Atheism

morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
So....
I just tried to track down the bible passage on prayer where it's said that you can pray for anything and it will come to pass and you can even summon the "divine" one to you. I had it before, but can't remember where it was off-hand.

I constantly see people proclaim prayer works on one side, while other people pray fervently for dying and sick family members or other causes to no effect.
So either prayer works or it doesn't.

If it works, I wondered, why is it so selective?

Is there only so much bandwidth available in the prayer tubes? When a football player gets down on one knee to pray before a play, has he diverted prayer effectiveness away from the mother whose child is dying of dysentery? If everyone stopped praying for useless, stupid shit right this moment and only prayed to end sickness, famine, and war, would it all come to an end right then and there?

Suppose any of that were possible?

And suppose that the character of Jesus will never make an appearance until the only prayer is selfless prayer.

Of course I'm just making it all up as a hypothetical. But say I forwarded it to Pat Robertson, and he liked the idea (it doesn't benefit him so I doubt he would) and evangelized it tomorrow.
Millions of people would instantly reboot their concept of prayer and do it Pat's way.

Without evidence. Without reason.
 
Babs34

Babs34

Well-Known Member
Katatawnic said:
SHEESH! I'm not even high, and I'm rambling like crazy today! :lol:
LOL, today is the first day I've laid off the smoke in um.....a REALLY long time, so forgive my rambling--my mind's all over the place. I think I should pause for a moment to toke:::::::::::
One toke later "helped."

Back then, he said he chose to take it because if he fought back he'd get beaten more severely, whereas if he took it then it would end soon.
This was the situation with my boy. Prior to knocking the boy upside the head, he had been simply moving upon dictation to "keep the peace." That boy obviously just continued to taunt and my son finally met his breaking point.
If the truth be known, I blame him for the way he handled it, but I also blame myself. I really need to consistently take time out to dig into that little brain of his. I am both Mom and Dad, so I'm spreading myself thin.

There is no rationality at this point, and the urge/thought of "I want to kill!" is instinct. He knows that I wasn't "condoning" the violence; rather, assuring him that the thoughts that came with the violence are natural and normal.)
Now here is where school "officials" SO miserably FAIL. I don't underestimate his severe frustration. (There's a lot more involved than I mentioned.) This other child has been terrorizing him for years now.
It's not easy keeping that balance when sending a life-long message to your child as to how to deal with bullies.
I don't even think most adults have mastered that one.
Without getting into details, the school has taken it upon themselves to handle it in an outrageously questionable manner!
That aside, the message we send to our children is of upmost importance.
Angered as I was for the entire outcome, I managed to keep the focus on what "he" did wrong and how "he" could have more responsibly handled it. The other boy's father showed up at the school office obnoxiously"babying"him. :rolleyes:
I swear it's a tough call.....because I DON'T want to raise him to be a pansy on the one hand, but yet I wish to show him smarter alternatives.
Had he stood up to the bullying years earlier, R would have backed off, and violence as severe as this incident would likely have never occurred
I sincerely hope that when my son goes back to school on Monday, this other boy will have a newfound "sense" when opting to screw with my boy. Mind you, this is not a feeling I've shared with him.....but yanno......I'm his momma and I don't care to see my son being treated like this! It seriously BREAKS MY HEART.
I have to say that my son thoroughly impressed me when giving me the scenario of how he would handle this should it happen again.

I'm not giving you an answer or solution, nor telling anyone how to raise their kids in the least. (Though I can completely understand why your son snapped, as I do with mine. lol) Just saying it's a B.S. situation all around, and finding a solution to such issues would most likely be the end to not just "playground" bullying, but also the end to terrorism, war, etc.
Thanks for sharing. Believe it or not, it helps. I share wholeheartedly your views on all of this.
Terrorism will never end. Whether it's worldwide or amongst your own family members, "loved" ones in general......so very sad.
Where people could and should be good to oneanother. and righteously judge when only necessary, there are indescrepancies (to say the least) regarding human behavior.
If I had it my way, I'd be on my own remote island. :bigjoint:
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Babs34

Babs34

Well-Known Member
Woodstock.Hippie said:
Humanisty has been exceedingly intelligent for an exceedingly long time In Our Minds and has done very well with the tools at hand.
Don't be fooled for a second that native savages are less human than you.
We just have different realities because our perceptions are different.

Christianity is older than the modern bible books.
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You mean to say I was ever wrong? :-P:bigjoint:
 
jfgordon1

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin

Religion is for the weak minded.. it's sad really. I don't need an invisible friend. :lol:
 
Babs34

Babs34

Well-Known Member
shnkrmn said:
It's not unreasonable to want those who wish to impose their worldview on EVERYONE to cease trying to do so.
So, you handle this how? By killing and fighting a "people" who have no ill-will towards you or by intelligently addressing those who are adamant on making you minced meat?
Only one logical choice there as I see it.

The problem with people of faith is they try to use their collective numbers and institutions to dictate to the rest of us. We can be regularly damned to the fiery pit but should we push back against the believers we are damned for being anti-christian and therefore somehow bigoted in some fashion.

Dictate? America really knows dictatorship, eh?
Who cares if a certain collective group claims you are hell bound? You don't believe in it anyway! :-P
Why should it even bother you? :?
Really, it's just pure self-defense.
Defense against what exactly?
Apparently religious folk can organize into churches and use all sorts of militaristic, expansionist imagery (Onward, Christian Soldiers, missionaries 'fighting for unsaved souls, threaten unbelievers with the fiery flames, etc), but if atheists try to gather support for their point of view, rent a billboard, hold a rally, it's considered an attack against religion (and country, in the good ole USA).

YIKES!!! Some of you have so obviously never encountered a "normal" Christian....geeez.
BTW, "fighting" for an unsaved soul doesn't entail violence.



There's nothing mean about pushing back against the tide of lies and myths which threatens to engulf us seculars from every side
Um, yeah...those evil and nutty Christians are America's "numero uno" concern.
Aye yi yi.

At least I can laugh at some of these Jehovah's witnesses (yet still respectively get along with them)
OR playfully mock a fellow Christian......some of you are just scary!
What's up with all the HATE?
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Babs34

Babs34

Well-Known Member
PadawanBater said:
Babs, you get crazier and crazier each post! Now it's to the point of incoherent giberish...
Speaking of nuts, here we go again.:rolleyes:
I'll make it easy for you... (or any other believers reading along who think they might have answers to these questions)

Since this is a thread about atheism and all..
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.........No, you didn't just say that. SINCERELY LMAOOOOOOOOO. :bigjoint:

-What is the strongest secular (outside the bible) evidence that supports Christianity?
Been there, said that. I do so hate to repeat myself.
You didn't absorb "scientific" value case one....move along lil soldier.
-Do you acknowledge evolution is how huma.beings got here? That our ancestors were once sea dwelling animals, then the descendants of them developed the tools and abilities neccessary to walk and survive on land... gills to lungs and fins to feet/wrists/ankles, and such, then later mammals emerged, then primates, then us? Or do you think everything that currently exists now has always existed in it's present form, and all animals have existed alongside eachother (cows with veloceraptors, buffalo with sabertooth tigers, etc...) since creation?
Rhetorical question. Why don't you comprehend common English?
<<<I do not take the Bible literally, nor do I proclaim to be the genius of the universe who will rain all answers on Lil P.
P, you could spend your entire life attempting to prove "whatever it is you wish to prove".......life just keeps happening. Why not just roll with it and relax a little? No scientist in your lifetime (or ever for that matter) is going to disprove God. Why don't you get that? There will ALWAYS be something bigger than you in every sense of the word. The answers are endless. No matter how long science (as "you" see it) exists, there will ALWAYS be the next "challenge." We just don't get to have all the answers....no matter what the advancements.
-What have you got to say about DNA and it's ability to tell us about the past?
Yawn Lil P....coming from the boy whose god is science, and claims science NOT responsible for finding the cure to disease.......you wish to discuss DNA?
Get back to me when you grow up. (and have expertise as a geneticist)

-Is all life related or not?
Asking questions is wonderful, repeating them to those who do not have the answers is childish. But guess what Lil p?
You have fewer answers than I.

-Can someone be moral without believing in a god?
Repetitive, but I'll indulge......yeap, they sure can. (but not when their prime goal in life is to downplay Christians)
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Inviolate

Inviolate

Member
CrackerJax said:
Certainly the best way would be to send a "son" to a remote area of the planet before mass communication is invented, and then have him get killed and nobody records the event for 40 years or so, and then only one story is actually written by the ppl who were never there.

Oh wait ... that's been done. NVM...



I'm sorry, did you say something? :lol:

I agree with you. Crazy huh....
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So besides that there's no other feasible method, seriously?
 
Inviolate

Inviolate

Member
morgentaler said:
Which god?

Any scripture with provably false statements can be used in a process of elimination.

Once we isolate the god who doesn't, and have the parameters which describe the state of that god we go from there.
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That makes sense. I defined what I meant by "God" at the beginning of my question, no particular one of the pantheon.

What parameters can possibly describe a God that isn't personal/faith based.
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
Inviolate said:
That makes sense. I defined what I meant by "God" at the beginning of my question, no particular one of the pantheon.
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The definitions of what the gods are changes according to the religion, so it's not irrelevant. Some are little more than "super heroes".


What parameters can possibly describe a God that isn't personal/faith based.
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If it's not faith based, then it must be based on evidence. If there's no evidence, then faith.

If there's no evidence, it's really very silly to believe something once you are capable of reasoning things out for yourself.

But how could you use an evidence based argument with people who see Jesus on a piece of grilled cheese sandwich and revere it?

If a person has been indoctrinated into a cult from birth that you must never question the cult, no matter how irrational the claim, unless they somehow break away from that view objectivity will not matter.

When the only evidence for the religion is the religion itself, the individual must be willing to question the religion before they can look at it objectively.

Simple enough exercise: ask a toddler who has never been told about gods where the universe came from.

If gods exist, why do people have to indoctrinate people? Why aren't you born already knowing god?
 
shnkrmn

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
Babs34 said:
shnkrmn said:
It's not unreasonable to want those who wish to impose their worldview on EVERYONE to cease trying to do so.
So, you handle this how? By killing and fighting a "people" who have no ill-will towards you or by intelligently addressing those who are adamant on making you minced meat?
Only one logical choice there as I see it.

What are you talking about?^^^^^^ killing and fighting? .

The problem with people of faith is they try to use their collective numbers and institutions to dictate to the rest of us. We can be regularly damned to the fiery pit but should we push back against the believers we are damned for being anti-christian and therefore somehow bigoted in some fashion.

Dictate? America really knows dictatorship, eh?
Who cares if a certain collective group claims you are hell bound? You don't believe in it anyway! :-P
Why should it even bother you? :?

'A certain collective group' is interested in more than my hellbound soul. Suppress scientific activity like stem cell research if it doesn't suit your theology. Advocate legal statutes discriminating against people because something about them doesn't jibe with your ancient chronicles. A certain collective group' wants all kinds of legislation that favors their theological worldview and has organizations and institutions, tendrils which pervade the world, fingers in every orifice, but oh, that shouldn't bother me. Yet, when atheists even clear their throats to speak, all of a sudden we are the haters. No, no, not bothered at all.
Defense against what exactly?
Apparently religious folk can organize into churches and use all sorts of militaristic, expansionist imagery (Onward, Christian Soldiers, missionaries 'fighting for unsaved souls, threaten unbelievers with the fiery flames, etc), but if atheists try to gather support for their point of view, rent a billboard, hold a rally, it's considered an attack against religion (and country, in the good ole USA).

YIKES!!! Some of you have so obviously never encountered a "normal" Christian....geeez.

I say again, individuals are of little importance when compared to the impact of the institutions which claim to speak for them. I'm sure some very nice people think James Dobson is a wonderful man. I was raised a 'normal christian' by the way.

 BTW, "fighting" for an unsaved soul doesn't entail violence.

I was remarking on militarist imagery and metaphor used by christians. I would note also that archangels tend to be very well armed. If you choose to be painfully literal, that's up to you.



There's nothing mean about pushing back against the tide of lies and myths which threatens to engulf us seculars from every side
Um, yeah...those evil and nutty Christians are America's "numero uno" concern.
Aye yi yi.

So only the concerns of 'America' are of importance here? If so, the tension between religious and secular must be considered the nation's gravest concern.

At least I can laugh at some of these Jehovah's witnesses (yet still respectively get along with them)
OR playfully mock a fellow Christian......some of you are just scary!

You mock Jehovah's Witnesses? Do they like that?

How about Jews or Buddhists? do you 'playfully mock' them too? Why don't you give us an example of your light jesting here?
 What's up with all the HATE?
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Most of your responses above could be considered 'hateful'. Certainly filled with wilful misconstrual of my quite clear statements and designed to denigrate my position through sarcasm and mockery. I am most concerned about the impact of politicized religious institutions on the American political climate. You insist on seeing that as the demonizing of perfectly nice, harmless little christians.

Have a nice day.:dunce:.
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P

PadawanBater

Guest
-What is the strongest secular (outside the bible) evidence that supports Christianity?
Been there, said that. I do so hate to repeat myself.
You didn't absorb "scientific" value case one....move along lil soldier.
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No Babs, you haven't. None of you have. The believers of this forum take the intellectually lazy route every time. Up and down the threads I see people claim "well, you can't disprove God doesn't exist..." <-- What kind of mentally challenged person holds a position like that?? Your side has never proved the existence of any god. If you think you have, you don't understand what the word "prove" means. A great quote I saw yesterday to illustrate this point; "There's plenty of evidence for the existence of God you just have to want to seee it". See, people claiming stupid shit like that don't actually care what reality is, because to them, if you just "want to see it" bad enough, it&#8217;ll happen, which isn&#8217;t science, or reality, at all.

There&#8217;s nothing that provides any more insight into the bullshit you believe in than the bible. Have fun with that circle-jerk logic fest.

-Do you acknowledge evolution is how huma.beings got here? That our ancestors were once sea dwelling animals, then the descendants of them developed the tools and abilities neccessary to walk and survive on land... gills to lungs and fins to feet/wrists/ankles, and such, then later mammals emerged, then primates, then us? Or do you think everything that currently exists now has always existed in it's present form, and all animals have existed alongside eachother (cows with veloceraptors, buffalo with sabertooth tigers, etc...) since creation?
Rhetorical question. Why don't you comprehend common English?
<<<I do not take the Bible literally, nor do I proclaim to be the genius of the universe who will rain all answers on Lil P.
P, you could spend your entire life attempting to prove "whatever it is you wish to prove".......life just keeps happening. Why not just roll with it and relax a little? No scientist in your lifetime (or ever for that matter) is going to disprove God. Why don't you get that? There will ALWAYS be something bigger than you in every sense of the word. The answers are endless. No matter how long science (as "you" see it) exists, there will ALWAYS be the next "challenge." We just don't get to have all the answers....no matter what the advancements.
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See what I mean with this bullshit... "No scientist in your lifetime is going to disprove God." <-- refer back to my response to the first reply for my take on that...

Scientific advancement and progression is the entire reason I like the shit so much. The way we make things better through science, the way we won&#8217;t ever have all the answers, which means there will always be something to pursue is what appeals to me so much. Nobody who knows anything about science is looking for the end. What a stupid accusation to make.
-What have you got to say about DNA and it's ability to tell us about the past?
Yawn Lil P....coming from the boy whose god is science, and claims science NOT responsible for finding the cure to disease.......you wish to discuss DNA?
Get back to me when you grow up. (and have expertise as a geneticist)
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Again with this same shit. Months later and you still haven&#8217;t figured out what I meant.

When I made that comment about your illness, it was in regards to how you hold some personal grudge against SCIENCE as a whole because there is no cure for whatever you suffer from (even though there are probably treatments that you enjoy because of science, ironic and hypocritical). I pointed out how that was stupid, and you can&#8217;t hold SCIENCE responsible for not finding a cure for whatever you have. That&#8217;s it.

You just dodge the question because you don&#8217;t have any idea what the hell I&#8217;m even talking about. DNA - Here, go do some studying; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mitochondrial_genetics
-Is all life related or not?
Asking questions is wonderful, repeating them to those who do not have the answers is childish. But guess what Lil p?
You have fewer answers than I.
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lmfao, I seriously doubt that claim Babs.
-Can someone be moral without believing in a god?
Repetitive, but I'll indulge......yeap, they sure can. (but not when their prime goal in life is to downplay Christians)
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I&#8217;m more moral than you and your imaginary friend.

For everyone else, here&#8217;s another great vid from Dusty, enjoy! (you seriously don&#8217;t wanna miss these, this guy has some great stuff to say!)

[youtube]6mjQL2Hh6mw[/youtube]
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
PadawanBater said:
No Babs, you haven't. None of you have. The believers of this forum take the intellectually lazy route every time. Up and down the threads I see people claim "well, you can't disprove God doesn't exist..." <-- What kind of mentally challenged person holds a position like that?? Your side has never proved the existence of any god. If you think you have, you don't understand what the word "prove" means. A great quote I saw yesterday to illustrate this point; "There's plenty of evidence for the existence of God you just have to want to seee it". See, people claiming stupid shit like that don't actually care what reality is, because to them, if you just "want to see it" bad enough, it&#8217;ll happen, which isn&#8217;t science, or reality, at all.

There&#8217;s nothing that provides any more insight into the bullshit you believe in than the bible. Have fun with that circle-jerk logic fest.


See what I mean with this bullshit... "No scientist in your lifetime is going to disprove God." <-- refer back to my response to the first reply for my take on that...

Scientific advancement and progression is the entire reason I like the shit so much. The way we make things better through science, the way we won&#8217;t ever have all the answers, which means there will always be something to pursue is what appeals to me so much. Nobody who knows anything about science is looking for the end. What a stupid accusation to make.

Again with this same shit. Months later and you still haven&#8217;t figured out what I meant.

When I made that comment about your illness, it was in regards to how you hold some personal grudge against SCIENCE as a whole because there is no cure for whatever you suffer from (even though there are probably treatments that you enjoy because of science, ironic and hypocritical). I pointed out how that was stupid, and you can&#8217;t hold SCIENCE responsible for not finding a cure for whatever you have. That&#8217;s it.

You just dodge the question because you don&#8217;t have any idea what the hell I&#8217;m even talking about. DNA - Here, go do some studying; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mitochondrial_genetics

lmfao, I seriously doubt that claim Babs.

I&#8217;m more moral than you and your imaginary friend.

For everyone else, here&#8217;s another great vid from Dusty, enjoy! (you seriously don&#8217;t wanna miss these, this guy has some great stuff to say!)

[youtube]6mjQL2Hh6mw[/youtube]
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I don't know if there is or isn't a god. I tend to believe in something greater than myself, call it what you want. This heated debate about whether god exists or not is seriously comical. A lot of you atheists are as militant in your views as some christians or muslims I know. It seems to me that both sides tend to be somewhat closed minded. One side says "There is a god and all those who don't believe are damned to an eternity of torment and anguish." The other side says "There is no god and anybody who believes in one must be a simple minded savage." I was raised into a secular family who believes in god and goes to church on occasion. They aren't fanatics or zealots by a long shot. I decided long ago that I would make up my own mind about what I believe. I think, like most of you atheists, that organized religion is full of hucksters and snake oil salesmen. I don't subscribe to one. But I feel like there is an intelligence that exists which we mere mortals cannot perceive. Not only can't we perceive it we can't even imagine it. I don't think it judges or hates. I believe that it just "IS". Call me new age or an existentialist or what the hell ever. Our arrogance as a species is constantly getting us into trouble and I try to keep my ego in check by reminding myself that god may or may not exist. We just don't know. Faith is a very abstract concept for humans. Religion is the opiate of the masses, and if it gives an individual comfort I see no problem with it. When anything, be it government or religion, tries to impose it's will through force.......it's a bad thing. Religion is a mask which some people hide behind in order to further some sort of agenda. We all have agendas.:peace:
 
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