Amendment 14 article 3

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Trouble is, the FS has been a farm team for judges who bring a distinct casuistry to originalist doctrine.

yep, this may be used later by originalists to do all sorts of harm to our current government, or ability to vote, our civil rights, the ability to govern and be the legal justification for all other mayhem the so-called originalists would do. All in the name of restoring the US Republic as it was originally founded. Government by, for and of white wealthy males.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
yep, this may be used later by originalists to do all sorts of harm to our current government, or ability to vote, our civil rights, the ability to govern and be the legal justification for all other mayhem the so-called originalists would do. All in the name of restoring the US Republic as it was originally founded. Government by, for and of white wealthy males.
FS and Heritage Foundation are reservoirs for the cultural pathogen called whitelash.


It’s a soft civil war.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
yep, this may be used later by originalists to do all sorts of harm to our current government, or ability to vote, our civil rights, the ability to govern and be the legal justification for all other mayhem the so-called originalists would do. All in the name of restoring the US Republic as it was originally founded. Government by, for and of white wealthy males.
MAU Make America Ungovernable, except if republicans are in power. On this one they've got themselves in a logical box if they wanna save Trump and I dunno why they would, Ginny Thomas aside. They are Mitch's judge's if anybody's and Mitch wants Donald gone ASAP, they are conservative, but are basically homeless with MAGA running the GOP, the party left them like so many others.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
MAU Make America Ungovernable, except if republicans are in power. On this one they've got themselves in a logical box if they wanna save Trump and I dunno why they would, Ginny Thomas aside. They are Mitch's judge's if anybody's and Mitch wants Donald gone ASAP, they are conservative, but are basically homeless with MAGA running the GOP, the party left them like so many others.
… because their long-term goal is to preserve a flawed idea of what America is and should stay: a white male straight evangelical capitalist stronghold.

The inevitable logical consequence is that they are working from a position of unique power to institutionalize apartheid.

Regressive taxation, a legal and law enforcement double standard regarding skin color, the gutting of public schools and reproductive rights —

is soft genocide. They’ve got a more subtle final solution in place.

If their insurrection succeeds at the hands of a smoother operator* than their previous point man, expect a more direct assault on “the brown invaders”.

*Few aren’t. Gan, Boebs, Pedobear and Kitara come to mind.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I thought you had to be found guilty of a crime before being charged but that's not how Democrats think it works.
"It is The Constitution man."

As in the Constitution, you can not run for president if you are under of age. No being charged with being under age, no trial, that is all she wrote. The Constitution says you can not run if you took part in an insurrection against the Constitution. A number of judges already found that Trump did take part in the insurrection. The Constitution is what is disqualifying Trump, not the democrats. They are just upholding the Constitution. Because you know, if Trump gets a free pass then in the future if another president attempts an insurrection (s)he will know from past precedence they will get off.
 

DinGrogu

Well-Known Member
"It is The Constitution man."

As in the Constitution, you can not run for president if you are under of age. No being charged with being under age, no trial, that is all she wrote. The Constitution says you can not run if you took part in an insurrection against the Constitution. A number of judges already found that Trump did take part in the insurrection. The Constitution is what is disqualifying Trump, not the democrats. They are just upholding the Constitution. Because you know, if Trump gets a free pass then in the future if another president attempts an insurrection (s)he will know from past precedence they will get off.
Take a look at Section 1. See the underlined part.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Take a look at Section 1. See the underlined part.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Disqualification is a disability, not a crime and neither the statute of limitations nor double jeopardy apply either. A criminal conviction is not required as a prerequisite and neither is impeachment. Being an insurrectionist is grounds for disqualification and a court has found Trump to be an insurrectionist as a finding of legal fact. We await the wisdom of the SCOTUS.
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
Take a look at Section 1. See the underlined part.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Dude, wrong one:
F4ON6JMaMAEY5o3.jpg

i left it big just for you, pay attention to the last line
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
interesting read:

The Supreme Court can’t punt on Trump’s disqualification without threatening the Constitution

hen the Supreme Court reviews Colorado’s decision to exclude President Trump from the state’s ballot, it will be delving into wholly uncharted territory.

The Supreme Court has never interpreted the constitutional provision prohibiting former office-holding insurrectionists from holding future office. Several leading constitutional scholars argue that, in part for this reason, the constitutional ban cannot be enforced without prior congressional enactment of guiding directives. The high court may consider this option to provide a welcome off-ramp.

But the position that the constitutional ban on insurrectionist office holders is not activated absent congressional legislation is not only incorrect, it also threatens the very foundations of America’s constitutional system.

While our governmental system embraces democracy, our Constitution is anything but democratic. Our elected representatives cannot repeal any part of the Constituion by majority vote. Our system was grounded not only in democracy but in the need for checks and balances.

The Framers recognized that democracies were always vulnerable to factions and tyranny. They therefore constructed the Constitution as a check on legislative and executive decisions. It was also decided early on that the unrepresentative, unaccountable courts would have final say as to the meaning of the Constitution’s directives. After all, what would be the point of imposing limits on majorities if those majorities had final say as to what those directives mean?

To undermine that long-accepted system is to threaten the delicate balance between democracy and constitutionalism. Without some constitutional directive to the contrary, it is dangerous for the Supreme Court to defer to Congress in the interpretation of the Constitution.

Section 3 of the 14th Amendment provides that no one who has “previously taken an oath … as an officer of the United States … to support the Constitution of the United States” shall hold “any office … under the United States” if they have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States. It further provides that “Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.”

Certain scholars, noting that the 14th Amendment’s Section 5 vests in Congress the power to enforce the Amendment’s directives through legislation, have argued that Congress must first enact statutory guidelines for Section 3 to be triggered. This position is wrong for two reasons.

First, it is inescapably inconsistent with Section 3’s explicit text. As already noted, Section 3 states that the ban may be “remove[d]” by a vote of two-thirds of both houses of Congress. If Section 3’s ban doesn’t exist prior to congressional legislation, there would of course be nothing to be “remove[d]” in the first place. Congress’s role is confined to the option to remove that ban, not by enacting legislation, which requires only a majority vote, but by a supermajority vote. The approach advocated by these scholars (as well as in Trump’s brief), in sharp contrast, argues that Congress prevents the ban from going into effect simply by refusing to legislate.

More importantly, the scholars’ approach ignores the special role served by the Constitution. The Constitution is a limit on majorities; it makes no sense, then, to have the Constitution’s enforcement turn on the whim of majorities. The 14th Amendment’s directives are framed in mandatory terms, not subject to majoritarian whim. They are designed to protect minorities from majoritarian pressures and the majority from dictators. It is therefore the role of the Supreme Court, not Congress, to interpret the 14th Amendment’s provisions.

True, Congress has the power to implement the 14th Amendment’s directives through legislation, but those directives stand independently, whether or not Congress acts. Requiring congressional legislation before the implementation of mandatory constitutional protections would turn our system on its head. Like the due process and equal protection guarantees, the insurrectionist ban (save for its explicit exception for a limited congressional role) stands on its own as a protection against democracy degenerating into dictatorship.

To leave that protection’s existence in the hands of a simple majority of a politically-driven Congress would be to tempt fate. The Framers showed they intended no such thing.

On rare occasions, the Supreme Court has invoked the “political question” doctrine, which allows it to refuse to interpret provisions whose text doesn’t lend itself to clear understanding. But while the words of Section 3 include several possible ambiguities, they are no more cryptic than the First Amendment’s guarantee of “freedom of speech” or the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of “equal protection,” both of which the court interprets regularly. True, the Supreme Court has never previously interpreted Section 3 — but every provision is at some point interpreted for the first time.

The 14th Amendment’s ban on insurrectionist office holders, like its guarantees of equal protection and due process, is designed to protect us against tyranny imposed by a majority. It would undermine the foundations of our constitutional system to place that provision’s enforcement at the mercy of majoritarian will.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
interesting read:

The Supreme Court can’t punt on Trump’s disqualification without threatening the Constitution

hen the Supreme Court reviews Colorado’s decision to exclude President Trump from the state’s ballot, it will be delving into wholly uncharted territory.

The Supreme Court has never interpreted the constitutional provision prohibiting former office-holding insurrectionists from holding future office. Several leading constitutional scholars argue that, in part for this reason, the constitutional ban cannot be enforced without prior congressional enactment of guiding directives. The high court may consider this option to provide a welcome off-ramp.

But the position that the constitutional ban on insurrectionist office holders is not activated absent congressional legislation is not only incorrect, it also threatens the very foundations of America’s constitutional system.

While our governmental system embraces democracy, our Constitution is anything but democratic. Our elected representatives cannot repeal any part of the Constituion by majority vote. Our system was grounded not only in democracy but in the need for checks and balances.

The Framers recognized that democracies were always vulnerable to factions and tyranny. They therefore constructed the Constitution as a check on legislative and executive decisions. It was also decided early on that the unrepresentative, unaccountable courts would have final say as to the meaning of the Constitution’s directives. After all, what would be the point of imposing limits on majorities if those majorities had final say as to what those directives mean?

To undermine that long-accepted system is to threaten the delicate balance between democracy and constitutionalism. Without some constitutional directive to the contrary, it is dangerous for the Supreme Court to defer to Congress in the interpretation of the Constitution.

Section 3 of the 14th Amendment provides that no one who has “previously taken an oath … as an officer of the United States … to support the Constitution of the United States” shall hold “any office … under the United States” if they have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States. It further provides that “Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.”

Certain scholars, noting that the 14th Amendment’s Section 5 vests in Congress the power to enforce the Amendment’s directives through legislation, have argued that Congress must first enact statutory guidelines for Section 3 to be triggered. This position is wrong for two reasons.

First, it is inescapably inconsistent with Section 3’s explicit text. As already noted, Section 3 states that the ban may be “remove[d]” by a vote of two-thirds of both houses of Congress. If Section 3’s ban doesn’t exist prior to congressional legislation, there would of course be nothing to be “remove[d]” in the first place. Congress’s role is confined to the option to remove that ban, not by enacting legislation, which requires only a majority vote, but by a supermajority vote. The approach advocated by these scholars (as well as in Trump’s brief), in sharp contrast, argues that Congress prevents the ban from going into effect simply by refusing to legislate.

More importantly, the scholars’ approach ignores the special role served by the Constitution. The Constitution is a limit on majorities; it makes no sense, then, to have the Constitution’s enforcement turn on the whim of majorities. The 14th Amendment’s directives are framed in mandatory terms, not subject to majoritarian whim. They are designed to protect minorities from majoritarian pressures and the majority from dictators. It is therefore the role of the Supreme Court, not Congress, to interpret the 14th Amendment’s provisions.

True, Congress has the power to implement the 14th Amendment’s directives through legislation, but those directives stand independently, whether or not Congress acts. Requiring congressional legislation before the implementation of mandatory constitutional protections would turn our system on its head. Like the due process and equal protection guarantees, the insurrectionist ban (save for its explicit exception for a limited congressional role) stands on its own as a protection against democracy degenerating into dictatorship.

To leave that protection’s existence in the hands of a simple majority of a politically-driven Congress would be to tempt fate. The Framers showed they intended no such thing.

On rare occasions, the Supreme Court has invoked the “political question” doctrine, which allows it to refuse to interpret provisions whose text doesn’t lend itself to clear understanding. But while the words of Section 3 include several possible ambiguities, they are no more cryptic than the First Amendment’s guarantee of “freedom of speech” or the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of “equal protection,” both of which the court interprets regularly. True, the Supreme Court has never previously interpreted Section 3 — but every provision is at some point interpreted for the first time.

The 14th Amendment’s ban on insurrectionist office holders, like its guarantees of equal protection and due process, is designed to protect us against tyranny imposed by a majority. It would undermine the foundations of our constitutional system to place that provision’s enforcement at the mercy of majoritarian will.

They are closing the door on one possible "out" for Trump, one train of legal thought. IMO it will be hard for them to find an acceptable "reason" not to disqualify Trump, especially the conservative federalist judges and that is all of them, even Clarence does the dance. We will see, the arguments begin in a week or so and they will ponder it as the GOP primaries progress...
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Take a look at Section 1. See the underlined part.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So why can an 18 year old not run for president?
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Although I would be happy if Trump couldn't run which would give the Republicans a way better chance of winning and getting rid of the loser we have now, it's not going to happen. But if it did people would further distrust Democrats and the whole political and judicial process.
But what is worse? Republicans not trusting Democrats or forever enshrining in legal doctrine that you can rebel against the Constitution and you will not get your hand slapped?
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Here is the amicus brief filed by historians on disqualification, for the benefit of the originalists on the court. It is very readable, a story of the intentions of the frames by scholars, lest there be any doubt.

II. THE DRAFTING AND RATIFICATION OF
SECTION THREE
After the war, a congressional investigation
uncovered substantial and disturbing evidence of
continued hostility in the southern states. Congress
drafted Section Three out of concern about the
security of the republic and, in revision, both
strengthened and extended it. The bite of Section
Three contributed to the initial refusal of the states
of the former Confederacy to ratify the Fourteenth
Amendment.
A. A Congressional Inquiry Discovered
Widespread Rebelliousness in the
South
When the Thirty-Ninth Congress began its second
session in December 1865, it immediately confronted
the problem of the return to power of exConfederates. To address this and other challenges of
Reconstruction, including the vital matters of equal
citizenship and representation, Congress established
a fifteen-man Joint Committee on Reconstruction.48


 
Last edited:

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Lawrence: Historians’ brief teaches Supreme Court 14th Amendment’s real history

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell analyzes new filings to the Supreme Court as it prepares to hear oral arguments in Donald Trump’s challenge of a ruling by the Colorado Supreme Court that found he was ineligible for the state’s primary ballot after violating Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
 

ooof-da

Well-Known Member
But what is worse? Republicans not trusting Democrats or forever enshrining in legal doctrine that you can rebel against the Constitution and you will not get your hand slapped?
I can’t pull up that article w/o paying for it which isn’t happening
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
interesting read:

The Supreme Court can’t punt on Trump’s disqualification without threatening the Constitution

hen the Supreme Court reviews Colorado’s decision to exclude President Trump from the state’s ballot, it will be delving into wholly uncharted territory.

The Supreme Court has never interpreted the constitutional provision prohibiting former office-holding insurrectionists from holding future office. Several leading constitutional scholars argue that, in part for this reason, the constitutional ban cannot be enforced without prior congressional enactment of guiding directives. The high court may consider this option to provide a welcome off-ramp.

But the position that the constitutional ban on insurrectionist office holders is not activated absent congressional legislation is not only incorrect, it also threatens the very foundations of America’s constitutional system.

While our governmental system embraces democracy, our Constitution is anything but democratic. Our elected representatives cannot repeal any part of the Constituion by majority vote. Our system was grounded not only in democracy but in the need for checks and balances.

The Framers recognized that democracies were always vulnerable to factions and tyranny. They therefore constructed the Constitution as a check on legislative and executive decisions. It was also decided early on that the unrepresentative, unaccountable courts would have final say as to the meaning of the Constitution’s directives. After all, what would be the point of imposing limits on majorities if those majorities had final say as to what those directives mean?

To undermine that long-accepted system is to threaten the delicate balance between democracy and constitutionalism. Without some constitutional directive to the contrary, it is dangerous for the Supreme Court to defer to Congress in the interpretation of the Constitution.

Section 3 of the 14th Amendment provides that no one who has “previously taken an oath … as an officer of the United States … to support the Constitution of the United States” shall hold “any office … under the United States” if they have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States. It further provides that “Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.”

Certain scholars, noting that the 14th Amendment’s Section 5 vests in Congress the power to enforce the Amendment’s directives through legislation, have argued that Congress must first enact statutory guidelines for Section 3 to be triggered. This position is wrong for two reasons.

First, it is inescapably inconsistent with Section 3’s explicit text. As already noted, Section 3 states that the ban may be “remove[d]” by a vote of two-thirds of both houses of Congress. If Section 3’s ban doesn’t exist prior to congressional legislation, there would of course be nothing to be “remove[d]” in the first place. Congress’s role is confined to the option to remove that ban, not by enacting legislation, which requires only a majority vote, but by a supermajority vote. The approach advocated by these scholars (as well as in Trump’s brief), in sharp contrast, argues that Congress prevents the ban from going into effect simply by refusing to legislate.

More importantly, the scholars’ approach ignores the special role served by the Constitution. The Constitution is a limit on majorities; it makes no sense, then, to have the Constitution’s enforcement turn on the whim of majorities. The 14th Amendment’s directives are framed in mandatory terms, not subject to majoritarian whim. They are designed to protect minorities from majoritarian pressures and the majority from dictators. It is therefore the role of the Supreme Court, not Congress, to interpret the 14th Amendment’s provisions.

True, Congress has the power to implement the 14th Amendment’s directives through legislation, but those directives stand independently, whether or not Congress acts. Requiring congressional legislation before the implementation of mandatory constitutional protections would turn our system on its head. Like the due process and equal protection guarantees, the insurrectionist ban (save for its explicit exception for a limited congressional role) stands on its own as a protection against democracy degenerating into dictatorship.

To leave that protection’s existence in the hands of a simple majority of a politically-driven Congress would be to tempt fate. The Framers showed they intended no such thing.

On rare occasions, the Supreme Court has invoked the “political question” doctrine, which allows it to refuse to interpret provisions whose text doesn’t lend itself to clear understanding. But while the words of Section 3 include several possible ambiguities, they are no more cryptic than the First Amendment’s guarantee of “freedom of speech” or the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of “equal protection,” both of which the court interprets regularly. True, the Supreme Court has never previously interpreted Section 3 — but every provision is at some point interpreted for the first time.

The 14th Amendment’s ban on insurrectionist office holders, like its guarantees of equal protection and due process, is designed to protect us against tyranny imposed by a majority. It would undermine the foundations of our constitutional system to place that provision’s enforcement at the mercy of majoritarian will.

Let SCOTUS squirm and wiggle for the predicament Trump has laid on them,Originalist's when it suits and Precedent'ists when it suits,I want them to keep the peckerhead on the ballot to shine more light on their hypocrisy and for my own selfish reasons of fearing Haley as a last minute replacement for Pres. will have R's in the White House. I want Trump ,weakened w/ guilty verdicts and whatever vile shit spews from his mouth till Nov., and MAGA down in flames once and for all this coming fall.
 
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