Bagseed & MiracleGro Tomato ("the cheapsta'")

(This thread is open to anyone who would like to comment.)

I wanted to grow a plant with MiracleGro to see how it would work if someone were on a budget. I chose MG's Tomato product because it has the sanest NPK ratio (1 - 1 - 1.17. The All-Purpose product is 3 - 1 - 2. I think that's too high in N.).



Normally I use Grow More Sea Grow, and mix a veg ratio around: 1.3 - 1 - 1.7. In flower I ease into 1 - 1.5 - 1.7 by mid-flower, and end at 1 - 2 - 1.7. (I might do 1 - 3 - 2 once or twice near the end as a "booster.").

So, I'm already concerned MG's N is too low for veg. I'm a week into this. The next post will have photos and thoughts.

[1] I know "cheap" would imply a less costly soil, such as MG Organic. But, soils aren't interchangeable the way (I believe) nutes are. I think soil makes/breaks a grow. I like my mix and recommend it as a basic, necessary investment. The Pro-Mix HP could be substituted with an inexpensive peat. Add enough perlite that it has 30-40% perlite like Pro-Mix HP seems to. I would probably increase the lime 50%, assuming a budget peat won't be buffered as much. Could also add Xtreme Mykos, to be exact. But that's not important.

Interested in a mg run. Hear so many bashing it. Good luck.

11-20: Soak.
11-21: 14 hours later seed cracked and 1mm taproot showing. Planted in Jiffy Pellet.
11-24: Broke ground a little.
11-25: Cotyledons look green.
11-26: Membrane held Cotyledons shut. Cut with scalpel.
11-27: Day 2. Cotyledons open. Can see first set of fan leaves forming (they were already forming when stuck shut):
11-28: Day 3. First set of fan leaves showing:
11-29: Day 4:
11-30: Day 5:
12-2: Day 7: Second set of fan leaves forming:
This image shows the lighting. This lighting (including mounting ideas) is described here. I am running one warm, one cool. The seedling leans toward the cool. (As mentioned in that article, a 1:3 ratio of warm:cool is preferred in veg. I just don't need that much light now.).
12-4: Day 9: Second set of fan leaves showing:

My thoughts so far....

1. It seems like this sprouted and grew slower than I'm accustomed.

It could be the seed genetics. But, I think the heavy/wet Jiffy pellet had something to do with it. I won't use them again. I like Rapid Rooters. (Turn them upside down and poke a seed-sized hole. Plant directly in soil. No propagation trays.).

2. Around Day-5 I thought the color looked a little paler than I'm accustomed.

As mentioned in the first post, I usually mix fertilizers for NPK ratio 1.3-1-1.7. (Using AK Fish Emulsion I vary it between 1-1-1.7 and 1.5-1-1.7.). I was committed to running MG Tomato without any supplements.

But, by today, it really looks like it needs more N. I don't think I can recommend MG Tomato by itself.

If it doesn't improve by the next feeding, I believe I will mix equal parts MG All Purpose (ratio 3-1-2) with Tomato and get NPK ratio 1.62-1-1.42. That looks better to me. And, I don't think it breaks the budget to spend another $7 on more nutrients in order to get a better ratio. At least, not if Tomato by itself is this N deficient.

Personally, I would use AK Fish to raise N a little. But, it's stinky. Many people may not be able to handle it. Bat guano or blood meal would be better too. But, since this is an attempt to be cheap, MG All Purpose looks like the solution.

Possibly I should increase Tomato's strength. I'm surprised I'm doing full strength this early. I'm afraid to go stronger. But, maybe that's worth a try before blending two products for a custom ratio.

12-6: Day 11:

Pale green
It's still pale green compared to the lush, deep green I'm accustomed to. I'm going to feed it stronger Tomato tonight or tomorrow morning. If it continues to appear hungry for N I'll begin mixing All Purpose and Tomato (1:1) to get the higher N ratio mentioned in the previous post.

If I were growing for myself, I would mix. But, since the goal was to do Tomato (cheap) all the way to the end, I'd like to hit it once with stronger Tomato just to rule out that I'm not underfeeding. I'm surprised that I'm feeding so strong (compared to the label) so early. That makes me wonder if it just needs more. Worst case: I'll burn it and that could be useful information (for any who may try this to know what too much is.).

Buckled leaves
The leaves are a little buckled/crinkled. This could be relative humidity (20-25%). I put a wet towel in the tent last night and it seemed to look better this morning, leaves reaching for the light, etc.

pH Note: I should have mentioned in the first post: I do not pH my nutrient mix. I have found with my soil and not using "calmag" products (because I mix tap and RO water), I don't need to pH. That's another "cheap" attribute of this grow.

Cool grow

12-7: Day 12

Lights
I added a third light today. Now I'm running two cool Cree A19 9.5w, and one warm. That's close to the ideal spectrum (3:1 or 4:1). Maybe I should have done this from the start for better spectrum. I could have kept the lights at a distance if it was too intense. (I like to do things with less, so it seemed intuitive to only use the watts I needed.).

Condition
The leaf margins seem greener today:
I expected to feed again by now. But, the soil isn't dry enough. I'm thinking I fed the last time or two when it was too wet. I was motivated to get more nutrients to the plant because it didn't seem green enough. Since soil's pH rises as it dries, and N is available at higher pH, now I think I contributed to the problem.

Next feed
I'm going let it become exceptionally dry before feeding. But, I'm afraid that's going to coincide with lights out (I like doing it earlier in the "on" cycle). I intend to feed 3.5g/gal Tomato. (That's a little less than a tsp/gal.). It produces 530ppm.

I've been a little perplexed by the strength because the box recommends 1/2 tsp (which is about 1.8g without tamping/packing it down.). Typically you feed less than labeled recommendations. Feeding almost twice that makes me think I'm going to do something wrong. But, the PPMs aren't crazy high. If I burn her, at least I'll establish what is too much.

I just wanted to get this photo posted, the last before the heavy feeding.

My first grow was in MG bag soil and MG all purpose fert with ginormous CFLs. It was done in 8 weeks. I believe it was a Dinafem Road Runner auto and it produced good dank and a really good yield too. I think you will do well bro.

I ran that MG that comes in a plastic bucket and is stored in little white bags inside the bucket. It turned the water blue and raised havoc with the ph color test kit.

Despite all this, this fertilizer grew good bud with nice crystal.

I used it until the the expiry date and tossed what was left. Use sparingly.

GrowUrOwnDank said:

My first grow was in MG bag soil and MG all purpose fert with ginormous CFLs.

Click to expand...

That made me think: Maybe MG's amount to use appears low to me because MG assumes people will use it with its soil (which contain nutrients). That would make sense.

az2000 said:

That made me think: Maybe MG's amount to use appears low to me because MG assumes people will use it with its soil (which contain nutrients). That would make sense.

Click to expand...

Looking back. I was a total noob and fed the shit out of that thing. That bitch got so thick and bushy I had to defoliate like 3 times. I was trimming away leaf right up to harvest lol, no shit. I'll be honest. To this day I haven't had a better grow and I've done the same seeds several times. I dunno. I think beginners luck played a big part. MG stuff has a bad rep but is legit stuff. Maybe not the best but they have skids of that stuff at all the box stores for a reason.

az2000 said:

That made me think: Maybe MG's amount to use appears low to me because MG assumes people will use it with its soil (which contain nutrients). That would make sense.

Click to expand...

The $5.00 bucket of MG that I did had flowers on it. The stuff I had melted after the bag was opened while at room temperature. So knowing this I scaled it with gram scales while it was fresh and figured it by the gram.

Certain fertilizers should be kept in a cool dark place.

az2000 said:

I wanted to grow a plant with MiracleGro to see how it would work if someone were on a budget I chose MG's Tomato product because it has the sanest NPK ratio (1 - 1 - 1.17. The All-Purpose product is 3 - 1 - 2. I think that's too high in N.).

Click to expand...

Funny, I've always had really good results with the 3-1-2 ratio for veg.; that's what DG Foliage Pro has if I recall correctly. My favorite ratio though would have to be the 3-1-5 from H&G Soil AB, vigorous growth and beautiful dark green foliage.

Interesting experiment -- I know of a few members here, old timers mostly, who swear by miracle grow products. Me personally, I've never really understood the fuss about the stuff.

Dec. 8 (Day 13)
Fourth feeding. I fed 3.0g/gal. That's about 3/4 tsp. That was about 580ppm (430ppm plus 150ppm from the water). The runoff was 915ppm. It's too early for runoff ppm to mean anything. I'll be more interested in early flower when salt has accumulated in the soil.

This is a photo of the plant before feeding (I thought I should take another picture since 20 hours elapsed since the last photo):


Dec. 9 (Day 14)
This is the plant 25 hours after feeding:


It seems to be growing well. I think I should have fed stronger. If I did it again, I would increase all the feedings by 20%. Or, at least the previous feeding (third feeding) could have been stronger.

I still think it would benefit from more N. It seems a little pastel compared to what I'm accustomed to with Grow More Sea Grow. It seems to take longer for the older leaves to reach a deep green. (I do think didn't wait for the soil to dry enough the prior feedings. I think that contributed to it being a little hungry for N.).

But, it's not bad. If it were me, I would add 3-4ml/gal AK Fish Emulsion. That would add 50-60ppm N (for an NPK ratio of 1.25-1-1.16).

As mentioned previously, I don't pH my nutrient mix. I will measure the pH of this mix next time, just for informational purposes. (I haven't used my pens in over a year. I'm preparing them for use by soaking in cleaner, then KCl solution to rehydrate, and then will calibrate.).

I'm going to try a full tsp (3.6g/gal) next time.

all is good bro doing great cant wait to see if finished keep it going my fav of type to grow ^.^

also very detailed notes very pro like journal

Dec. 10 (Day 15)
It's been 51 hours since feeding:


I still think it looks lime'y green to me. I'm accustomed to a deeper, darker green. But, it seems to be doing well. I think that square blotch on one of the leaves is from about Day 7. I hit the leaf when feeding. A drop remained. I dabbed it with my finger, but I think a a bit of it remained. I've seen small things like that enlarge as the leaf expands. (A bug nibbled on some new growth once. When the leaf enlarged it looked like an animal had been munching on it.).

A profile picture shows the plant leaning to the cool white LED:


I think it will need feeding again tomorrow. 2-1/2 to 3 days since the last one.

Dec. 11 (Day 16)
Fifth feeding: 1tsp (3.6g) per gal for about 485ppm (150ppm water, 335ppm nutes). Runoff 865ppm. This was 70 hours after the last feeding.

Note about my PPM: My ppm pen was reading about 10% too high. So, the runoff ppm is about the same as the last time. Also, when I have stated my mix PPMs I have been idealizing a theoretical PPM based upon calculations of what the weighed amount of fertilizer should produce, and what I measured. I should have been clearer about this in the previous posts. The amounts I fed are accurate (the volume in tsp, or weight in gram). But, I believe the actual ppm was considerably lower, especially since my pen was reading 10%.

I water/feed for about 20-30% runoff to reduce the risk of salt buildup in the soil. Especially this feed and the last one. I don't do a lot of volume runoff when it's a seedling. Only when I start using stronger nutrients.

Dec. 12 (Day 17)
These are photos 24 hours after feeding:

I added a fourth cool white. This is 3:1 cool:warm. All 9.5w Cree A19 bulbs (not the plastic 4Flow model). Total 38 watts.


This is more light than it needs right now. With these lights, it only needs about 20w/sq ft, especially in veg.

Looking forward:

It's drinking quickly now. I expect to feed again tomorrow (48-60 hours after yesterday's feed #5).

Since it seems to require watering every 2.5 days (which is what I normally do with a full-size container when a plant has grown into it) I think it's about ready for transplant. I'll probably transplant the day after tomorrow. (I like to let a plant get pretty big before transplanting. The roots help hold the soil together, minimizing damage/shock. I also like to do it when it's halfway between watered and dry.).

I still think this fertilizer is fairly weak, especially compared to the labeled recommendation (1/2 tsp/gal). 1tsp (3.6g) per gallon seems like a good amount to feed in full veg.

If I did this again, I would increase the strength of the first feeding by 20%, and feedings #2 & 3 by 30 and 50%, respectively.

I may try 1-1/4 tsp (4.5g) tomorrow. But, it seems to be doing well at 1 tsp/gal.

Dec. 13 (day 18 )
Sixth feeding: 1tsp (3.6g) per gal, 480ppm (150ppm water, 335ppm nutes). Runoff 700ppm. This was 50 hours after the last feeding. I did a lot of runoff last feeding. That's probably why the ppms dropped.

The pH of my nutrient mix is 6.5-6.6 (without adjusting pH).

I turned off the fourth light later Day 17. But, I'll probably turn it back on tomorrow because the plant is getting larger.

Dec. 14 (Day 19)
This is the plant 21 hours after feeding:


In a few minutes l will transplant into a 2gal container (Pennington #2, 1.61 gal actual).

I usually transplant to 1gal (#1, 0.58 gal actual) and then 3gal (#3, 2.32 gal actual). I don't use #2 containers very often. Since I'm in a 4' tall tent, and will probably switch the lighting to 12/12 sooner than I normally would (because this is an experiment with the nutrient, and want to move on experimenting with something else), transplanting to #1 and then #2 seemed excessive. I would probably transplant again in a week. Especially considering how the plant is thriving. If it was a slow grower, I might do #1 instead.

Note about PPMs:
As mentioned on Day 16: The PPMs for feedings 1-4 were overstated. The actual, measured ppms were:


I would increase those by 20-30% if I did it again.

Feedings 5-6 have been the actual, measured ppm. I think these 1tsp (3.6g) feedgins could be 20% stronger too.

Dec. 14 (day 19) continued....
I transplanted into a 2gal container. I pre-wet the soil with water a day or two before transplanting. After completing the transplant I drenched the new (already wet) soil with half-strength nutrients (1.8g/gal, 150ppm + 150ppm water = 300ppm measured). Probably 30% runoff.

I usually drench with 1/2 strength bloom nutrients (higher P & K). But, because this grow is intended to use one product, I didn't.


Dec. 15 (day 20)

This is the plant 26 hours after transplanting:


I turned the fourth light back on last night (but this photo is 12 hours later). This is 3 cool, 1 warm. Total 36 watts.


It may be 2-3 days until it needs water again (before the plant grows into the container and drinks what's there). I may do 1.2 tsp/gal (4.32g). I'd like to find what burns just to know how much that is.

BTW: I should mention I use this 20g jewelry scale (Horizon Pro-20B) to measure small quantities. It costs about $20 and can be found on eBay (seller: AnyVolume). I don't think it's critical to be that accurate.

Dec. 18 (Day 23)
It's taking awhile for the soil to dry because I potted up to a slightly too-large container. It's hard to know when to water now because the container still feels a little heavy. But, the top 1" is pretty dry. So, I am feeding full-strength (1tsp/gal, 3.6g/gal, 510ppm measured, which is 360ppm + 150ppm from the water) about 3-1/2 days after transplanting.

It had another 12-14 hours based upon the weight of the container. But, the top of the soil was getting too dry. I drizzled a little into the soil to let the upper soil saturate. I'll wait 2-3 hours and pour the rest in.

This is the plant before watering:

Something to keep in mind about my soil: when peat dries too much, it repels water (hydrophobic). You have to go slow or the water will "bead" and run through. I went very slow drizzling water around the surface. (Spraying would work better.).

I'll probably switch to 12/12 lighting (flower) in a couple weeks. It's not my goal to veg long, just to demonstrate how MG - Tomato works. I mentioned in the first post that I use normally feed Grow More - Sea Grow. My schedule is here.

Subbed to see how this turns out! Thanks for all of the good info