Aquarium water

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
It seems that death would be the natural outcome, but an inhibition really means more that activity is "suspended", somewhat like temperature affecting growth rates. I've never done studies, but I've worked with more fish and fish tanks than I can even count.

As far as the plants go, they can handle ammonia, nitrite and nitrate--all forms of the same originating nitrogenous compound (basically NH3/NH4, ammonia, is oxidized, I can tell you've got that bit down.. or if you don't you had me fooled).

The thing that you've got to remember about using aquarium water is that these species of nitrifiers are benthic ONLY, that means that they are only to be found attached to the substrata, occasionally small numbers are free-floating, but only in small numbers. And, assuming it's an established system, and understanding that these bacteria are like lemmings in that there are only as many as available nutrient sources can support, means that there are only very low concentrations of NH3, if any, and it's the same thing with nitrite as it is likely already oxidized and has left the resultant nitrate in the water column. We all know that nitrate is a form of nitrogen that plants like, so, barring salt or extremely alkaline, high pH water sources, that makes it perfect for our Mary. :)

I don't think my post makes sense, but I'm dry and my memory goes when I haven't got Mary to help me through my day. Sheesh.
 

thelastpirate

Well-Known Member
It seems that death would be the natural outcome, but an inhibition really means more that activity is "suspended", somewhat like temperature affecting growth rates. I've never done studies, but I've worked with more fish and fish tanks than I can even count.

As far as the plants go, they can handle ammonia, nitrite and nitrate--all forms of the same originating nitrogenous compound (basically NH3/NH4, ammonia, is oxidized, I can tell you've got that bit down.. or if you don't you had me fooled).

The thing that you've got to remember about using aquarium water is that these species of nitrifiers are benthic ONLY, that means that they are only to be found attached to the substrata, occasionally small numbers are free-floating, but only in small numbers. And, assuming it's an established system, and understanding that these bacteria are like lemmings in that there are only as many as available nutrient sources can support, means that there are only very low concentrations of NH3, if any, and it's the same thing with nitrite as it is likely already oxidized and has left the resultant nitrate in the water column. We all know that nitrate is a form of nitrogen that plants like, so, barring salt or extremely alkaline, high pH water sources, that makes it perfect for our Mary. :)

I don't think my post makes sense, but I'm dry and my memory goes when I haven't got Mary to help me through my day. Sheesh.
Seamaiden..............BRAVO!!!(applause). You took the words right outta my mouth!! Not much that could be added to that. Your post makes perfect sense. If you're that good "Dry", I'd love to have a good conversation with ya over some good dank!! (I studied with Skip Moe at Mote.)

Yes, I believe aquarium water would be beneficial to our cause, but just HOW beneficial aquarium water vs rainwater would be a toss up. This gives me an idea to set up a rain barrel with aeration. Add some "living rock" from a lake or stream and throw in some Gambusia. Once it's established, I believe that it would provide most of the benefits you are looking for, without killing off your tank with too many water changes. Changing the water too much is a bad idea for your tank.
Great theory though..............Lets try it.
 

ISmokePotBecauseItsCool

Well-Known Member
Well so far my girls seem to be happy.....I have a well established aquarium that has a good area to fish ratio, and monitor my levels nonstop. Its always around 6.8 ph, about 40 ppm NO3, like 1 ppm NO2. Thats all i have test kits for atm, but I know theres also a very small amount of salt, as well all sorts of yummy trace elements and minerals. Also those that said I need to watch out for ammonia, I keep my tank clean, there is ammonia if any would be in such small amounts that they wouldnt really hurt anything, else my fish would be dead. I never have to make water changes, because my water changes itself. The only time that water changes are necessary is if your tank is not properly filtered and aerated for how many fish you have. Also, too many people dont give their tank time to set up its own nitrogen cycle. The Nitrogen cycle in my tank has been well established for years now, and I use several types of filtration as well as 2 24" airstones at the edges of my tank for surface agitation and water oxygenation. I use pricier airstones that I could only find online and are made with incredibly tiny holes that are perfect for oxygenation, so the water is to the point that it almost looks cloudy, so dense it is with micro air bubbles.
Most people dont realize, like with hydro/bubble set ups and all....they try to oxygenate their set up using regular airstones, which is impossible because the bubbles released by a regular airstone are too big and just go straight to the surface and disperse
At least this has been my conclusion from personal experience, I am obviously no expert, so feel free to correct anything I have said
 

ISmokePotBecauseItsCool

Well-Known Member
I also realize that while beneficial, Im going to need more than just fish water for my plants to really thrive
I am getting the ingredients together to make a batch of Subcool's organic soil, and also ordered a bottle of plant tonic from BMO so I think I should be alright
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
Well so far my girls seem to be happy.....I have a well established aquarium that has a good area to fish ratio, and monitor my levels nonstop. Its always around 6.8 ph, about 40 ppm NO3, like 1 ppm NO2. Thats all i have test kits for atm, but I know theres also a very small amount of salt, as well all sorts of yummy trace elements and minerals.
Your NO2 should be zero. There is something wrong with the biological filtration if it's not completely oxidizing the nitrogenous waste into its final nitrate (which can be further broken down by anaerobic bacteria in very low flow-rate areas into its components, including, finally, nitrogen gas which is dissipated into the atmosphere). Nitrite is almost as toxic as ammonia, and even at low levels stresses animals. You really want all at zero, and nitrate as low as possible (well below 40ppm).
Also those that said I need to watch out for ammonia, I keep my tank clean, there is ammonia if any would be in such small amounts that they wouldnt really hurt anything, else my fish would be dead.
Keeping your tank clean is the best way to ensure that the ammonia (initial output of nitrogenous waste) is not oxidized. Ammonia kills in a special way, too, so even low levels are, again, a big stressor because for the fish to truly be healthy and happy that is, in nature, at a level of zero.
A dirty tank is (generally) a healthy tank, just as a hungry fish is a healthy fish. :) This is because most people don't understand that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter, in order to do their thing (eat ammonia and oxidize it) they must be attached to a surface (substrate). They will not perform their functions if free-floating. Many people don't understand this and go at their gravel beds and all surfaces with the intention of getting them good and clean not realizing that they're removing the very bacteria that make aquatic life possible. Also, the statement about a dirty tank should not be taken to mean that one should never perform water changes.
I never have to make water changes, because my water changes itself. The only time that water changes are necessary is if your tank is not properly filtered and aerated for how many fish you have.
Um.. that's not right. Water changes are necessary because aquariums are extremely small closed systems that do not have all the "benefits" of the grand outdoor natural world. Even a 3,000 gallon system is going to need water changes because, in the scale of things, in the scale of where fish evolved and the completeness of their natural ecosystems that 3,000 gallons is paltry. There are, of course, exceptions, but they are extremely rare. There will, unless you have some SERIOUS filtration and a means by which to replace certain components in the water (like those yummy trace minerals you mentioned), be buildups of waste products that filtration will not effectively remove, as evidenced by your high nitrate readings.
Also, too many people dont give their tank time to set up its own nitrogen cycle. The Nitrogen cycle in my tank has been well established for years now, and I use several types of filtration as well as 2 24" airstones at the edges of my tank for surface agitation and water oxygenation. I use pricier airstones that I could only find online and are made with incredibly tiny holes that are perfect for oxygenation, so the water is to the point that it almost looks cloudy, so dense it is with micro air bubbles.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you have some of these concepts backwards. For instance, how the O2/CO2 exchange occurs. Those tiny-bubble making airstones are used primarily for foam fractionation, a form of chemical filtration which I can explain in more detail if you like. The main point I want to make, though, is that you're implying that the O2/CO2 exchange occurs within the water column, and this is false. It only occurs at the surface of the water column, and this is one of the reasons why we prefer a high surface-area-to-water-volume ratio, so that the CO2 is dispersed as thoroughly as possible and the O2 is absorbed to its greatest extent. Also, filling your tank with microbubbles is a good way to stress or even kill fish. Did you know that they can get what is essentially the bends, caused by microbubbles attaching to their gills and being absorbed directly into the bloodstream?
Most people dont realize, like with hydro/bubble set ups and all....they try to oxygenate their set up using regular airstones, which is impossible because the bubbles released by a regular airstone are too big and just go straight to the surface and disperse
With all due respect, this is an incorrect assertion. Bubbles in the water column do nothing except cause circulation of the water, from bottom to top, which allows the carbon dioxide to be dispersed into the atmosphere and allows oxygen to remain in solution at high enough levels to maintain aquatic life. THIS is the true function of bubbles in the water column, and there is not only no need for you to use anything that creates microbubbles, but in my experience they are less effective and can cause harm to the fish. These types of airstones really are best used for a very specific application, that being foam fractionation (also called protein skimming).
At least this has been my conclusion from personal experience, I am obviously no expert, so feel free to correct anything I have said
I do. :) Feel free, that is. And I'm not saying that your set-ups are not successful, but whether a fish is living or dead is not the only measure of success. For me, as with many other aquarists, it is seeing the animals thrive, as in growing and ultimately breeding.

If you'd like to do some reading with more in-depth explanations on the nitrogen cycle, the importance of water changes and how the CO2/O2 exchange works, please visit Wetwebmedia, Aquarium, Pond, Marine and Freshwater Fish, reef tanks, and Aquatics Information -- it's run by a good friend of mine, a man I used to work for MANY years ago. Bob is also an author of some very good books, one of the last of which I helped edit (and the glossary is entirely mine), The Natural Marine Aquarium--Reef Invertebrates. I used to help with site maintenance and the DailyFAQs, but that is demanding and my own life took precedence.

Btw, thank you lastpirate. :)
 

ISmokePotBecauseItsCool

Well-Known Member
As I said I am no expert nor do I pretend to be one
By saying I keep my tank clean, I suppose that was the incorrect way of saying what I meant. My tank keeps itself clean is what I meant, I rarely (usually once a month) vac the gravel as it uses and undergravel filter, which is a form of biological filtration. I also have a 3 stage filter system that uses a bio culture material that stays partially our of water and is used to grow mass amounts of beneficial bacteria, as well as ones that build in the sponge of the filter. I leave those alone, and only change out the carbon fiber in the carbon fiber insert, so the majority of cleaning in my tank is biological filtration. I should have specified better.
I suppose when I vac the gravel it is a partial water change in a way, but usually not more than 10-15 gallons once a month in a 95 gal tank
My understanding of the nitrogen cycle I realize is not great, as I am still working to learn and understand the exact chemistry behind all of this
I do know that I used regular air stones first, and then replaced them after finding that the ones I use now worked much more efficiantly
This is why I am here is to learn so I appreciate the advice and information from everyone
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
You're performing your maintenance perfectly. :D Now that you've explained your procedure I see that you've got it down. What fish do you keep?

WetWebMedia is a GOOGLEWHACK! (That gets me so stoked, like when Bob's photos are the only known photos of a particular species to be found on fishbase.org.)
 

ISmokePotBecauseItsCool

Well-Known Member
Right now I have 2 6" synodontis(sp?) catfish, 2 rainbow sharks (1 about 4" the other about 5 and 1/2"), 1 6" spotted Pictus Catfish, a few small snails that like to multiply, and 2 1" freshwater flounder that I am soon going to have to transfer to a brackish environment and eventually full salt
I am hoping to add more fish soon....and I want to get my saltwater tank set back up, I used to keep a reef tank with a bunch of blennies and crabs
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
Don't get yourself stuck by the Pictus cats, their spines hurt like a SONOFABITCH, and get infected really easily. I LOVE the whole family of synodontis cats, they're all African cats and all scaleless, and there are some real beauties in that genus. I very much like Pictus, too, just didn't like getting stuck.

Only fish I haven't kept for myself are New World cichlids, including discus. My husband and I have talked about setting up a discus tank, but he wants species only and I want a biotope. Arguments would surely ensue. So, I've been thinking I'll just get myself a few goldfish (because I still really like them, too). We both sold off our aquarium stuff years ago. We met on a reefkeeping website, too, so you know we're fishgeeks. :lol:
 

ISmokePotBecauseItsCool

Well-Known Member
I got stuck by an irridescent shark, that was painful
yes I love the synodontis family....mine are I believe called sailfin/featherfin catfish? Or something to that effect....they are like silver but very dark and mottled with dark brown and black patterns, with a very tall dorsal fin. Very pretty fish
The pictus is my garbage disposal, lol, he eats entire earthworms that I find in my yard, I dont even have to chop them up! Ive had him the longest...
Thats funny you met your husband on a reef site! I find I enjoy my aquarium more than anything just to sit with just the tanks lights on and watch and relax....and smoke a big fatty
 

whatuppp

Active Member
Don't get yourself stuck by the Pictus cats, their spines hurt like a SONOFABITCH, and get infected really easily. I LOVE the whole family of synodontis cats, they're all African cats and all scaleless, and there are some real beauties in that genus. I very much like Pictus, too, just didn't like getting stuck.

Only fish I haven't kept for myself are New World cichlids, including discus. My husband and I have talked about setting up a discus tank, but he wants species only and I want a biotope. Arguments would surely ensue. So, I've been thinking I'll just get myself a few goldfish (because I still really like them, too). We both sold off our aquarium stuff years ago. We met on a reefkeeping website, too, so you know we're fishgeeks. :lol:[/qu


However you do the Discus, I will just recommend having them!!! They are just some of the best fish to have!!! I had a pair of natural caught Discus and they were over 6 inches from mouth to tail, probably more like 7 inches, body diameter the size of large grapefruits. Very responsive fish that would get very attentive when I came home from work. When I moved from New Jersey to South Carolina I gave them to an avid fish enthusiast/ employee of our enormous local fish center.( i was way to fond of the pair and did not want to risk putting them through the long move, and them possibly not making it! Truly one of the nicest species of fish I have ever owned!!!:-D
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
They are gorgeous, aren't they? Wild-caught discus, eh? You know, a LOT of people have a LOT of trouble with the wild-caught animals. That says a lot for your skills.
 

ISmokePotBecauseItsCool

Well-Known Member
So I recently transplanted to larger pots
And I have a friend who gave me 3 1 month old plants he claimed to be "jamaican red hair", which Im not sure if thats even a real strain, let alone that this guy would have it...
anyways, my little seedlings seem to be doing fine since the transplant, but his 3 are very droopy...and when he gave them to me they had what looked like fert burn on the leaves and told me he had mixed miracle grow fert in with there dirt
fucking moron
anyways....so I kinda flushed them....but I am scared of killing them, considering they were just stressed through transplanting and dont seem very strong right now...any advice?
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
Wait and watch. If he burned them it might be too late, but it's worth a try. I would have done a flush as well. Hopefully they'll perk up once they realize no one's trying to kill them.
 

johnwashburnx30

Well-Known Member
hmm that's awesome, i actually have a tree in my living room that its leaves, are dying, turning pale yellow, im gonna feed it some water from my aquarium, then we will see if the water is good for my real trees, haha.

but what about stuff like fin rot? what if it becomes present in your tank, do you think a sickness in fish like that, would leak from the water to the plant? sounds too risky for me, thats why ill just make sure to keep a close eye on fish health in the aquarium, check for deficencies and stuff like that, color of the fish, brightness, behaviour, that way i can tell how healthy the water must be.

I'm glad you posted this, because i've thought of this before, but forgot about it, now i have learned about it and am gonna try it. thats just good karma :)
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
No, animal diseases don't usually cross over major phyla like that. I am sure your tree would appreciate a good feeding of fish poop. The only time I might really worry about disease would be if you're pulling the water from a planted tank in which the plants themselves are sick, but even then I know of nothing that crosses from aquatic species to terrestrial species.

Fish water and aquaria smell special, I love being in a gigantic fishroom because of the way it smells. I love cleaning out protein skimmers. :lol:
 

whatuppp

Active Member
They are gorgeous, aren't they? Wild-caught discus, eh? You know, a LOT of people have a LOT of trouble with the wild-caught animals. That says a lot for your skills.
Awwwww, Your sweet thanks!!! Well I had +++++ a lot ofhelp learning from some great aquarist and read a lot. If anyone lives in New Jersey the place to go is Tropiquarium in Ocean Township. They are huge and have phenomenal expertise in the area. In addition they will even take in homeless fish!!!lol

The fish started out about half there final size and I had them for several years. You'd be surprised how beautiful even the wild ones can be. This was many years ago and now with conservation in mind bred in captivity is definitely the way to go!

I would say the best rule with fish that also seems to apply to plants is that less is often more!!! ie: don't give your plants too much fertilizer and don't give your fish too much food...both can be toxic, and well check your water and often...:mrgreen:
 

johnwashburnx30

Well-Known Member
No, animal diseases don't usually cross over major phyla like that. I am sure your tree would appreciate a good feeding of fish poop. The only time I might really worry about disease would be if you're pulling the water from a planted tank in which the plants themselves are sick, but even then I know of nothing that crosses from aquatic species to terrestrial species.

Fish water and aquaria smell special, I love being in a gigantic fishroom because of the way it smells. I love cleaning out protein skimmers. :lol:

thanks for the info! thats awesome, i have since (i think i posted this 4 days ago maybe) fed my tree some water from the fish tub, and it seems to love it. it has new srpouts too that i just noticed yesterday, but im not sure if those just came because it was read to sprout or what,

but youre right i love just standing ina pet shop by all the fish tanks, its such a good smell.:peace:
 

xxDogTagZxx

Well-Known Member
Hey guys i started my first grow ever with the aero garden pro 200.. I used fish water from my fresh tank.. But u have to consider if u are doing hydroponcs the ph should be between 5.5-5.8 is perfect ph. Ph in fish water is high at 6.8-7.5.. So u need to watch out what u do. I would put in 1 bottle of fish water and fill the rest with fresh poland spring water. Then i would add a little bit of ph downer just to make sure the ph was below 6. But after 2 months i cut down on the fish water and kept usin fresh poland springs. It seemed like everytime i added the fish water my leaves would get nute burn.. They would get yellow spots on the tips and even worse it would have brown burn spots. Im not a 100% positive that it was the fish water but since i stopped my plants are getting better.. Also 12 out of 15 of my fish died so it could be the water itself. The pet store told me that u need to let the fish tank sit by itself with no fish with the filter running for 6-8 weeks so the water can go thru its nitrogen cycle. My girl didnt listen she bought the tank let it run for a day then bought the fish. I have a alage suker, cat fish and a neon fish are the only survivors in my fish tank. So like i said it could be my water.. Im gonna try again on my next grow. Gonna add some more fish and see if it goes a lil better.. But my buds on this grow are lookin good and i havent used any top of the line nutes. Ive been usin the stock ag nutes on some bag seed. Hope i was a help guys i like this thread ive been lookin for 1 of these since i have been doin it 2 months ago.
 
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