Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
^^^^^Now this is something alright..............No shit!!

Edit: wait a minute...........the ppf/w is .39 for the HPS???that is way to low even for an unfavorable spec like an HPS....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
http://w.pat.tc/WO2011033177A2



The high-pressure sodium (HPS) lamp has been the preferred light source for year-round crop production in greenhouses. The main reasons have been the high radiant emission, low price, long life time, high PAR emission and high electrical efficiency. These factors have allowed the use of high-pressure sodium lamps as supplemental lighting sources supporting vegetative growth in a cost-effective way during wintertime in northern latitudes. However, the spectral quality in HPSs lamps is not optimal for promoting photosynthesis and photomorphogenesis, resulting in excessive leaf and stem elongation. This is due to the unbalanced spectral emission in relation to the absorption peaks of important [0015] photosynthetic pigments such as chlorophyll a, chlorophyll b and betacarotene. The low R/FR ratio and low blue light emission in comparison with other sources induces excessive stem elongation to most of the crops grown under HPS lighting. Electrical efficiencies of high-pressure sodium lamps are typically within 30 % and 40 %, which make them the most energy- efficient light sources used nowadays in plant growth. Approximately 40 % of the input energy is converted into photons inside the PAR region and almost 25 % to 30 % into far-red and infra red. The operation times of high pressure sodium lamps are in the range from about 10,000 to 24,000 hours
[0094] A LED lighting fixture was constructed for comparison testing purposes based on the single LED device having identical output spectrum of the Figure 3. The lighting fixture consisted of 60 individual LED units having a power consumption of 69 W which includes the power consumption of the AC/DC constant current driver.
[0095] The comparison devices were commercial HPS (High Pressure Sodium) lamp greenhouse lighting fixture with total power consumption of 420W and commercial LED greenhouse LED fixture. The commercial LED fixture was based on individual blue and red LED devices having total power consumption of 24W.
[0096] The LED lighting fixture according to the present invention was tested against the above- mentioned commercial LED devices using following PPF measurement procedure and arrangement.
[0097] PAR irradiance (irradiance value between 400 nm and 700 nm) and PPF- values were calculated by measuring the light fixture spectra from 300 nm to 800 nm and absolute irradiance value at band from 385 nm to 715 nm. The spectrum of each lamp were measured with ILT700A spectroradio meter at one distance. The absolute irradiance- values were measured with precision pyranometer at certain distances and were later used to calculate the absolute spectra to these distances. These absolute spectra were used to calculate PAR- and PPF calculations. PAR-irradiance (W/m[SUP]2[/SUP]) was calculated by integrating the absolute spectrum from 400 nm to 700 nm. PPF-values were calculated by first translating the irradiance value of each "channel" of the spectrum from W/m[SUP]2[/SUP] to microeinsteins and then integrating this spectrum over the desired wavelength band.
[0098] The comparison result of these two commercial greenhouse lamp fixtures and the LED fixture according to the innovation are presented in the table below. The results are also normalized against the commercial HPS lighting fixture. Type HPS Ref. Grow LED LED of Invention
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
^^^^^
What he said!!

Though, I didn't realize the huge leap in efficiency, if this is true........
That would mean 300-400 watts of led (or less) replaces 1k of HPS.

If I had the money: (simplified!)
Turn the led/diode into a transistor.
Control the phosphors with the base.
Treat the spectrum as a wave and shift the thing red or blue predicated on base current.
This could also be configured in a triode or pentode configuration.

Control the spectrum of the luminaire with a graphic equalizer with all of the leds putting out the same bandwidth and frequency response.

Oh to dream.

The rhetorical question.

How many runs would it take to fined the sweet spot at a given stage of development?
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
^^^^^
What he said!!

Though, I didn't realize the huge leap in efficiency, if this is true........
That would mean 300-400 watts of led (or less) replaces 1k of HPS.
Close.....
If I had the money: (simplified!)
No need for that big amount of money...
If you want to keep with DIY in that way ,I suggest you start searching for a small but quality led manufacturer..
With some e-mails,you won't believe how many things you can "customise" ,even for small orders (i.e. 300-500 leds... )


Turn the led/diode into a transistor.
Control the phosphors with the base.
Treat the spectrum as a wave and shift the thing red or blue predicated on base current.
This could also be configured in a triode or pentode configuration.?????
Meaning ? ----Simplified..My electronics are bit rusty there...
Control the spectrum of the luminaire with a graphic equalizer with all of the leds putting out the same bandwidth and frequency response.

Oh to dream.

The rhetorical question.

How many runs would it take to fined the sweet spot at a given stage of development?
Oh ..plenty I guess ,but not so many as one may think...
Astir is finding it's " way " there ,step by step....
Still I think ,that customised WW & CW (<=YAG / silicate combo phosphors,there ) ,
along with some good-old & stable 620-640 nm reds,is a very good/decent way...

One good thing with small asian led manufacturers is the "customising " ability ,even at small orders..
And for few bucks more ,you can have even gold plated contacts

..Or even.....

Rhodium ( Rh ) plated, silver (Ag ) internal led mirror layer ....
And not just common used ,plain polished aluminium.... http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/22/jresv22n1p93_A1b.pdf
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Yeah I still don't buy it/it's for a patent...........A good quality(philips) 400w hps bulb will put out around 600umol/s ( can't link on my phone) and I'm not even going to bring up the Gavita 1000w hps system that get's over 1.5ppf/w .......then their is the king philips 315w agro elite(cmh) which almost hits 2 ppf/w!!! hid is not dead yet SDS....


Rhodium??.....ha you know damn well that aluminum has excellent reflective properties for the price.....almost unbeatable:P
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Yeah I still don't buy it/it's for a patent...........A good quality(philips) 400w hps bulb will put out around 600umol/s ( can't link on my phone) and I'm not even going to bring up the Gavita 1000w hps system that get's over 1.5ppf/w .......then their is the king philips 315w agro elite(cmh) which almost hits 2 ppf/w!!! hid is not dead yet SDS....

read carefully what it is said in the patent....

The spectrum of each lamp were measured with ILT700A spectroradio meter at one distance.

The absolute irradiance- values were measured with precision pyranometer at certain distances and were later used to calculate the absolute spectra to these distances.

These absolute spectra were used to calculate PAR- and PPF calculations.

PAR-irradiance (W/m[SUP]2[/SUP]) was calculated by integrating the absolute spectrum from 400 nm to 700 nm.

PPF-values were calculated by first translating the irradiance value of each "channel" of the spectrum from W/m[SUP]2[/SUP] to microeinsteins and then integrating this spectrum over the desired wavelength band.



Don't trust the companies....

Philips says that 400W Green power has 725umol /sec/m^2 ....(for 120 Watt light output has 6.041 umol/watt !!!!!! .. )

While the diffused sunlight for 400 W/m^2 irradiance has a PPD of 2000umol/sec/m^2 ( 5 umol/sec/m^2 )


How and at what distance they 've measured those 725 umol/sec ?

hid is dead,my brother....
It's just the funeral, that takes long...
....
Too many 'relatives' and 'old friends',you see ....
And some are crying ,their guts out ,all over the corpse ...
Not wanting to believe ,that it's gone for good.....
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
Yeah I still don't buy it/it's for a patent...........A good quality(philips) 400w hps bulb will put out around 600umol/s ( can't link on my phone) and I'm not even going to bring up the Gavita 1000w hps system that get's over 1.5ppf/w .......then their is the king philips 315w agro elite(cmh) which almost hits 2 ppf/w!!! hid is not dead yet SDS....
Cycloptics is about to go commercial with their luminaire. It ain't cheep. About $600.00 a pop.
According to them it will take 2 fixtures to cover a 3x3 tray.

Excerpt from email with Cycloptics.

8 All-Bright in 36 sq ft = 1,167 micromoles X .97 (95% Mylar vs. 98% WhiteOptics) = 1,130 micromoles X 25% the area (9 sq ft vs. 36 sq ft) = 2 All-Bright delivering average intensity of 1,130 micromoles at 32” below apertures of All-Bright luminaires. With the units 50% dimmable you can deliver between approximately 565 and 1,130 micromoles.

The price for the 2 All-Bright luminaires including the Elite Agro 315W CMH lamp and without the Philips ballast will be $445.00 each. We accept Visa and can prepay and add the shipping via UPS ground. Let me know how you would like to proceed.
So in my situation the initial purchase price is a wash, led vs Elite Agro.


This could also be configured in a triode or pentode configuration.?????
Meaning ? ----Simplified..My electronics are bit rusty there...
Multiple base legs to the transistor, each leg modulates the emitter collector junction in their own way.
As it has to do with leds.
Have say 3 layers of phosphors. All electrically manipulated. Each base leg controls a particular phosphor.

If I had the money: (simplified!)
No need for that big amount of money...
I have no relationships with any factory's, nor do I have the chemistry lab to do the basic research.
If you have those relationships, contact me off line and I can go into great detail on how this can be accomplished.

How many runs would it take to fined the sweet spot at a given stage of development?
Oh ..plenty I guess ,but not so many as one may think...
Astir is finding it's " way " there ,step by step....
That's the problem, we have to make another luminaire every time we make a change, or pull one down out of production.
This is not the most efficient way to do things.

Also the plant counts are small per run. (control group???)
Consistency between tests???
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Rhodium??.....ha you know damn well that aluminum has excellent reflective properties for the price.....almost unbeatable:P


Which it oxidises to a semitransparent layer of aluminium oxide ....
(And I stated...: " for few bucks more...." )
Although the silvering on a second surface mirror such as a household mirror is often actual silver the "silvering" on precision optical instruments such as telescopes is usually aluminum. Even though silver has the best initial front-surface reflectivity in the visible spectrum it is unsuitable for optical mirrors because it quickly oxidizes* and absorbs atmospheric sulfur to create a dark, low-reflectivity tarnish.

Although aluminum also oxidizes quickly, the thin aluminum oxide (sapphire) layer is transparent, and so the high-reflectivity underlying aluminum stays visible.

The "silvering" on infrared instruments is usually gold. It has the best reflectivity in the infrared spectrum, and has high resistance to oxidation and corrosion.
*That's why the plating of silver with rhodium....


Aluminium "oxidizes" (in fact decomposes due to slowly occuring electro-erosion .
Surface gets tiny holes all over ....
) also from electric current ,that is used to operate the led die ....


Optical coatings for alum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_coating


Rhodium anti-corrosive properties under constant/regular electric current :

It may also be used in coating sterling silver to protect against tarnish, which is silver sulfide (Ag[SUB]2[/SUB]S) produced from the atmospheric hydrogen sulfide (H[SUB]2[/SUB]S). Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price.[SUP][34][/SUP] Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solution
Other uses



Rhodium foil and wire


Rhodium is used as an alloying agent for hardening and improving the corrosion resistance[SUP][15][/SUP] of platinum and palladium. These alloys are used in furnace windings, bushings for glass fiber production, thermocouple elements, electrodes for aircraft spark plugs, and laboratory crucibles.[SUP][36][/SUP] Other uses include:

check out :

Rhodium metal is also used in the manufacture of super-hard mirrors to be subjected to high temperatures, as well as glass for use in high-powered laser systems.

Rhodium alloys are used in industry to make contact pairs, due to the high resistance of rhodium to electro-erosion.
http://invetec21.com/elements/16.html


http://www.vincelewis.net/rhodium.html

Rhodium is the most reflective element in the periodic table and finds application in specialist mirrors for light houses, high performance car head lamps and searchlights. It is also used for front-coated dental mirrors where its resistance to scratching is useful.
http://www.theodoregray.com/periodictabledisplay/Elements/045/index.s7.html


 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Update:

first day of 3rd transition week .
From today till next Saturday cycle is 12.30' / 11.30 ' ...


Now...
First checked was the wattage ...
With extraction fan on ,9x 120mm (12 v )fans on and 8x panels on : 265 Watts all on.jpg
With extraction fan off ,9 x 120mm (12 v ) fans off and 8 x panels on : 190 Watts only 8 panels on.jpg


Then ,afterwards the feeding procedure,follows : preparing nutes.jpgplacing nutes.jpgfeeding.jpg....

And no more leakages (just spills from the sprayers ): no leakages.jpg



The girls ,43 days after they've emerged from ground :
lstr 15 1.jpglstr 15 2.jpglstr 15 3.jpglstr 15 4.jpgmain trunk 43rd day.jpg
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
To whomever wrote this;

I never said anything negative about Astir, but you sure came on the quickness to their defense, but whatever, my whole point was Petflora constantly posting the same exact post everywhere, and I did not subscribe this thread to see his recommendations for something that he has no clue about, so I said something. Maybe if he tried the Astir panels he'd have a valid recommendation, but still shouldn't do it in people's journals.

Ok ,Probably you're right about that....But still it's his right to do so....He didn't break any "rules"...

What my crude attempt is showing is that Astir's concept is more than valid. No I am not using Astirs panels, but I am using low watt white leds + a 3 yo ufo 90 (R:B) v my HOT5 lights + aquarium bulbs which approximate led spectrums.

And since the two tents are neck and neck, in spite of the fact that my HOT5 tent has 3-6Xs the watts, that should help people understand what Astir is doing works as advertised. I expect to be a customer in the near future

If Astir (or in this case, SDS) has a problem with me posting, he can let me know, but I think he gets it. I'm helping prove his concept
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
It's not a matter of "if should be used " and "at what stage " ....

Of course it has to "be there ", at "all times " ..

The "problem " is "how much of it" and "combined with what else "....
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
^^^ Well said!

As it relates to my response to 'whomever'. If we don't correct bad behavior, then by our silence, they assume we condone it.

At that very moment, we become culpable, otherwise known as Enablers. Look around, bad behavior has multiplied like rabbits

If WE don't hold this behavior accountable, who will?
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
It's not a matter of "if should be used " and "at what stage " ....

Of course it has to "be there ", at "all times " ..

The "problem " is "how much of it" and "combined with what else "....
And what percentage...

Why does 660 have to be there at all times? Physically, yes, but not necessarily switched on. I have long been suggesting 660 @ ~ 7-10%, but on a separate circuit, just in case
a particular strain/s doesn't like it.

If you recall, I used 1/8 last grow, during the last 3 weeks of flower. Those plants took forever to get any amber trics, or for that matter many trics. Still, it is excellent. A very small amount kicks my ass for hours.

So 1/8 bulbs = 12.5%, which was too much, but my fixture is an 8 bulb. So one, or none. I can twist mine in/out. You can too, just put 660 on a separate circuit
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
^^^ Well said!

As it relates to my response to 'whomever'. If we don't correct bad behavior, then by our silence, they assume we condone it.

At that very moment, we become culpable, otherwise known as Enablers. Look around, bad behavior has multiplied like rabbits

If WE don't hold this behavior accountable, who will?
Yeap!
...........
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Why does 660 have to be there at all times? Physically, yes, but not necessarily switched on. I have long been saying 660 @ ~ 7-10%, but on a separate circuit, just in case a particular strain/s doesn't like it

Look...

This wl range ( 650-680 nm ) of so called deep reds,is totally necessary..
Both for Photosynthesis and Phytochrome activation (and everything else,from there...)..

Thing is that the " boundaries " of "useful" and "a bit much "(<= which means a bit much of many other things...Very ..."regulatory" wavelenght range,to be in excess...),are not well defined for every different plant/species/kind...
So ..Careful steps there...
It is not what it may seem ...Bearin' only gifts...
But that wl range is absolutely necessary...

My personal point of view is that 660 nm reds (with red light being difficult to disperse,already.. )are way to powerfull to be used alone..
They need other " counteracting" wl ranges ...At blue and FR ...And maybe in some green/yellows (if lower canopy & buds are of a concern...)


But..My " way " is only phosphor leds ...
They keep advancing all the time ....
In fact I do not want any kind of red or FR ( AlGaAsP or AlInGaP dies ) ....

Take a glimpse at this :

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120161170
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Rhodium!!!! had no idea......always learning something new in here:).............So you think Philips and other major corporations are not being totally truthful about their products in a capitalist market??;-)...............

@tenthirty......wow at that price $450 without the ballast??? that's a damn shame, really liked the "allbright" system; puts it off the table for allot of growers. I wonder why they suggest two allbrights for a 3x3 tray, seems like overkill to me........


So who's going to a test run with an all warm white panel????? Chronikool's grows have me believing this may work wonderfully.......

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/400W-High-Power-LED-floodlights-Spotlights-LED-tunnel-lights/684559507.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Led-120w-tunnel-light-13000lm-Led-Street-lamp-AC85-265V/615805081.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/70W-LED-high-power-LED-Tunnel-Light-LED-Streetlights-Plant-light-playground-lights/555226856.html


Don't make me do it!!!!.....................ha
 
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