cobs and blast it out. Lol.

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So should I get a different driver then? I don't have to run the one I have and they're hard to find right now so I'm sure I could off load them easily they're bnib........

I did a test this AM shutting off half the T5 bulbs in the veg tent to include the Pure UV and the temps are so much lower in the room and the tent lol....... the portable A/C doesn't even need to work as hard...........with summer around the corner here where I am at it gets hot and humid so heat is a very real concern for me......

vahpor · Jun 4, 2016

I'm looking for info/deets/walk thru/videos on soldering to the Vero 29s. Anyone have or know of something off hand? I'm goin diggin on !yt now..

kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

Evil-Mobo said:
So should I get a different driver then? I don't have to run the one I have and they're hard to find right now so I'm sure I could off load them easily they're bnib........

I did a test this AM shutting off half the T5 bulbs in the veg tent to include the Pure UV and the temps are so much lower in the room and the tent lol....... the portable A/C doesn't even need to work as hard...........with summer around the corner here where I am at it gets hot and humid so heat is a very real concern for me......

That driver would be great to flower that area but for veg is a bit overkill IMO. It would work great just unecesssry. You could put a pot on it and dim it down though and it would function for both veg and flower and you'd have pretty awesome Efficiency during veg dimmed to 525ma or whatever

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JorgeGonzales · Jun 4, 2016

kmog33 said:
Oh. You can definitely run 4-6 of any of the 36v cobs on that driver I think(I don't remember the exact output voltage of that driver) but I would honestly go with v22s for $14 they're more efficient than the citizen 1212s less that the 1818s but those are 54v I think. So less would fit on the driver and they're expensive.

If you did vero 18s you could run a lot of them due to the 29v forward vs 36. But your efficiency wouldn't be that great (around 38-40%) but 250 watts would blow away vegging a 2x3 at that efficiency, or even if you went down to 32-35% that area would still go crazy vegging. If you're planning on running that driver, watts are watts and I would just buy the cheapest efficient cobs and blast it out. Lol.

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No dude, for the last time, V22s ARE NOT MORE EFFICIENT THAN THE 1212!!!1

*pant pant* *faint*

Whew. Seriously. You need to figure out why you think that and then undo whatever part of your brain insists it's true. I say this as a friend and non-troll.

I like Bridgelux, I'm excited by the gen7 specs, and Citizens are basically unobtanium so it's sort of a moot point...but the entire CLU048 line shits on anything gen6 from Bridgelux. Not because Bridgelux sucks, but because they have an update coming very shortly.

Evil-Mobo · Jun 4, 2016

JorgeGonzales said:
No dude, for the last time, VERO 22s ARE NOT MORE EFFICIENT THAN THE 1212!!!1

*pant pant* *faint*

Whew. Seriously. You need to figure out why you think that and then undo whatever part of your brain insists it's true. I say this as a friend and non-troll.

I like Bridgelux, I'm excited by the gen7 specs, and Citizens are basically unobtanium so it's sort of a moot point...but the entire CLU048 line shits on anything gen6 from Bridgelux. Not because Bridgelux sucks, but because they have an update coming very shortly.

So then basically "right now, today" it's Citizen and Cree for the DIY guy......?

kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

JorgeGonzales said:
No dude, for the last time, VERO 22s ARE NOT MORE EFFICIENT THAN THE 1212!!!1

*pant pant* *faint*

Whew. Seriously. You need to figure out why you think that and then undo whatever part of your brain insists it's true. I say this as a friend and non-troll.

I like Bridgelux, I'm excited by the gen7 specs, and Citizens are basically unobtanium so it's sort of a moot point...but the entire CLU048 line shits on anything gen6 from Bridgelux. Not because Bridgelux sucks, but because they have an update coming very shortly.

Go look at the spreadsheets. V22s over 1212. Vero 18s lose to the 1212s. We went over this.

I actually guess it's back and forth depending on which spectrum you grab with the old versions of the bridgelux by about 3 watts for either company. The new versions of the bridgelux should pull further ahead though.

Citizens cobs also have more blue in them than the bridgelux kind of falsifying the actual lumens per watt because the added blue boosts the lumens per watt it would seem.

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kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

4000k v22 and clu1212

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JorgeGonzales · Jun 4, 2016

kmog33 said:
Go look at the spreadsheets. V22s over 1212. Vero 18s lose to the 1212s. We went over this and you're wrong. Again.

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I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind knowing something is true, and you not understanding why. That makes me sad.

kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

JorgeGonzales said:
I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind knowing something is true, and you not understanding why. That makes me sad.

I use and have tested both. On top of the color temps being more blue all around with the citizens, bridgeluxs new chips, if they get even a 5% boost in efficiency will beat the citizens across the board with their low cri versions(the citizen efficiency is drastically effected on the higher Cri models). And now are releasing the voltage class to compete with the 1818s. So we will see how that turns out.

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JorgeGonzales · Jun 4, 2016

kmog33 said:
I use and have tested both. On top of the color temps being more blue all around with the citizens, bridgeluxs new chips, if they get even a 5% boost in efficiency will beat the citizens across the board with their low cri versions(the citizen efficiency is drastically effected on the higher Cri models). And now are releasing the voltage class to compete with the 1818s. So we will see how that turns out.

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I don't know what data sheets you are looking at, or how you are testing, but the V22 loses by a rather large margin across the board according to Bridgelux's own data sheets. Cross my heart and hope to die.

kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

JorgeGonzales said:
I don't know what data sheets you are looking at, or how you are testing, but the V22 loses by a rather large margin across the board according to Bridgelux's own data sheets. Cross my heart and hope to die.

large margin?

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kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

10lpw 3k, 5 lpw in 4K, loses in 5k, lower k citizens do better. But they have the larger blue ratio which doesn't really benefit the plants much as 3500 and 3000k I'm kind of looking for all the red that's in the spectrum.

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JorgeGonzales · Jun 4, 2016

Friend, you have understand that if you aren't looking at the 1080ma row on the Bridgelux data sheet, under Tc=25C, you aren't doing a proper comparison. That is the only point of overlap on these data sheets.

You need to pay very close attention to Tc, Tj, and steady state vs pulsed measurements when trying to compare two cobs. Normalizing to watts or lumens is also important, and 1080ma vs 1050ma in this case gets both cobs around 37W, and gets the picture across.

It's a slaughter, ugly and bloody. Even a 6500K V22 doesn't keep up with a 2700K 1212 in lm/W, let alone in umols/J. It's right there, you just have to learn how to read it. I am sure the lightbulb moment is coming for you.

kmog33 · Jun 4, 2016

JorgeGonzales said:
Friend, you have understand that if you aren't looking at the 1080ma row on the Bridgelux data sheet, under Tc=25C, you aren't doing a proper comparison. That is the only point of overlap on these data sheets.

You need to pay very close attention to Tc, Tj, and steady state vs pulsed measurements when trying to compare two cobs. Normalizing to watts or lumens is also important, and 1080ma vs 1050ma in this case gets both cobs around 37W, and gets the picture across.

It's a slaughter, ugly and bloody. Even a 6500K V22 doesn't keep up with a 2700K 1212 in lm/W, let alone in umols/J. It's right there, you just have to learn how to read it. I am sure the lightbulb moment is coming for you.

I am comparing the citizens at 1080 vs bridgelux at 1050. The biggest gap is on the 3000k at 10lpw. The 4000k 5lpw and the 5000 K bridgelux win by 5-7 lpw. I would bet, as the test current is lower on the citizens, that if you pushed them to say 1500ma the efficiency would drop off even faster than the bridgelux. Again the lower temps have a higher blue ratio in the citizens which would add to lumens, but hurt spectrum. On top of all that, the new bridgelux versions will be out in a week or so yeah? And a 5% increase in efficiency would put them a good bit ahead of the citizens. At least the 1212s. The 1818s are a different story.

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JorgeGonzales · Jun 4, 2016

Tc=25C. You are almost there.

I am not commenting on individual spectrums, because the Citizen is ahead on all of them.

If you have a modern version of Excel, you can try the Citizen spreadsheet, which would perhaps make it clearer since it is interactive and makes it easy to compare to Bridgelux's testing choices.

guod · Jun 4, 2016

and let me also mention the different Thermal Resistances from Junction to Case
(o.o8 for the vero29) against (0.34 for the 1212). so the Heatsink will stay cooler for the 1212.

Evil-Mobo · Jun 4, 2016

guod said:
and let me also mention the different Thermal Resistances from Junction to Case
(o.o8 for the vero29) against (0.34 for the 1212). the Heatsink will stay cooler.

So you say the vero is the better COB in this instance?

JorgeGonzales · Jun 4, 2016

guod said:
and let me also mention the different Thermal Resistances from Junction to Case
(o.o8 for the vero29) against (0.34 for the 1212). the Heatsink will stay cooler.

Yeah, the larger Citizen 1818 is a respectable .17 C/W. The fairest comparison is with the stabilized DC performance chart and Citizen spreadsheet set to Tc=85C, which leaves the Tj at 100+:

Spoiler alert, the Citizen still comes out ahead. They have excellent temp/current droop moving up.

...All Things Vero...

Would you consider buying a VERO after reading through some of the posts?

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