Are You In?

Dude I saw Mit talking about how we shouldn't close coal mines because of the job loss, this prolly means be will just create more. It means more jobs but at what cost? I think their are better ways creating jobs, he thinks wind energy isn't worth it. That guy will speed up global warming times 10 if he takes control, the man is an idiot and blind. I much rather have Obama than him, only because Obama understand how to read facts.

Trolling said:

Dude I saw Mit talking about how we shouldn't close coal mines because of the job loss, this prolly means be will just create more. It means more jobs but at what cost? I think their are better ways creating jobs, he thinks wind energy isn't worth it. That guy will speed up global warming times 10 if he takes control, the man is an idiot and blind. I much rather have Obama than him, only because Obama understand how to read facts.

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Is wind energy worth it? Can a windmill generate enough power to run the process of making another identical windmill? cn

cannabineer said:

Is wind energy worth it? Can a windmill generate enough power to run the process of making another identical windmill? cn

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Not sure what you mean but it defiently is worth it, even if they are an eye sore to some, beautiful to me....plus we can have solar energy and even water energy to help, their is more than one way of going green and not having to depend so much on fossil fuels.

Livermore uses wind power and that's where UC Berkeley has their linear accelerator. So I would argue that yes indeed windmills are worth it.

i think the main problem with wind power is getting it to the areas that need it. at least i vaguely remember that being the problem in so cal.

Trolling said:

Not sure what you mean but it defiently is worth it, even if they are an eye sore to some, beautiful to me....plus we can have solar energy and even water energy to help, their is more than one way of going green and not having to depend so much on fossil fuels.

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I like windmills. I don't mind how they look and sound. There's a mess of them in Tehachapi, and every time I drove by they were turning.

There's also a mess at Altamont, and they're mostly idle. It makes me wonder ... are they cost-ineffective without the subsidy?

But my bigger question is this: will a windmill return as much or more energy as/than it used in its making? I can't find a good analysis. cn

I think that would depend on placement, I'll also have to read into this more, I'll see what I can find later.

cannabineer said:

I like windmills. I don't mind how they look and sound. There's a mess of them in Tehachapi, and every time I drove by they were turning.

There's also a mess at Altamont, and they're mostly idle. It makes me wonder ... are they cost-ineffective without the subsidy?

But my bigger question is this: will a windmill return as much or more energy as/than it used in its making? I can't find a good analysis. cn

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http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/pdfs/wpa/34600_landowners_faq.pdf

11. How much do wind turbines cost?
Wind farms cost approximately $1 million per megawatt of
installed capacity.
12. How much does a wind farm earn?
A 1.5-MW wind turbine will produce approximately 5,000,000
kWh per year―enough to power about 500 homes. At
$0.04/kWh, the turbine would earn $200,000 per year in gross
revenue.

Is that good? It sounds good, I'm a little slow at understanding sometimes. =/

Trolling said:

Is that good? It sounds good, I'm a little slow at understanding sometimes. =/

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in my area it would pay for it self in 1.5 years IF the wind blows

Wordz said:

in my area it would pay for it self in 1.5 years IF the wind blows

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minus upkeep and maintenance. i hear they sometimes use electric power to get the things turning initially and can then let the wind take it from there.

That's good then, all about the most efficient placement.

Wordz said:

http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/pdfs/wpa/34600_landowners_faq.pdf

11. How much do wind turbines cost?
Wind farms cost approximately $1 million per megawatt of
installed capacity.
12. How much does a wind farm earn?
A 1.5-MW wind turbine will produce approximately 5,000,000
kWh per year―enough to power about 500 homes. At
$0.04/kWh, the turbine would earn $200,000 per year in gross
revenue.

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These are the only sorts of analyses I could find ... they use price and return as the criteria. I'm asking a different question, one independent of prices ... since those reflect subsidy rather than actual cost.
But i read somewhere that the energy returned by a windmill is currently less than the energy that went into making it from scratch. The magnets, the wiring, the aluminum, those big blades ... awesomely energy- and resource-intensive to make, esp. with the energy-intensive mining of ever more marginal supplies for copper, neodymium, and the other commodity materials needed for the generator.
Unfortunately I can't find that breakdown anywhere. cn

cannabineer said:

These are the only sorts of analyses I could find ... they use price and return as the criteria. I'm asking a different question, one independent of prices ... since those reflect subsidy rather than actual cost.
But i read somewhere that the energy returned by a windmill is currently less than the energy that went into making it from scratch. The magnets, the wiring, the aluminum, those big blades ... awesomely energy- and resource-intensive to make, esp. with the energy-intensive mining of ever more marginal supplies for copper, neodymium, and the other commodity materials needed for the generator.
Unfortunately I can't find that breakdown anywhere. cn

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*Holds up hand*
I think I have to take credit for your windmill info search - I made that statement not too long ago in a thread & suppose I should give you a bit of history on it.
Our local electrical provider recently installed several of the behemoths & that statement was made at a "town hall" meeting weighing the pros & cons of the units. One of the speakers made that very statement (essentially verbatim) & queried the windmill representatives - they acknowledged that it was true.
I never have seen it in print, I just took it as gospel due to the lack of rebuttal by the manufacturer rep.

I'll poke around a bit & see if I can prove/disprove my own statement now.

cannabineer said:

I like windmills. I don't mind how they look and sound. There's a mess of them in Tehachapi, and every time I drove by they were turning.

There's also a mess at Altamont, and they're mostly idle. It makes me wonder ... are they cost-ineffective without the subsidy?

But my bigger question is this: will a windmill return as much or more energy as/than it used in its making? I can't find a good analysis. cn

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I suspect that windmills are a lot like hydro - huge up front costs. I doubt that they are capable of making money without some sort of government help. I suspect however that once the cost of fuel goes up (either environmentaly or fiscaly) they will do just fine.

canndo said:

I suspect that windmills are a lot like hydro - huge up front costs. I doubt that they are capable of making money without some sort of government help. I suspect however that once the cost of fuel goes up (either environmentaly or fiscaly) they will do just fine.

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But the cost of fuel going up will directly affect the costs of manufacturing windmills. I see no "out" there. cn

Trolling said:

Not sure what you mean but it defiently is worth it, even if they are an eye sore to some, beautiful to me....plus we can have solar energy and even water energy to help, their is more than one way of going green and not having to depend so much on fossil fuels.

Click to expand...

Hydro-power installations completely destroy the local environment. All these things you speak of help, but can't come close to meeting the demand. Cars are a hundred times cleaner now than they were 50 years ago. We can clean up coal emissions, too, it's expensive tho. Natural gas production is soaring. We're a long way from a fossil fuel free economy. The corn based methanol fuel uses more oil than it replaces and is causing food prices to go up dramatically. The "cure" is worse than the disease. If windmill power has to be subsidized to remain viable, those using it should be the ones paying the price, not the taxpayer. This is how Al Gore went from a $3 million net worth to a $93 million net worth since leaving office. He's raking in a fortune pushing the global warming theory.

Red1966 said:

Hydro-power installations completely destroy the local environment. All these things you speak of help, but can't come close to meeting the demand. Cars are a hundred times cleaner now than they were 50 years ago. We can clean up coal emissions, too, it's expensive tho. Natural gas production is soaring. We're a long way from a fossil fuel free economy. The corn based methanol fuel uses more oil than it replaces and is causing food prices to go up dramatically. The "cure" is worse than the disease. If windmill power has to be subsidized to remain viable, those using it should be the ones paying the price, not the taxpayer. This is how Al Gore went from a $3 million net worth to a $93 million net worth since leaving office. He's raking in a fortune pushing the global warming theory.

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Cars are actually not a hundred times cleaner ... they're about twice as clean. While the catalytic converter has done wonders for the cosmetically irritating pollutants, the scary one has been cut only in half. And it would have been cut more if pickups and derivative vehicles, with their big appetites, were not so popular.
But hydro at least fulfills the green requirement: a dam produces enough energy to allow us to build other dams. The physical investment needed to build a hydro plant or a fuel-burning power station is smalll enough to make the venture practical. I am concerned however that our two best current "green" sources of energy, solar and wind, have not yet reached breakeven in terms of total cost to make the source v. power received from it over its use lifetime.

But I agree with your other point: hydroelectricity is not good for a healthy watershed, and silt limits the lifetime of the reservoir. cn

Global warming is not a theory, it's real.

Also, Neil Tyson says it is and I will gladly follow that man blindly. I dunno the solution to a completely green world but I do know we need to find one soon and if we are indeed a long way off, gas prices are gonna be a scary thought, everyone is gonna need hybrids in the future. All I know is of we don't come up with a solution soon, Florida is gonna be underwater and the weather is just gonna get weirder and more worse.

Dams destroy the land and everything on it. The loss of habitat is large. What "scary one" are you referring to? Windmills kill birds. Solar cells require rare and expensive materials just not found in the USA. Thermo-solar is a better option in my opinion. I venture any source of power has drawbacks. I can tell you this, people will revolt before they give up their comfortable homes, cars, and other luxuries plentiful energy brings.