We both could come up with better, I was just making fun of your lame attempt. Difference is you were actually trying.
Another interesting pro-lifer conundrum.
- Thread starter canndo
- Start date
We both could come up with better, I was just making fun of your lame attempt. Difference is you were actually trying.
canndo
Well-Known Member
And so far no one is able to address it, other than "apples and oranges". Quite simple really. are the pro life people, who have defined "life" as that of an unborn child, actually interested in the life of that unborn child? the question really has one of two answers, yes... or no.
Otherwise it is all about control and manipulation and some sort of misplaced biblical idolitry.
It's obvious you miss the entire stance of many, of not most pro lifers.
Life begins at conception. It's alway going to be murder to me. It is no longer an issue of whether or not a person owns their own body after conception, because now we are talking about two lives, not just one.
Pot prohibition may be on the level with abortions to you, but they are worlds apart to me.
canndo
Well-Known Member
You are saying that HUMAN life begins at conception, does that mean that a fetus has a full complement of constitutional rights?
Antidisestablishmentarian
Well-Known Member
That's your belief. The battle still rages on that.
I believe life begins later during pregnancy. I also believe that it's a woman's choice.
edit: they are alike in the sense it's about control over your own body. I also believe in assisted suicide
I believe life begins later during pregnancy. I also believe that it's a woman's choice.
edit: they are alike in the sense it's about control over your own body. I also believe in assisted suicide
Do you really think pro lifers don't give a fuck about a child, any child, just because it is born?
canndo
Well-Known Member
I am in full agreement that "life" begins at conception. I will go no further unless pushed. When pushed I argue that abortions are collateral damage that comes from a full complement of rights claimed by adults. If i have the right to protect myself and my property from threats to that life and property then I have the right to kill a child in the womb just as I have the right to kill an intruder into my home. EVEN if that intruder is initialy invited.
So its either vote on it, or start a war.
So at what moment does life begin? Is it on a Wednesday or something? Pacific standard or mountain?
canndo
Well-Known Member
Think it? I see ample evidence of it, including my initial opening statement on this thread. The obligation a pro-lifer believes he owes to a child ends at birth.
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
Hippocrates seemed to think so, way back in 400 BC
Hippocratic Oath (original version)
Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art — if they desire to learn it — without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but to no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfill this path and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.
ZOINKS!
Oath of Aeseph (the jewish version of this same oath, ~600AD)
This is the pact which Asaph ben Berakhyahu and Yohanan ben Zabda made with their pupils, and they adjured them with the following words:
Do not attempt to kill any soul by means of a potion of herbs,
Do not make a woman [who is] pregnant [as a result] of whoring take a drink with a view to causing abortion,
Do not covet beauty of form in women with a view to fornicating with them,
Do not divulge the secret of a man who has trusted you,
Do not take any reward [which may be offered in order to induce you] to destroy and to ruin,
Do not harden your heart [and turn it away] from pitying the poor and healing the needy,
Do not say of [what is] good; it is bad, nor of [what is] bad: it is good,
Do not adopt the ways of the sorcerers using [as they do] charms, augury and sorcery in order to separate a man from the wife of his bosom or a woman from the companion of her youth,
You shall not covet any wealth or reward [which may be offered in order to induce you] to help in a lustful desire,
You shall not seek help in any idolatrous [worship] so as to heal through [a recourse to idols], and you shall not heal with anything [pertaining] to their worship,
But on the contrary detest and abhor and hate all those who worship them, put their trust in them, and give assurance [referring] to them,
For they are all naught, useless, for they are nothing, demons, spirits of the dead; they cannot help their own corpses, how then could they help those who live?
Now [then] put your trust in the Lord, your God, [who is] a true God, a living God,
For [it is] He who kills and makes alive, who wounds and heals,
Who teaches men knowledge and also to profit,
Who wounds with justice and righteousness, and who heals with pity and compassion,
No designs of [His] sagacity are beyond His [power]
And nothing is hidden from His eyes.
Who causes curative plants to grow,
Who puts sagacity into the hearts of the wise in order that they should heal through the abundance of His loving-kindness, and that they should recount wonders in the congregation of many; so that every living [being] knows that He made him and that there is no saviour [other] than He.
For the nations trust in their idols, who [are supposed] to save them from their distress and will not deliver them from their misfortunes
For their trust and hope is in the dead.
For this [reason] it is fitting to keep yourselves separate from them; to remove yourselves and keep far away from all the abominations of their idols,
And to cleave to the name of the Lord God of spirits for all flesh,
And the soul of every living being is in His hand to kill and to make live,
And there is none that can deliver out of His hand.
Remember Him always and seek Him in truth, in righteousness in an upright way, in order that you should prosper in all your works
And He will give you help to make you prosper in [what you are doing], and you shall be [said to be] happy in the mouth of all flesh.
And the nations will abandon their idols and images and will desire to worship God like you,
For they will know that their trust is in vain and their endeavor fruitless,
For they implore a god, who will not do good [to them], who will not save [them].
As for you, be strong, do not let your hands be weak, for your work shall be rewarded,
The Lord is with you, while you are with Him,
If you keep His pact, follow His commandments, cleaving to them,
You will be regarded as His saints in the eyes of all flesh, and they will say:
Happy the people whose [lot] is such, happy the people whose God is the Lord.
Their pupils answered saying:
We will do all that you exhorted and ordered us [to do],
For it is a commandment of the Torah,
And we must do it with all our heart, with all our soul and with all our might, To do and to obey
Not to swerve or turn aside to the right hand or the left
And they [Asaph and Yohanan] blessed them in the name of God most high, maker of heaven and earth.
And they continued to charge them, and said:
The Lord God, His saints and His Torah [bear] witness, that you should fear Him, that you should not turn aside from His commandments, and that you should follow His laws with an upright heart,
You shall not incline after lucre [so as] to help a godless [man in shedding] innocent blood.
You shall not mix a deadly drug for any man or woman so that he [or she] should kill their fellow-man.
You shall not speak of the herbs [out of which such drugs are made]. You shall not hand them over to any man,
And you shall not talk about any matter [connected] with this,
You shall not use blood in any work of medicine,
You shall not attempt to provoke an ailment in a human soul through [the use of] iron instruments or searing with fire before making an examination two or three times; then [only] should you give your advice.
You shall not be ruled - your eyes and your heart being lifted up - by a haughty spirit.
Do not keep [in your hearts] the vindictiveness of hatred with regard to a sick man,
You shall not change your words in anything,
The Lord our God hates [?] [this?] being done,
But keep His orders and commandments, and follow all His ways, in order to please Him, [and] to be pure, true and upright.
Thus did Asaph and Yohanan exhort and adjure their pupils.
the 17 rules of Enjuin (the japanese version of the hippocratic oath ~1600 AD)
Each person should follow the path designated by Heaven (Buddha, the Gods).
You should always be kind to people. You should always be devoted to loving people.
The teaching of Medicine should be restricted to selected persons.
You should not tell others what you are taught, regarding treatments without permission.
You should not establish association with doctors who do not belong to this school.
All the successors and descendants of the disciples of this school shall follow the teachers' ways.
If any disciples cease the practice of Medicine, or, if successors are not found at the death of the disciple, all the medical books of this school should be returned to the School of Enjuin.
You should not kill living creatures, nor should you admire hunting or fishing.
In our school, teaching about poisons is prohibited, nor should you receive instructions about poisons from other physicians. Moreover, you should not give abortives to the people.
You should rescue even such patients as you dislike or hate. You should do virtuous acts, but in such a way that they do not become known to people. To do good deeds secretly is a mark of virtue.
You should not exhibit avarice and you must not strain to become famous. You should not rebuke or reprove a patient, even if he does not present you with money or goods in gratitude.
You should be delighted if, after treating a patient without success, the patient receives medicine from another physician, and is cured.
You should not speak ill of other physicians.
You should not tell what you have learned from the time you enter a woman's room, and, moreover, you should not have obscene or immoral feelings when examining a woman.
Proper or not, you should not tell others what you have learned in lectures, or what you have learned about prescribing medicine.
You should not like undue extravagance. If you like such living, your avarice will increase, and you will lose the ability to be kind to others.
If you do not keep the rules and regulations of this school, then you will be cancelled as a disciple. In more severe cases, the punishment will be greater.
seems like you are the one who is out of touch.
Blanket statements and hyperbole
Antidisestablishmentarian
Well-Known Member
When the heart begins beating is my opinion. Doctors would have a better opinion than I. Some will say conception, some will say later. There is a point when it stops being just a lump of cells.
edit: I have two kids. Just for perspective.
edit: I have two kids. Just for perspective.
canndo
Well-Known Member
So is it actually a person? I mean from the moment of conception, is it a person? and thus, in this country a U.S. citizen?
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
in a word, Yes.
canndo
Well-Known Member
400 bc and 600 ad? no, I'm not out of touch. I understand rights and in particular Constitutional rights. Rights are for people and fetuses are not people, they have no legal exstence save for that imparted to them by the mother.
burgertime2010
Well-Known Member
Funny how the sanctity of life does not apply to the death penalty. How many pro-lifers here are anti capital punishment?
canndo
Well-Known Member
How wonderful.
Shall we play then? All abortion is murder then. What shall we do to the murderer? The mother? is it the same as what we do to those who contract killers for hire? And what about spontaneous abortions and miscarriages? shall each of those be investigated as suspected murders? and how will we know, for a fact that a woman has conceived? After all, it is at conception that the "person" is to be protected by the full complement of the laws of the state. Should we subject each woman who has missed her period to a test? just to see if perhaps she is indeed pregnant and that "person" in need of protection until such time as it is born? after all, woman are a suspect class, having murdered, in class, many many millions of "people".
And then, we shall force each and every pregnant woman to bring that child to term, being watched over, as it is so easy to induce abortions but the tiny bodies are so easy to dispose of. And after all, as we agree, they are entitled to all the protection the law provides.
And if there is indeed a clash between the ultimate fate of the mother vs that of the child? who shall adjudicate such a decsion? Will the fetus be entitled to legal representation?
And are you willing to bear the cost of each and every child now being aborted being brought to term should the mother be unwilling or incapable of rearing and paying for that child?
Or is that "person" left to it's own devices the moment it is born?
canndo
Well-Known Member
Collateral damage, no different than those children who are accidentaly shot in crossfire, no different than those who are blown up by our unexploded mines in other countries, no different than those we dust off our shoes after a bombing of one country or another. Death is one of the costs of freedom in this country, and children take the brunt of much of that cost.
Murder is the illegal taking of a human life. Abortion is not presently murder. Murder, to the pro-lifers is just a shock word, just as pictures of mutilated fetuses are used to shock, so is that word, misused and thrown about.
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
the death penalty is delivered as a result of one's own deeds, not their inconvenient conception.
some folks just need killin, but kids dont.