AP: Biden unveiling $1.9T coronavirus action plan

Hollatchaboy said:

Just take YOUR ubi, give it away. Donate it to charity. Problem solved.

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I appreciate your suggestion, but it is not in line with my principles, therefore I will not participate in it.

I prefer to do actual charity, and will continue to do that as it suits me.

Rob Roy said:

I can be against UBI regardless of it's efficacy (real or imagined), because it violates individual rights to engage or disengage from other peoples ideas.
Meaning it isn't a voluntary participation thing for some and contains some nonconsensual aspects. I can't support that.

It's robbery and I am against that, why aren't you?

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Based on that logic (overstatement) you can choose to be against anything including democracy itself. I think the end result should weight more heavy than libertarian ideologies.

I pay a whopping 52% income tax, besides dozens of other taxes, so sure feels like I’m being robbed. If I could change that, I would. But if I’m going to have to pay that much, might as well spend it wisely (which ending poverty is even just from an economical point of view).

You don’t support positive tax, and don’t support negative tax, both for the same ‘reason’ (overstatement). That’s not libertarian, that’s contrarian. I doubt you pay 12k a year, but if you did, would you really be against receiving 12k a year in UBI?

Regardless, if you’re against it, that’s all up to you, an opinion. Your claim it doesn’t work however isn’t supported by that opinion.

Rob Roy said:

To be clear I'm not arguing when Stanford began looking at UBI. I don't think Pholosopher is either, but I don't know for sure and neither do you. I base that on an extrapolation. She said gained "a lab", that could mean she's referring to a particular lab done AFTER the one you are referring to.

I suppose I could ask her, but it's not a point that I'm hung up on.

Either way, UBI is undeniably a tool of control and in my opinion a bat and switch which many people will fall for. It smacks of "free candy" from government and in my opinion has perverse incentives and undermines self determination. There are consequences to being "owned", the candy can be turned off by those who give it out.

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I don't know man.

I would maybe think about it as all of the benefits of our societies inflation of wealth not just being given to the wealthiest in our nation.

It wouldn't stop people from finding a way to earn more money in our economy. And I am not sure what you are saying they will be controlled by. The feds won't be telling you how you have to spend the income are they? It would be nice to maybe have a must be used to buy American goods, but that would be a pain in the ass to set up and for people to try to follow.

If you think about the fact that the vast amount of wealth that is here in America growing at a rate of about 1-4% inflation rate, all that money is going into the hands of the middle class, and the people that live paycheck to paycheck see absolutely nothing of those gains.

Sativied said:

you can choose to be against anything including democracy itself.

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I'm against human relationships that involve coercion or threats of / actual initiation of aggression against peaceful people for failing to comply with another persons ideas or political edicts.

Why aren't you?

Democracy is often a form of tyranny cloaked in righteousness. To automatically assume democracy is fair etc. is a gross error of mental sloth.

hanimmal said:

feds won't be telling you how you have to spend the income

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What happens to people who become dependent on a supplier ? They lose their INDEPENDENCE and become DEPENDENTS. like children.

Dependents are easy to control, or "correct" . No thanks.

hanimmal said:

I don't know man.

I would maybe think about it as all of the benefits of our societies inflation of wealth not just being given to the wealthiest in our nation.

It wouldn't stop people from finding a way to earn more money in our economy. And I am not sure what you are saying they will be controlled by. The feds won't be telling you how you have to spend the income are they? It would be nice to maybe have a must be used to buy American goods, but that would be a pain in the ass to set up and for people to try to follow.

If you think about the fact that the vast amount of wealth that is here in America growing at a rate of about 1-4% inflation rate, all that money is going into the hands of the middle class, and the people that live paycheck to paycheck see absolutely nothing of those gains.

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You seem intent on justifying a system that makes people dependents on Santa Daddy Government. Are you at all concerned with that ?

Sativied said:

Your claim it doesn’t work however isn’t supported by that opinion

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If UBI worked, why not "give" everyone a million dollars per week, what could go wrong ?

Rob Roy said:

If UBI worked, why not "give" everyone a million dollars per week, what could go wrong ?

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IF ProVidInG a BAsic InCOMe wORks, wHY nOT MakE EvRyOne RicH.

The worst thing about your stupid question is that you don’t realize how stupid it is.

Rob Roy said:

I'm against human relationships that involve coercion or threats of / actual initiation of aggression against peaceful people for failing to comply with another persons ideas or political edicts.

Why aren't you?

Democracy is often a form of tyranny cloaked in righteousness. To automatically assume democracy is fair etc. is a gross error of mental sloth.

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When you revert to reiterating your libertarian bs we both know you ran out of valid arguments.

Rob Roy said:

What happens to people who become dependent on a supplier ? They lose their INDEPENDENCE and become DEPENDENTS. like children.

Dependents are easy to control, or "correct" . No thanks.

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lmao, that is like saying that mega wealthy people who live off the interest of their vast investments that were handed down to them by their parents are slaves.

Sure, I have seen those movies. But if I am asked to pretend that getting some of the inflation of our societies growth is a bad thing, I would think who is getting it now.

Now if you want to argue the inflation being less than the monthly checks, that might be a conversation worth having. But even then you have to start busting out graphs and excel sheets to keep things straight.

Which is why you move to trolling me and I am left laughing at how the wealthiest in our nation need your message to spread.

Rob Roy said:

You seem intent on justifying a system that makes people dependents on Santa Daddy Government. Are you at all concerned with that ?

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Pretending that getting a share of our national growth while here as an American citizens is making people dependent is bullshit.

I could argue that it is really just making sure that people have the ability to always do better since they are not going life hungry and less than optimally able to help the economy be the best they can. We need 100% of our population to be able to achieve as much as they are able to in life as a society to be as efficient as possible.

I was initially skeptical about this idea too, but after considering it for a bit I could see how the math would be interesting.

Sativied said:

IF ProVidInG a BAsic InCOMe wORks, wHY nOT MakE EvRyOne RicH.

The worst thing about your stupid question is that you don’t realize how stupid it is.



When you revert to reiterating your libertarian bs we both know you ran out of valid arguments.

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The worst thing about your rebuttal is it isn't a rebuttal.

Are you saying a preference for individual people to have choices in their lives is a bad thing and we must use collective diktats to cleanse them of their unhealthy thoughts of self ownership? Sort of sounds like that's what the noises you are making amount to.

Anyhow, I have to go make something of value now which I can trade to other productive people on a consensual basis, rather than waiting around for the zoo keeper to come feed me. Scary huh ?

You be sure and have a good day!

Rob Roy said:

The worst thing about your rebuttal is it isn't a rebuttal.

Are you saying a preference for individual people to have choices in their lives is a bad thing and we must use collective diktats to cleanse them of their unhealthy thoughts of self ownership? Sort of sounds like that's what the noises you are making amount to.

Anyhow, I have to go make something of value now which I can trade to other productive people on a consensual basis, rather than waiting around for the zoo keeper to come feed me. Scary huh ?

You be sure and have a good day!

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I have no desire to rebute your secondhand non sequitur irrelevant strawmen. I hope the rest of your days suck ass so don’t bother with the faux courteousness that translates to “I have nothing sensible to say”.

Rob Roy said:

To be clear I'm not arguing when Stanford began looking at UBI. I don't think Pholosopher is either, but I don't know for sure and neither do you. I base that on an extrapolation. She said gained "a lab", that could mean she's referring to a particular lab done AFTER the one you are referring to.

I suppose I could ask her, but it's not a point that I'm hung up on.

Either way, UBI is undeniably a tool of control and in my opinion a bait and switch which many people will fall for. It smacks of "free candy" from government and in my opinion has perverse incentives and undermines self determination. There are consequences to being "owned", the candy can be turned off by those who give it out.

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It's only a tool of control, if you let it control you. You sound real paranoid. Maybe you should cut back on smoking pot. I hear it can make you paranoid schizophrenic.

Rob Roy said:

The worst thing about your rebuttal is it isn't a rebuttal.

Are you saying a preference for individual people to have choices in their lives is a bad thing and we must use collective diktats to cleanse them of their unhealthy thoughts of self ownership? Sort of sounds like that's what the noises you are making amount to.

Anyhow, I have to go make something of value now which I can trade to other productive people on a consensual basis, rather than waiting around for the zoo keeper to come feed me. Scary huh ?

You be sure and have a good day!

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More money = more choices.

Rob Roy said:

The worst thing about your rebuttal is it isn't a rebuttal.

Are you saying a preference for individual people to have choices in their lives is a bad thing and we must use collective diktats to cleanse them of their unhealthy thoughts of self ownership? Sort of sounds like that's what the noises you are making amount to.

Anyhow, I have to go make something of value now which I can trade to other productive people on a consensual basis, rather than waiting around for the zoo keeper to come feed me. Scary huh ?

You be sure and have a good day!

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Yea, some people don't get to eat. By no crhoice of their own. Now what?

Rob Roy said:

I appreciate your suggestion, but it is not in line with my principles, therefore I will not participate in it.

I prefer to do actual charity, and will continue to do that as it suits me.

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So if ubi was offered, you would keep it? Some principles.

Hollatchaboy said:

It's only a tool of control, if you let it control you. You sound real paranoid. Maybe you should cut back on smoking pot. I hear it can make you paranoid schizophrenic.

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Actually I sound like James Earl Jones in his prime only sexier.

You sound like you don't understand the evils and ripple effects of fiat money. For instance, it's been a tool used to expand military spending and destabilizing world peace to mention just one thing.

Hollatchaboy said:

More money = more choices.

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So when Zimbabwe inflated their currency to the point where nearly everyone was a trillionaire in Zimbabwe dollars everyone drove a Rolls Royce there and played polo or spent their idle time lounging by their private estates pool ?

Hollatchaboy said:

Yea, some people don't get to eat. By no crhoice of their own. Now what?

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Grow food, instead of debt is one thing that comes to mind.

If you're worried about people not having anything to eat....what happens when their "allowance" (UBI) they become dependent on is revoked ?

Fiat currency

Rob Roy said:

Actually I sound like James Earl Jones in his prime only sexier. No, you sound paranoid. .

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Hollatchaboy said:

So if ubi was offered, you would keep it? Some principles.

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I didn't say that.

I have no intention of enrolling in any government / private bank collusion scams to further indenture people. That's part of the reason why things are so fucked up already. You don't unfuck something by continuing to go along with the thing that fucked it up in the first place.