Another gun thread

canndo

Well-Known Member
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/how-opioid-addiction-occurs/art-20360372

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/opioids/science-of-addiction.html

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/addiction/opioid-use-disorder

https://www.unodc.org/documents/drug-prevention-and-treatment/nonmedical-use-prescription-drugs.pdf

https://addiction.surgeongeneral.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-generals-report.pdf

https://addiction.surgeongeneral.gov/sites/default/files/Spotlight-on-Opioids_09192018.pdf

all of this seems to say at least 20% of people prescribed opiates develop a problem with them...and that's just people who were prescribed opiates to begin with...i'm going to go out on a limb and say that those that procure opiates on their own will probably have a much higher incidence of problem usage, as they will usually have two or more of the "markers" that indicate a person is likely to develop such problems.
so 80% is larger than 20%...it is technically correct that more people use them and don't develop a problem, but those aren't very good rates...
would you fly in a plane that you knew had a 20% chance of crashing each flight? would you take a cruise with a company that lost 20% of its ships?
would you take a pill or injection that has a 20% chance of ruining your life? it seems so.

Yet you have insinuated that the few of us here that have had experiences with these substances were the rare resistant fortunates. I never said these things were harmless, only that to paint users with the brush of inevitable doom is inaccurate.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/how-opioid-addiction-occurs/art-20360372

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/opioids/science-of-addiction.html

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/addiction/opioid-use-disorder

https://www.unodc.org/documents/drug-prevention-and-treatment/nonmedical-use-prescription-drugs.pdf

https://addiction.surgeongeneral.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-generals-report.pdf

https://addiction.surgeongeneral.gov/sites/default/files/Spotlight-on-Opioids_09192018.pdf

all of this seems to say at least 20% of people prescribed opiates develop a problem with them...and that's just people who were prescribed opiates to begin with...i'm going to go out on a limb and say that those that procure opiates on their own will probably have a much higher incidence of problem usage, as they will usually have two or more of the "markers" that indicate a person is likely to develop such problems.
so 80% is larger than 20%...it is technically correct that more people use them and don't develop a problem, but those aren't very good rates...
would you fly in a plane that you knew had a 20% chance of crashing each flight? would you take a cruise with a company that lost 20% of its ships?
would you take a pill or injection that has a 20% chance of ruining your life? it seems so.
About 20% of soldiers returning from vietnam said they were addicted to heroin. Their rates of recovery was the mirror image of what we see when an addict in the US recovers.


Soon a comprehensive system was set up so that every enlisted man was tested for heroin addiction before he was allowed to return home. And in this population, Robins did find high rates of addiction: Around 20 percent of the soldiers self-identified as addicts.

Those who were addicted were kept in Vietnam until they dried out. When these soldiers finally did return to their lives back in the U.S., Robins tracked them, collecting data at regular intervals. And this is where the story takes a curious turn: According to her research, the number of soldiers who continued their heroin addiction once they returned to the U.S. was shockingly low.

"I believe the number of people who actually relapsed to heroin use in the first year was about 5 percent," Jaffe said recently from his suburban Maryland home. In other words, 95 percent of the people who were addicted in Vietnam did not become re-addicted when they returned to the United States.

This flew in the face of everything everyone knew both about heroin and drug addiction generally. When addicts were treated in the U.S. and returned to their homes, relapse rates hovered around 90 percent. It didn't make sense.


Myself, I never tried it. Just saying that addiction is complicated and pretty much each addict is a different thing.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Yet you have insinuated that the few of us here that have had experiences with these substances were the rare resistant fortunates. I never said these things were harmless, only that to paint users with the brush of inevitable doom is inaccurate.
yeah, it's only going to destroy the lives of one out of five...
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The high from smoking rock (for me anyways) is a quick trip to hell. Yes I don’t anymore because Im aware that even one draw from the pipe leads me to 4-5 nights of no sleep and a couple of grand gone. It has the most powerful draw of any drug I’ve taken…..way too scared to try meth even once lol. So yes I could see a person that didn’t have much to lose to begin with, having a tough time not falling into the rabbit hole. I’m glad I made it through the 80’s, way to much temptation lol.

Ok.


A beef from me (again).

This sort of comment is akin to "we should never legalize all drugs because people will go wild in the streets"

"OK, so if heroin were legal, you would rush right out and buy a bag?"

"OH, no, I would never do that, I'm talking about all the other people, you know, the 'weak' (great unwashed) people, not the ones like me".

The truth is that heroin is the puritanical ideal drug.

It must afford so very much pleasure because it is so very evil.

And the punishment for such pleasure is inherent in the drug itself.

So there is a moral balance that puritanical sensibilities depend upon. Like sex, if a woman enjoys herself she must inevitably suffer the consequences, burdened with pregnancy or at least a fallen reputation. But she may receive dispensation if she didn't really enjoy it.

But it is impossible not to completely enjoy the apple in the garden...heroin. therefore it must also lead directly to the user's inevitable and compensating misery.
 

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
About 20% of soldiers returning from vietnam said they were addicted to heroin. Their rates of recovery was the mirror image of what we see when an addict in the US recovers.


Soon a comprehensive system was set up so that every enlisted man was tested for heroin addiction before he was allowed to return home. And in this population, Robins did find high rates of addiction: Around 20 percent of the soldiers self-identified as addicts.

Those who were addicted were kept in Vietnam until they dried out. When these soldiers finally did return to their lives back in the U.S., Robins tracked them, collecting data at regular intervals. And this is where the story takes a curious turn: According to her research, the number of soldiers who continued their heroin addiction once they returned to the U.S. was shockingly low.

"I believe the number of people who actually relapsed to heroin use in the first year was about 5 percent," Jaffe said recently from his suburban Maryland home. In other words, 95 percent of the people who were addicted in Vietnam did not become re-addicted when they returned to the United States.

This flew in the face of everything everyone knew both about heroin and drug addiction generally. When addicts were treated in the U.S. and returned to their homes, relapse rates hovered around 90 percent. It didn't make sense.


Myself, I never tried it. Just saying that addiction is complicated and pretty much each addict is a different thing.
It underlines that most addictions are responses to the need to escape an oppressive reality. Remove the externality, and most stop using the drug.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Why did you choose to register them when it was not mandatory? Or is it for carry weapons?

The quiet secret is that government is actually unafraid of traditional firearms in the hands of citizens.

The other secret that the cold dead hands crowd believe is that should arms ever be rendered illegal, shock troops will travel door to door searching basements and bedroom closets for grand dads mauser.

That is an impossibility and nothing more than a story told to children.

The reality is that should firearms be made illegal, owners will voluntarily surrender their weapons to the nearest police station or armory. Government methods involve placing a choice of preferences before the individual.

Pay your child support or lose your driver's license. Get a shot or give up those music festival visits. Show up for court or the next time you encounter the law you lose your freedom.

Now imagine a letter informing you that until you can produce a paper documenting your having surrendered your weapons, you will be fined $5.00 a day, complete with interest and penalties should you refuse to pay. This leaves all enforcement to the irs, no jackboots needed. Want to keep your weapons? Fine, but lose your checking account, lose your home.

But all this is dependent on traceability. There must somewhere be a database that correlates your ownership with your name.

Thus, the worst thing for people in fear of confiscation is registration.
 

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
The quiet secret is that government is actually unafraid of traditional firearms in the hands of citizens.

The other secret that the cold dead hands crowd believe is that should arms ever be rendered illegal, shock troops will travel door to door searching basements and bedroom closets for grand dads mauser.

That is an impossibility and nothing more than a story told to children.

The reality is that should firearms be made illegal, owners will voluntarily surrender their weapons to the nearest police station or armory. Government methods involve placing a choice of preferences before the individual.

Pay your child support or lose your driver's license. Get a shot or give up those music festival visits. Show up for court or the next time you encounter the law you lose your freedom.

Now imagine a letter informing you that until you can produce a paper documenting your having surrendered your weapons, you will be fined $5.00 a day, complete with interest and penalties should you refuse to pay. This leaves all enforcement to the irs, no jackboots needed. Want to keep your weapons? Fine, but lose your checking account, lose your home.

But all this is dependent on traceability. There must somewhere be a database that correlates your ownership with your name.

Thus, the worst thing for people in fear of confiscation is registration.
That describes the antiregistration sentiment I’ve encountered. I have sympathy for it. Should, say, the recent election have turned out differently, I have no doubt that while still sloganizing freedom, the ones now solidly in power would have begun sharply clamping down on first gun sales, then transfers, finally possession …

I dislike your penalty scheme on Constitutional grounds. It is a tax. While I would like to see our tax code reformed to correctly address the debt of the individual and corporate rich, I am loath to see taxation used as coercion of policy. The jackboots are there, simply not material, in the scenario as I read it.
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Ok.


A beef from me (again).

This sort of comment is akin to "we should never legalize all drugs because people will go wild in the streets"

"OK, so if heroin were legal, you would rush right out and buy a bag?"

"OH, no, I would never do that, I'm talking about all the other people, you know, the 'weak' (great unwashed) people, not the ones like me".

The truth is that heroin is the puritanical ideal drug.

It must afford so very much pleasure because it is so very evil.

And the punishment for such pleasure is inherent in the drug itself.

So there is a moral balance that puritanical sensibilities depend upon. Like sex, if a woman enjoys herself she must inevitably suffer the consequences, burdened with pregnancy or at least a fallen reputation. But she may receive dispensation if she didn't really enjoy it.

But it is impossible not to completely enjoy the apple in the garden...heroin. therefore it must also lead directly to the user's inevitable and compensating misery.
no, only to the inevitable and compensating misery of one in five...
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
You are moving those goalposts there. Are the majority of those who try the milk of the poppy destined to steal from their Sainted mothers purse or not?
no, around 20% are...they're also destined to steal from their friends, shoplift, possible rob people, and to eventually require physical and psychological care, that will probably be ineffective, and then they'll go back to the same shit they were doing, before they used societal resources that could have been used to ....pay for daycare, pay for healthcare for people who are genuinely ill, pay for any number of things that would be better than pissing it away wasting it on someone who's just going to self destruct anyway
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Ok.


A beef from me (again).

This sort of comment is akin to "we should never legalize all drugs because people will go wild in the streets"

"OK, so if heroin were legal, you would rush right out and buy a bag?"

"OH, no, I would never do that, I'm talking about all the other people, you know, the 'weak' (great unwashed) people, not the ones like me".

The truth is that heroin is the puritanical ideal drug.

It must afford so very much pleasure because it is so very evil.

And the punishment for such pleasure is inherent in the drug itself.

So there is a moral balance that puritanical sensibilities depend upon. Like sex, if a woman enjoys herself she must inevitably suffer the consequences, burdened with pregnancy or at least a fallen reputation. But she may receive dispensation if she didn't really enjoy it.

But it is impossible not to completely enjoy the apple in the garden...heroin. therefore it must also lead directly to the user's inevitable and compensating misery.
WTF :o! How did you read that into what I said?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
The quiet secret is that government is actually unafraid of traditional firearms in the hands of citizens.

The other secret that the cold dead hands crowd believe is that should arms ever be rendered illegal, shock troops will travel door to door searching basements and bedroom closets for grand dads mauser.

That is an impossibility and nothing more than a story told to children.

The reality is that should firearms be made illegal, owners will voluntarily surrender their weapons to the nearest police station or armory. Government methods involve placing a choice of preferences before the individual.

Pay your child support or lose your driver's license. Get a shot or give up those music festival visits. Show up for court or the next time you encounter the law you lose your freedom.

Now imagine a letter informing you that until you can produce a paper documenting your having surrendered your weapons, you will be fined $5.00 a day, complete with interest and penalties should you refuse to pay. This leaves all enforcement to the irs, no jackboots needed. Want to keep your weapons? Fine, but lose your checking account, lose your home.

But all this is dependent on traceability. There must somewhere be a database that correlates your ownership with your name.

Thus, the worst thing for people in fear of confiscation is registration.
Nobody is seriously talking about taking guns away. A database tying each gun to an owner would take us leagues in the right direction. That and penalties if anybody's gun goes missing unreported and then used in a crime. We can talk about gun lockers too but I'd be satisfied if we started tracking gun sales and making it harder to sell one illegally.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Nobody is seriously talking about taking guns away. A database tying each gun to an owner would take us leagues in the right direction. That and penalties if anybody's gun goes missing unreported and then used in a crime. We can talk about gun lockers too but I'd be satisfied if we started tracking gun sales and making it harder to sell one illegally.

And "no one really intends to make abortion illegal".
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
That describes the antiregistration sentiment I’ve encountered. I have sympathy for it. Should, say, the recent election have turned out differently, I have no doubt that while still sloganizing freedom, the ones now solidly in power would have begun sharply clamping down on first gun sales, then transfers, finally possession …

I dislike your penalty scheme on Constitutional grounds. It is a tax. While I would like to see our tax code reformed to correctly address the debt of the individual and corporate rich, I am loath to see taxation used as coercion of policy. The jackboots are there, simply not material, in the scenario as I read it.

Mind, I never condoned it, merely hypothesized a distinct possibility.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Nobody is seriously talking about taking guns away. A database tying each gun to an owner would take us leagues in the right direction. That and penalties if anybody's gun goes missing unreported and then used in a crime. We can talk about gun lockers too but I'd be satisfied if we started tracking gun sales and making it harder to sell one illegally.
The registry here was not sustainable in its initial form, in Canada, and was cancelled. Costs ballooned, and it was deemed ineffective by some. Although every legal gun owner is still registered with a background check and has passed a compulsory training course. This registry allows for the purchase of ammunition as well.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
no, around 20% are...they're also destined to steal from their friends, shoplift, possible rob people, and to eventually require physical and psychological care, that will probably be ineffective, and then they'll go back to the same shit they were doing, before they used societal resources that could have been used to ....pay for daycare, pay for healthcare for people who are genuinely ill, pay for any number of things that would be better than pissing it away wasting it on someone who's just going to self destruct anyway

Still, your insinuation was that neatly all of "them", the poor, the guileless, the weak willed, the immoral, are due some special protection that limits everyone else in its wake.

I have a doctor friend, she decided never ever to prescribe opiates ever again. Forget about their back pain, their withering skeletal muscle agony, no, because of the current sentiment, that this class of drug but no other is evil, she condemns her patients to relentless pain.

"Nothing could be worse than ADDICTION" She says, ignoring the process of treatment, one step at a time.

Imagine the horror of such an artificial distinction. "You shall suffer the discomfort I and I alone shall decree as acceptable".

This isn't the first time we'll meaning but thoughtless people have opted to moralizing sickness. This is little different than claiming guys deserve hiv. Slots deserve herpies, singling out a particular illness as actually a weakness, a personal failing is wrong-headed and frankly sanctimonious.

It has always been so. Anti Coffee drinkers, temperance unions, anti pot smokers, they all have a story that in the end makes them and theirs superior.
 
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