AN nutes PH perfect ? ... NOT !!!

since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
trombon84 said:
nope.....I just did a test in a 1l bottle. I added 4-4-4 , as I would probably use for a mature plant, and the PH does not go lower than 6.5
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Advanced nutes so called pH Perfect dealy largely depends on the buffers or hardness of the carbonates on your tap water. And the way they market it...its total bullshit. My tap is 110 ppm on the 500 scale and about 7.5 pH. Using Sensi Grow A & B for Coco at recommended 4 ml. per liter on the bottle it drops it no lower than 6.4 - 6.5. I still have to add some pH down for my plants in coco coir. And it rises MUCH faster than a traditionally buffered nutrient line like say..Canna...General...Ionic or all the others. With my tap water...iam in the same boat as you...its bullshit. Now i might of got a bad batch from wherever they make it but I doubt that. Good news is at the 4 ml. per liter (tbs a gallon)...it puts me in the 750 ppm range with my 110 tap. Slightly more watered down than Canna coco nutrient and WAY more than General Hydroponics Cocotek A & B. With Cocotek...2 tsp of each part per gallon of my tap its over 1000 ppm.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I started using AN nutes 15 years ago when I began experimenting with DWC before they came out with pH Perfect and and never had a problem. I held off on trying the pH Perfect stuff until about 3 years ago as I was having great results so why change.

One of my goals in growing is to use the KISS principle, (Keep It Simple Stoner). Checking pH was one of those chores I didn't want to mess with and shortly after starting with the pH Perfect I retired my pH pen. For one thing you don't get a correct reading on your pen when using pH Perfect nutes and for another thing it doesn't matter.

I've always only ever used RO water for my plants so like many growers using tap water I don't have to factor in my water as being part of any problems that may arise. Not all RO water is created equal tho with one of the local supermarkets selling RO that was almost 300ppm which is only 100ppm lower than the town water they made it from. Two other stores in town sell RO that is consistently below 20ppm so I get mine there.

If your tap water is over 100ppm then you never need CalMag which so many seem to think is a magic elixir and use way more than needed. I see a lot more cases of Ca toxicity than I do Ca deficiency. If your tap water is over 200ppm I don't care what brand of nutes you use you will eventually run into problems unless you change nutes often in hydro or flush your plants regularly growing on pots of anything. I can go a whole grow in DWC or soilless without ever changing or flushing with great results.

For those using tap water, if you really want/need/just have to, adjust the pH of your tap water to around 6 - 7. Then just add the pH Perfect nutes and forget about pH. Don't try to mess with it or you'll just screw it up. If you have hard water and run into problems it's all the extra salts in your water that are the likely culprits and not the nutes. For best results use RO.

And don't buy all the pricey supplements or there's gonna be tears. Even experienced growers screw things up until they get used to using them. Using all those things will trash your wallet and not get you the results you're paying for unless you really know what you're doing. Like tweaking a muscle car to try to get a few more horsepower. Eventually something will blow when it looked just as fast when all you added before was some hi-octane fuel and some racing stripes. :)

Besides the base nutes I just use the Rhino Skin, Big Bud, a little GrowTek CalMag and for the first time trying Bud Ignitor. A bit of Epsom salts doesn't hurt for the sulfur as that's a very important micro-nutrient too. For my soilless grown plants I'll toss in some blackstrap molasses to feed the myco.

K.I.S.S.

:peace:
 
since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I started using AN nutes 15 years ago when I began experimenting with DWC before they came out with pH Perfect and and never had a problem. I held off on trying the pH Perfect stuff until about 3 years ago as I was having great results so why change.

One of my goals in growing is to use the KISS principle, (Keep It Simple Stoner). Checking pH was one of those chores I didn't want to mess with and shortly after starting with the pH Perfect I retired my pH pen. For one thing you don't get a correct reading on your pen when using pH Perfect nutes and for another thing it doesn't matter.

I've always only ever used RO water for my plants so like many growers using tap water I don't have to factor in my water as being part of any problems that may arise. Not all RO water is created equal tho with one of the local supermarkets selling RO that was almost 300ppm which is only 100ppm lower than the town water they made it from. Two other stores in town sell RO that is consistently below 20ppm so I get mine there.

If your tap water is over 100ppm then you never need CalMag which so many seem to think is a magic elixir and use way more than needed. I see a lot more cases of Ca toxicity than I do Ca deficiency. If your tap water is over 200ppm I don't care what brand of nutes you use you will eventually run into problems unless you change nutes often in hydro or flush your plants regularly growing on pots of anything. I can go a whole grow in DWC or soilless without ever changing or flushing with great results.

For those using tap water, if you really want/need/just have to, adjust the pH of your tap water to around 6 - 7. Then just add the pH Perfect nutes and forget about pH. Don't try to mess with it or you'll just screw it up. If you have hard water and run into problems it's all the extra salts in your water that are the likely culprits and not the nutes. For best results use RO.

And don't buy all the pricey supplements or there's gonna be tears. Even experienced growers screw things up until they get used to using them. Using all those things will trash your wallet and not get you the results you're paying for unless you really know what you're doing. Like tweaking a muscle car to try to get a few more horsepower. Eventually something will blow when it looked just as fast when all you added before was some hi-octane fuel and some racing stripes. :)

Besides the base nutes I just use the Rhino Skin, Big Bud, a little GrowTek CalMag and for the first time trying Bud Ignitor. A bit of Epsom salts doesn't hurt for the sulfur as that's a very important micro-nutrient too. For my soilless grown plants I'll toss in some blackstrap molasses to feed the myco.

K.I.S.S.

:peace:
Click to expand...
Good post. But there is an Advanced pH Perfect Youtube video where Erik Biksa and a buddy try 3 different water sources with 3 different pH values. And they are in 3 seperate reservoirs with pH meters. In the vid every tank adjusts automatically to the sweet spot of around 5.9. And they claim with or without the additives. At 4 ml per liter from just the base nutrient (Sensi, GMB, or Connie) it is supposed to pH automatically and keep it there for at leasr a week. My tap is damn near perfect for any base brand at 110 ppm (0.2EC) and 7.5 pH. Advanced Sensi Grow for Coco absolutely does NOT drop it any lower than 6.4. I must use a little pH down. I dont know what nutes they used in the Youtube vid...but my 2 bottle set dont do that....at all.
 
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WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Apparently no one read what I typed earlier. The nutrients don't fully adjust PH, the formulas they use allow the nutrients to be available through a wider PH range than the normal 5.6-6.4PH for hydro. Adding ph up/down to their formulas will screw with their buffers, starting ph swings and lockouts.

Biggest thing I found, with every nute line I've used, was getting the EC levels correct for the plant size. Too much EC gives extra food for bacteria, etc which can lower PH, to little EC, the plants eat either quickly raising PH, or roots start dying, you get bacteria and ph drops.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
WeedFreak78 said:
Apparently no one read what I typed earlier. The nutrients don't fully adjust PH, the formulas they use allow the nutrients to be available through a wider PH range than the normal 5.6-6.4PH for hydro. Adding ph up/down to their formulas will screw with their buffers, starting ph swings and lockouts.

Biggest thing I found, with every nute line I've used, was getting the EC levels correct for the plant size. Too much EC gives extra food for bacteria, etc which can lower PH, to little EC, the plants eat either quickly raising PH, or roots start dying, you get bacteria and ph drops.
Click to expand...
I understand that part WeedFreak but maybe I didn't make that clear in my previous post. AN should be clearer in it's explanation of how the pH Perfect technology works so users don't keep messing with the pH after they mix the nutes into their lousy tap water. Or RO water for that matter.

I just fire and forget and my plants do fine without ever checking the pH.

:peace:
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I understand that part WeedFreak but maybe I didn't make that clear in my previous post. AN should be clearer in it's explanation of how the pH Perfect technology works so users don't keep messing with the pH after they mix the nutes into their lousy tap water. Or RO water for that matter.

I just fire and forget and my plants do fine without ever checking the pH.

:peace:
Click to expand...
I thought it says use RO and not to adjust PH on the bottle. I don't remember, It's been awhile since I've used it. I never had good luck with any nutes in tap water, but our water quality fluctuates too much to be able to compensate for it. If you have stable tap water you can work with it.
 
since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I understand that part WeedFreak but maybe I didn't make that clear in my previous post. AN should be clearer in it's explanation of how the pH Perfect technology works so users don't keep messing with the pH after they mix the nutes into their lousy tap water. Or RO water for that matter.

I just fire and forget and my plants do fine without ever checking the pH.

:peace:
Click to expand...
Thats what iam saying. The videos they make show that a pH meter WILL drop down in the sweet spot of 5.8 - 6.2 for coco coir. Nothing about if your final solution reads 6.4 to not use pH down and that its in the sweet spot no matter what your meter says. The vids that Eric Biksa made show the meters actually dropping down to 5.9. My tanks dont do that unless i add pH down. Albeit less pH down but still....not pH perfect according to the vids and my meter. Which btw...is a blue lab combo with a 2 week old pH replacement probe....freshly calibrated.
 
ganjaman87

ganjaman87

Well-Known Member
I use ph perfect and my ph usually ends up around 6.7 in my dwc buckets after mixing and my plants grow just fine. I was adjusting PH to 5.8 and it seems like I was having problems.
 
Logan Burke

Logan Burke

Well-Known Member
I had minor elemental deficiencies when I ran AN ph perfect. I tried Calmag plus, to no avail, and even bought the Micro part of their 3 part series just for the micronutrients. Long story short, it didn't work, and for all I know I had too much calmag or some other problem that just presented itself as a Calcium deficiency. In fact, I think most calcium deficient symptoms are symptoms of another problem altogether. Especially if you up the calmag and the rusty spots continue to spread. Just my experiences though...hope it helps a little.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Jdcollins86 said:
Any buddy getting rusty spots running AN? I've been feeding them calimag...
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At what stage of growth are you getting rusty spots? My plants have been growing since June and no spots of any note have shown up. Day 20 of flowering now and looking great!

The only stage I've seen rusty spots is in later flowering around 5 weeks or later and I'm certain that's from too much N which I'll be running Lucas Formula soon to see if that fixes things.

Girls29111605.jpg

:peace:
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
since1991 said:
Good post. But there is an Advanced pH Perfect Youtube video where Erik Biksa and a buddy try 3 different water sources with 3 different pH values. And they are in 3 seperate reservoirs with pH meters. In the vid every tank adjusts automatically to the sweet spot of around 5.9. And they claim with or without the additives. At 4 ml per liter from just the base nutrient (Sensi, GMB, or Connie) it is supposed to pH automatically and keep it there for at leasr a week. My tap is damn near perfect for any base brand at 110 ppm (0.2EC) and 7.5 pH. Advanced Sensi Grow for Coco absolutely does NOT drop it any lower than 6.4. I must use a little pH down. I dont know what nutes they used in the Youtube vid...but my 2 bottle set dont do that....at all.
Click to expand...
You shouldn't try to adjust the pH at all. These nutes are supposed to work at whatever pH level you find by making the nutrients available to the plants within the stated range. I don't follow that 4ml/L crap on the bottle and ignore the nutrient calculator on their website. For DWC I just feed according to the ppm level I want for the plant's stage of growth and with my soil/soilless plants they get what I think they need. Usually 2 - 3ml/L every second watering tho I have been feeding every watering as they go through the stretch.

For 3 years almost I haven't bothered checking pH at all and am very happy not to have to and haven't seen one problem I could attribute to nute deficiencies. I use probably 1/4 of the recommended CalMag with RO water and from what I've seen around here most people use way too much. Most tap water has way more than the plants can use but folks dump in more from a bottle which leads to problems.

A lot of well meaning folks seem to see every bad leaf as a Ca deficiency and say the same thing to every nOOb looking for help. Add CalMag!. It's not a magic bullet.

:peace:
 
dirtWeevil

dirtWeevil

Well-Known Member
I use 1ml per litre for seedlings and cuts, once they are established with two or three sets i feed 2ml per litre, then I go to three until flowering then I go to 4 every week til the last two or three and I go back down 3 then 2 with overdrive and then flush for 7-10 days, that's served me pretty well so far. I always use equal parts of all three, though this time I'm backing down on the grow to see how that goes
 
Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
WeedFreak78 said:
Apparently no one read what I typed earlier. The nutrients don't fully adjust PH, the formulas they use allow the nutrients to be available through a wider PH range than the normal 5.6-6.4PH for hydro. Adding ph up/down to their formulas will screw with their buffers, starting ph swings and lockouts.

Biggest thing I found, with every nute line I've used, was getting the EC levels correct for the plant size. Too much EC gives extra food for bacteria, etc which can lower PH, to little EC, the plants eat either quickly raising PH, or roots start dying, you get bacteria and ph drops.
Click to expand...
I've read about a few nutrient lines that make that claim, there was one that even said it balances around a pH of 4 and has compared evenly with other nutrient lines. pH 'nutrient availability' is mix/recipe (solution) dependent. phosphates and carbonates are great at 'locking' (dissociating poorly) out cations under high or low pH conditions. Lower concentrations of these things helps, but also using a wide range of chelates can actually prevent a bunch of the cation lockup from happening. There's 3 or 4 popular iron chelates, if you have all of them, iron is available at basically all pH. Same with other organic acids, humics chelate against Mg mostly, and Ca second, and then other cations. If you get that shit straightened out and the concentrations are just right, pH really shouldn't matter.

OldMedUser said:
You shouldn't try to adjust the pH at all. These nutes are supposed to work at whatever pH level you find by making the nutrients available to the plants within the stated range. I don't follow that 4ml/L crap on the bottle and ignore the nutrient calculator on their website. For DWC I just feed according to the ppm level I want for the plant's stage of growth and with my soil/soilless plants they get what I think they need. Usually 2 - 3ml/L every second watering tho I have been feeding every watering as they go through the stretch.

For 3 years almost I haven't bothered checking pH at all and am very happy not to have to and haven't seen one problem I could attribute to nute deficiencies. I use probably 1/4 of the recommended CalMag with RO water and from what I've seen around here most people use way too much. Most tap water has way more than the plants can use but folks dump in more from a bottle which leads to problems.

A lot of well meaning folks seem to see every bad leaf as a Ca deficiency and say the same thing to every nOOb looking for help. Add CalMag!. It's not a magic bullet.

:peace:
Click to expand...
Controlling the amount of phosphates and carbonates going into my rez basically eliminated any nutrient issues I've seen since I changed over, even though my pH swings low every day or two. So this just meant conditioning my tap water, and ditching the GH pH Up (carbonate) and Down (phosphate), and ultimately the CalMag. Ca and Mg are the highest concentration metal (besides K) but have weird solubility with phosphates, carbonates, and to a limited degree, sulfates. Deficiencies in these is normally a problem with a hot mix, not too little CalMag.

I'm tempted to just let my pH go wild- I've been dumping in a good amount of KOH, and I've seen on my chart things really want to level out around 4 sometimes... maybe next grow I'll let it go unchecked, curious what happens.
 
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L

Luc 77

New Member
trombon84 said:
I'm running a DWC.
I am using tap water that has a PH of 7.2
I am also using the 3 part nutes from AN : Micro - Grow - Bloom PH Perfect.
However, after mixing up the nutes (1-1-1 ml / l because they are only 10 days old) the PH only drops to 6.8
Besides the fact that AN specifies that their new formula buffers the PH at 5.5 , after several hours, my PH is at about 8 ..... ?????

is there anything I am doing wrong? or this "ph perfect" is just another bullshit from AN ?
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Is it hard water? They say it is only guaranteed to work up to 100 ppm. I have hard water 265ppm from the well so it won’t work with my tap water
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Yesdog said:
I've read about a few nutrient lines that make that claim, there was one that even said it balances around a pH of 4 and has compared evenly with other nutrient lines. pH 'nutrient availability' is mix/recipe (solution) dependent. phosphates and carbonates are great at 'locking' (dissociating poorly) out cations under high or low pH conditions. Lower concentrations of these things helps, but also using a wide range of chelates can actually prevent a bunch of the cation lockup from happening. There's 3 or 4 popular iron chelates, if you have all of them, iron is available at basically all pH. Same with other organic acids, humics chelate against Mg mostly, and Ca second, and then other cations. If you get that shit straightened out and the concentrations are just right, pH really shouldn't matter.



Controlling the amount of phosphates and carbonates going into my rez basically eliminated any nutrient issues I've seen since I changed over, even though my pH swings low every day or two. So this just meant conditioning my tap water, and ditching the GH pH Up (carbonate) and Down (phosphate), and ultimately the CalMag. Ca and Mg are the highest concentration metal (besides K) but have weird solubility with phosphates, carbonates, and to a limited degree, sulfates. Deficiencies in these is normally a problem with a hot mix, not too little CalMag.

I'm tempted to just let my pH go wild- I've been dumping in a good amount of KOH, and I've seen on my chart things really want to level out around 4 sometimes... maybe next grow I'll let it go unchecked, curious what happens.
Click to expand...
When I first began experimenting with DWC back in '01 I was using the older AN 3-part with RO water only. I found after many more experiments that I could go from clone to crop without ever changing nutes and pure water is the key. I found that the pH would rise from 5.5 to 6.3 in the 3 days between topups in the RubberMaid tubs and a few drops of conc. sulfuric acid would knock it back to the mid-5s so I stopped checking pH more than once a month after that. With big plants in the tubs the water level would drop to 4" below the net pots in 3 days. I would first fill to 1" below the pot bottoms then check ppm. Most times it would be lower than the last topup so I'd add small amounts of nutes in the same ratio to get back to my target ppm or raise it up if the plants needed more. With the newer pH Perfect versions of AN I don't ever check pH even in my soil/soilless growing and never see pH issues. Easy is great!

I've done 50+ DWC grows and every one has been an experiment. I know from where I speak and not blowing smoke up your collective asses. I suck at growing in real dirt but can kill with hydro. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and I know mine. :)

:peace:
 
curious2garden

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
OldMedUser said:
....snip...... I suck at growing in real dirt but can kill with hydro. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and I know mine. :)

:peace:
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I just had to chuckle over this, same here. Back in the 70's when all the earth mamas were growing Creeping Charlies and Tradescantia and swapping cuttings of philodendrons I was killing everything. When CA first allowed medical in 1996 I started in home made NFT rails and the only hydroponic nutrient at the time was GH 3 part Flora Series and I got a book on growing tomatoes. My plants survived because I could grow like a lab experiment and I was good at lab. Thanks for the reminder those were some interesting times.
 
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