Beneficial Insects - What, How Do You Use Them

Hello Everyone,

I know a lot of folks use beneficial insects. Many use ladybugs, some use mites as well. I've done related work in that field however not related to cannabis, or plants for that matter. I'd like to start doing some basic research on how to more effectively use beneficial insects for indoor cannabis cultivation. Since I don't currently use them myself, and even if I started immediately it still wouldn't help my cause. I'd like to reach out ask for first hand experiences using them.


If you don't mind, explain how you use beneficial insects, lady bugs, mites, etc. How do you employ them? Do you use them in growth stage only, flower only - both? What are your experiences with effectiveness, sustainability? How septic do they make the enviroment (compared to how well they main it)? What do you feel they could do better, or excel at, etc?

Any and all experiences are appreciated, recognized and surely will help!


Bud

this isnt gonna be very helpful but i have used lady bugs in the past and for me they just seemed to escape the area so i would say u could use them in all stages just make sure u have them sealed in

Love the Lady Bugs and the praying mantis, let them go when lights are off. make sure you put out little caps full of water. they will stay.

Thank you both. These are the user experiences I am looking for.

I have read one of the most discouraging things is the predatory insects leaving the job-site.


Hem... Do you speak of basic chinese mantids? I've wondered their effectiveness given their fast growth rate. I would hate to be a mite with a nymph praying mantis around though.

Curious to hear your experiences. (As well as more folks.) Once again I'm looking to fetch upon old data to try and bring to light more effective ways to utilize exsisting/new beneficial insects.

Bud

I use ladybugs and in my soil - I like to use worms. I use both of these in both stages of my grow. Works out really well but these are not substitutes to mastering the basics; quality water, ideal temp, great nutrients, quality equipment to diagnose if there is a problem.

I raise mantids and you really don't want to use them against mites. Mantids can/will eat adult mites for around the first four days of their life until they molt for the first time. After this mites are just too small. I would not recommend ladybugs even though they are easy to come by. Every green house I know that uses beneficial insects for mite control uses either predatory mites or mite destroyers.


The problem with lady bugs is that they do not eat most of the eggs and will often even skip over smaller mites. Lady bug larvae work great against mites but adults will never completely get rid of a population (it is damn near impossible to get lady bugs to breed indoors - they generally only breed seasonally and require a migration). Lady bugs are great for aphids and other larger bugs but aphids are magnitudes larger than a spider mite and eggs are much smaller than the mites themselves. Both predatory mites and mite destroyers will readily breed indoors as long as you control the heat and humidity. Unfortunately most benefitials will not completely get rid of a problem - they will get it low and then starve before completing the job.

Mite destroyer (best natural predator of mites)

Mite destroyer on a leaf (they are tiny!)

Mite destroyer compared to eggs (eggs are TINY!) The large clear one is an aphid egg, the tiny tiny yellow one is around the size of a mite egg.

Gastanker thanks for the great info...

any advise for white flies?

Thanks for the info Gas.

What you have shared however is a lady bug. Just a different species from the forementioned one you referred to. Regarding the mantids. I beleive you are restating that their effectiveness is limited to their nymph stages?

This is the type of work I'd like to do. I'd like in the future not to limit ourselves to single organisms/species as beneficial aids.

They are the same? Lady bug refers to a large variety of beetles in the Coccinellidae family but generally in the US refers to Coccinella magnifica. Mite destroyers are Stethorus punctipes. Is the very first picture a different Coccinella? It's labeled as S punctipes but does look a bit different than the rest I have seen - although I have seen red hues in person on the beetles.

Mantids do not vary stages of life - "nymph" would just be referring to a small mantid. After hatching they will eat mites for about 4 days - at this point they molt (grow larger and shed their skin) at which point they are too large to rely and hunt on spider mites. I feed hatchling mantids fruit flies which are much much larger than mites.

I've never dealt with white flies but I hear you can use pirate bugs.

Gastanker said:

They are the same? Lady bug refers to a large variety of beetles in the Coccinellidae family but generally in the US refers to Coccinella magnifica. Mite destroyers are Stethorus punctipes. Is the very first picture a different Coccinella? It's labeled as S punctipes but does look a bit different than the rest I have seen - although I have seen red hues in person on the beetles.

Mantids do not vary stages of life - "nymph" would just be referring to a small mantid. After hatching they will eat mites for about 4 days - at this point they molt (grow larger and shed their skin) at which point they are too large to rely and hunt on spider mites. I feed hatchling mantids fruit flies which are much much larger than mites.

I've never dealt with white flies but I hear you can use pirate bugs.

Click to expand...

Yes Gastanker, they are the same.

Your description leaves out much of the biological classification method. Coccinellidae is a family name referring to all the "ladybugs" of the world. Not a variety or what the US refers to them as. After that, the genus is listed followed by the species.

Just because an organism doesn't share the same genus and species name, and just like in this case - family name... doesn't mean they aren't the near identical biologically. And for a common name sake, jeeze. The most recent publication I saw listed Stethorus as a sub-family within the entire Coccinellidae collection. Even if you don't want to call it a "ladybug" it's still a Coccinellidae.

You have to also understand this stuff changes everyday, and the few people who do this work on all the worlds species of mammals, inverts, reptiles, fish - they fight to the death about "whats what". Although DNA is helping, others still can argue the source of tested specimen. I've seen it happen. Fun fact. Did you know scorpions are classified in over a dozen families, a hundred genera and thousands of species? Spiders are just as bad.

You have to be joking about your statment about Mantids not going through stages of life. Please do yourself a favor and google "Mantid Life Cycle".


I'll ask kindly that other share their, and only their experiences from here forward. (As well as constructive banter and woo-hoo's.) As you can see this is what I did. The story telling doesn't go far with me.

I think i started a forum on this same subject
I used Predatore Nematodes to rid my Fungus gnat problem 1 dose knocked those bitches out no problem
http://beneficialinsects101.com/
http://www.plant-shed.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=44&pg=1

Hotsause said:

I think i started a forum on this same subject
I used Predatore Nematodes to rid my Fungus gnat problem 1 dose knocked those bitches out no problem
http://beneficialinsects101.com/
http://www.plant-shed.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=44&pg=1

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Thanks Hot! I will check those out!!

Back in the day I knew a few people who used those to control springtails in peat.

Buddy232 said:

Yes Gastanker, they are the same.

Your description leaves out much of the biological classification method. Coccinellidae is a family name referring to all the "ladybugs" of the world. Not a variety or what the US refers to them as. After that, the genus is listed followed by the species.

Just because an organism doesn't share the same genus and species name, and just like in this case - family name... doesn't mean they aren't the near identical biologically. And for a common name sake, jeeze. The most recent publication I saw listed Stethorus as a sub-family within the entire Coccinellidae collection. Even if you don't want to call it a "ladybug" it's still a Coccinellidae.

You have to also understand this stuff changes everyday, and the few people who do this work on all the worlds species of mammals, inverts, reptiles, fish - they fight to the death about "whats what". Although DNA is helping, others still can argue the source of tested specimen. I've seen it happen. Fun fact. Did you know scorpions are classified in over a dozen families, a hundred genera and thousands of species? Spiders are just as bad.

You have to be joking about your statment about Mantids not going through stages of life. Please do yourself a favor and google "Mantid Life Cycle".


I'll ask kindly that other share their, and only their experiences from here forward. (As well as constructive banter and woo-hoo's.) As you can see this is what I did. The story telling doesn't go far with me.

Click to expand...

You're nuts dude. I'm a bio major - I understand classification. If two species happen to be in the same family it does NOT mean they are the exact same...To say all members of a family are the same due to sharing a common name is absolutely retarded - why are you trying to be argumentative. Simple scale make a MASSIVE difference in the role an animal plays. If you order "ladybugs" what do you receive? Mite destroyers? No... you receive one of just a few of what can be called "ladybug". Might brush up on standard common name practices...

Have you ever hatched out mantids? There is no pupil stage. The nymph stage is simply a smaller version of the adult - incomplete metamorphosis. Don't spew incorrect information just to try and sound "smart".

[video=youtube;urk-_Uh2vbg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urk-_Uh2vbg[/video]

But by all means try and use mantids to control spider mites.

/e before you call up technicalities I understand that juvenile mantids do not have wings while adults do - for what we are talking about this really doesn't matter.

Even though every single one of my horticulture and greenhouse management classes stated that "lady bugs" will not control spider mites I tried them regardless - guess what...they didn't work. Not too big of a surprise... Funny considering the same college 300 level classes stated that "mite destroyers" will help against spider mites... Yup, both can technically be refereed to the common name "ladybug", but they are different species that fill very different niches. When 99% of people refer to "lady bug" as one of ten very very similar looking and to scale beetles, then no, "Lady bug" is not the common name for every Coccinellidae in the world. Keep in mind common name = layman, the layman doesn't refer to a mite destroyer as a "ladybug".

When people on this forum refer to "ladybug" as a pest deterrent they are talking about one of these:

Or Or ... Even maybe one of these (although I have never seen them or sale):


Not:

I've had the best luck releasing them outside and letting them work before the bugs get indoors.

They have more variety to eat and reproduce, so you don't have to keep introducing them. Indoors, they seem to just fly into the lights, or escape the tent.

Nothing is 100% with predator insects, but my levels are very low and I still have tons of ladybugs and mantises (?) from being released into my garden 3 years ago. Find them in the house all the time.

Wet

Gastanker,

I really hope you are fibbing about being a biology major and the teachings from supposive "300 level" classes. Simply because you post a lot of pictures and try to reassure yourself with long out explainations, doesn't make you correct or knowledgeable. (Even if you really do goto school for any field of biology... you didn't clarify that.)

I'm sorry to say, but YOUR the one who is mistaking common names for latin/classified names. While I may or may not have stated, I, nor the entire scientific world doesn't always agree with how animals get classified. But until you prove something wrong - that's how it is. The follow provides what I stated was fact and that YOUR posts are fallacies to "sound smart". Please, can you provide a BS excuse as to why the follow is incorrect?

The Stethorini are unique among the Coccinellidae in specializing on mites (principally Tetranychidae) as prey. Consisting of 90 species in two genera, Stethorus and Parasthethorus, the tribe is practically cosmopolitan. The systematics and taxonomy of this group is challenging with many cryptic species, and molecular diagnostic tools are sorely needed. (Biddinger, Weber, Hull 2009)

You said your self the term "lady bug" generally refers to Coccinellidae. Just like a Scarab could be one of thousands of Scarabaeidae on earth. Look at the picture on my avatar. You'd be hard pressed to call it anything but a scorpion as 10 years that was hand collected from latin america for a select few researchers. Go through a list of all the species from that region (as many as you can access)... it would still take you forever. Chance are it would be one of my pictures anyways. Haha.

I hate wikipedia, but I'm going to use it anyways because I've about had it with you.

As in related insect groups, mantises go through three stages of metamorphosis: egg, nymph, and adult (mantises are among the hemimetabolic insects). Hemimetabolism or hemimetaboly, also called incomplete metamorphosis, is a term used to describe the mode of development of certain insects that includes three distinct stages: the egg, nymph, and the adult stage, or imago. These groups go through gradual changes; there is no pupal stage. The nymph often somewhat resembles the adult stage but lacks wings and functional reproductive organs.


Once again. I don't need lessons in this. Even if you are a student like you claim... get into a real lab for a while and then maybe consider speaking your mind. And if you do, be opinionated... DON'T try to discuss or debate facts you don't know.

Buddy232 said:

Please read this post.... and then some of your books.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/499522-beneficial-insects-what-how-do-2.html

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You have got to be kidding me... Have you lost the point of the entire post? We are talking about controlling insect populations with mail order bugs. I agreed with you before, yes there is a nymph stage - the nymph stage is simply a smaller version of the adult with no wings, unlike for instance the nymph stage of a beetle that doesn't resemble the beetle and functions very differently - big difference between incomplete metamorphosis and complete metamorphosis. You pointing out there is a nymph stage has no bearing on whether small mantids will eat spider mites. Why are you encouraging people to order mantids to control spider mites when they will not work...

I assume you initially brought up the nymph stage as you were claiming it to be significantly different/smaller than the adult - if you did not mean this then I apologizing for jumping to that conclusion...but then why did you mention it to begin with? An inch long mantid can be a nymph and yet it is still too large to eat spider mites/eggs - this is has always been my point, just because it is a nymph doesn't mean it is locked into a smaller different form than the adult like for instance a lady bug nymph. And before you jump on me about this I am talking about the mantid species you can order for pest control - not every single species in existence (I know how you like to take liberties and I am aware that there are some very very small mantid species).

And now you are trying to convince a bunch of forum people that if they order "lady bugs" online they will receive the same beetles as if you order "mite destroyers" online... That is NOT TRUE. IT IS A LIE. If you order "mite destroyers" you get something very different than if you order "lady bugs". You are arguing about scientific concepts over these people's heads in order to confuse them? Why?

You are trying to argue that the larger "lady bugs" fill the exact same niches as the smaller "lady bugs"? Really? Go read a book...on any insect. Hell you could even read a book about just one species of ant and they will cover how the extreme size difference of the members greatly defines their roles.

Yes, technically if you want to you can call thousands of beetles ladybugs. Hell if you wanted to you could go around correcting everyone when they use the word "bug", I rarely rarely ever see anyone point to a true bug when they say that word... Oh wait, that isn't helpful. Get over yourself man - this forum is to help the public and by telling people "lady bugs" will get rid of their indoor spider mite problem isn't helping anyone. Hell go to your local horticulture/greenhouse/environmental control club, or college class, or professor and just ask them - I have...

In texas this is a daddy long legs:



Its true common name is harvestman

In Louisiana these are referred to as daddy long legs:



True common name is a crane fly

In California I hear these being referred to as daddy long legs



Common name is daddy long legs.

The people using the "incorrect" common name are not incorrect...it's a common name - it means near nothing except to convey to the layman what something is, using the easiest generally accepted term. In some books, but not all, all three are given multiple common names with one being daddy long legs... Common names are not scientific... That is why they are called "common name" and not "scientific name". To argue common names is absolutely ridiculous and hot at all helpful. And just FYI - when people do use the scientific name like I used on my second post, then you cannot claim different species, stated by their sceintific names, are the same organism due to sharing a common name. That would be like saying the crane fly (Tipulidae family) and the harvest man (Opiliones order) are technically the same due to sharing the same common name "daddy long legs".

Buddy232 said:

Yes Gastanker, they are the same.

Click to expand...

Your claim that Coccinella magnifica and Stethorus punctipes are the same due to both being "lady bugs" is absolutely wrong.

Here on RIU This is a lady bug:



Welcome to the forum, glad I could key you into our commonly used common names.

In the reptile world we have red and yellow ackies - that is the industry common name but there is technically no such thing as a red or yellow ackie - official common name is spiney-tailed monitor. Guess what, if everyone in the industry uses that term it's the accepted common name. We are on a pot forum, not an entomology forum...

Damn!

*I* thought it was the 'Entertainment' Forum.

Wet

Wetdog said:

Damn!

*I* thought it was the 'Entertainment' Forum.

Wet

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hehe. Am I out of it? I'm pretty sure on this forum when people say "lady bug" they mean the typical large red ones with black dots that you can buy from garden stores/order online. Right? I hope I'm not the crazy one.

I can't imagine someone saying "If I buy some lady bugs will they kill aphids." And thinking "Nope, Scymnus brullei is too tiny to eat aphids." (this is a for instance, technically that species can eat aphid eggs)

Well, I can't comment on your sanity, but yeah, sounds like a Ladybug to me. LOL

Quick story: I was recovering from surgery, in bed, and a ladybug landed on my chest. My wife goes, "oh, that's good luck". I'm going, "how neat".

Then the little fucker bit the shit out of me! LOL, I didn't know they bit, but sure do now.

Wet