Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the US

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
yep, let's give everyone a free* education so that black people, hispanic people, and women can STILL earn less than white men.



that'll fix the institutional sexism and racism that the backbone of the democratic party is affected by.
So because it doesn't help minorites enough, it's a bad idea?

What are you smoking? I'm not sure I want any.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
So because it doesn't help minorites enough, it's a bad idea?

What are you smoking? I'm not sure I want any.
i don't think that the women and people of color who represent the backbone of the democratic party are asking for anyone to put them in an institutionally unfair situation one tax bracket level upwards.

they want to end the institutional disparities first and foremost.

a distinction completely lost on the overwhelmingly white male bernie supporters.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
We've hashed this out on several occasions. I think it had a lot to do with a lack of name recognition at the time of the primaries, poor messaging on Bernie's part (he failed to adequately connect the dots between his proposed economic reforms and their effect on people's lives) and plenty of obstruction by the DNC, in no particular order.
Ty, you make a claim of "Sanders the inclusive candidate" and then create excuses why he didn't win. In another disagreement that we've had regarding whether or not the country is in fact progressive -- as shown in opinion polls -- I point to actual votes in most states that definitely gave the nod to a right wing candidate with policies that are opposite of what the opinion poll said. Again, you toss in "corruption", "corporate money" and so forth.

Simpler reasons for these apparent conflicts with your thesis is that the voters in many if not most states vote for right wing candidates because those were the people they wanted in office. Also, Sander lost the primary in the south because those voters -- mostly black voters -- did not see Sanders as the most inclusive candidate. Neither you or @Padawanbater2 are progressives. You are liberal left as opposed to progressive, leaning left. I see the liberal left as losers in political races.

Not saying the cause is lost, just saying that changing people's minds takes time. Trump is giving progressives who lean left a chance to change the direction this country is heading. I don't want the opportunity to be lost just because one issue doesn't go the way you and Paddy want.

I support liberal left agenda and will campaign for it as well as support candidates who align with it in the primary. The general election can be a different story. maybe.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
they want to end the institutional disparities first and foremost.
We suggest accomplishing that through economic reforms that benefit the poor and middle-class. How do you suggest doing that? By "breaking down the barriers!"?

What actual solutions do you have to solve that problem? You've heard our plan, what's your plan? Let's hear it
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
We suggest accomplishing that through economic reforms that benefit the poor and middle-class.
so far, you've named free* college. doesn't matter what education level you attain, black people, hispanic people, and women still earn less than white men no matter the level of educational attainment.

got anything else?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
so far, you've named free* college. doesn't matter what education level you attain, black people, hispanic people, and women still earn less than white men no matter the level of educational attainment.

got anything else?
Increasing the minimum wage to a living wage and indexing it to inflation. Single payer healthcare. Paid maternity leave. Paid vacation time. Tax reform. Campaign finance reform. Financial reform to name a handful. All of which would help poor and middle-class people of all colors and genders

What do you have?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Ty, you make a claim of "Sanders the inclusive candidate" and then create excuses why he didn't win. In another disagreement that we've had regarding whether or not the country is in fact progressive -- as shown in opinion polls -- I point to actual votes in most states that definitely gave the nod to a right wing candidate with policies that are opposite of what the opinion poll said. Again, you toss in "corruption", "corporate money" and so forth.

Simpler reasons for these apparent conflicts with your thesis is that the voters in many if not most states vote for right wing candidates because those were the people they wanted in office. Also, Sander lost the primary in the south because those voters -- mostly black voters -- did not see Sanders as the most inclusive candidate. Neither you or @Padawanbater2 are progressives. You are liberal left as opposed to progressive, leaning left. I see the liberal left as losers in political races.

Not saying the cause is lost, just saying that changing people's minds takes time. Trump is giving progressives who lean left a chance to change the direction this country is heading. I don't want the opportunity to be lost just because one issue doesn't go the way you and Paddy want.

I support liberal left agenda and will campaign for it as well as support candidates who align with it in the primary. The general election can be a different story. maybe.
I didn't 'create excuses', I made an analysis.

I think the country is pretty much done with conservatives after the Chump and Company.

On the issues, people on both sides of America's political spectrum agree with me. Label me however you want.

Seems like you and I are on the same side. So what's your issue?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Increasing the minimum wage to a living wage and indexing it to inflation. Single payer healthcare. Paid maternity leave. Paid vacation time. Tax reform. Campaign finance reform. Financial reform to name a handful. All of which would help poor and middle-class people of all colors and genders

What do you have?
He's got mocking because he can't be bothered with policy discussions.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
so far, you've named free* college. doesn't matter what education level you attain, black people, hispanic people, and women still earn less than white men no matter the level of educational attainment.

got anything else?
Because it's not enough, you're against it?

WEAK SAUCE.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I didn't 'create excuses', I made an analysis.

I think the country is pretty much done with conservatives after the Chump and Company.

On the issues, people on both sides of America's political spectrum agree with me. Label me however you want.

Seems like you and I are on the same side. So what's your issue?
I know "that's what you think". I'm saying you are wrong. Most states in this country vote for right wing candidates. Maybe that's changing. It's not going to go all liberal at once. That's what I think.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I know "that's what you think". I'm saying you are wrong. Most states in this country vote for right wing candidates. Maybe that's changing. It's not going to go all liberal at once. That's what I think.
We really aren't far apart at all.

I see evidence of the country being a lot less right wing than it was just last fall. That evidence includes the races to replace the US Reps appointed to the cabinet; both Democratic candidates came far closer to victory than anyone anticipated given the district's previous voting history.

I'm working hard to avoid confirmation bias and to get objective information that's indicative of the actual state of the electorate. It's harder than it might seem.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
We really aren't far apart at all.

I see evidence of the country being a lot less right wing than it was just last fall. That evidence includes the races to replace the US Reps appointed to the cabinet; both Democratic candidates came far closer to victory than anyone anticipated given the district's previous voting history.

I'm working hard to avoid confirmation bias and to get objective information that's indicative of the actual state of the electorate. It's harder than it might seem.
Then, let Perez do his job. He's not the bad boy "establishment" you make him out to be. I'm watching closely but haven't seen the sell-out you make it out to be.

He's reaching out to Sanders and his base. Go ahead and be skeptical but at least hold off on deciding until a decision needs to be made. That's what I'm doing.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Then, let Perez do his job. He's not the bad boy "establishment" you make him out to be. I'm watching closely but haven't seen the sell-out you make it out to be.

He's reaching out to Sanders and his base. Go ahead and be skeptical but at least hold off on deciding until a decision needs to be made. That's what I'm doing.
What would change your opinion about Perez?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Then, let Perez do his job. He's not the bad boy "establishment" you make him out to be. I'm watching closely but haven't seen the sell-out you make it out to be.

He's reaching out to Sanders and his base. Go ahead and be skeptical but at least hold off on deciding until a decision needs to be made. That's what I'm doing.
I fear that his job is to herd the wayward into the Establishment Democratic camp.

I hope you're right and to the extent he pushes policies I agree with, I'll support him.

Because that's what this is boiling down to fit me; issues. IDGAF if the Chump himself pushes an idea I agree with; I just want to see progress on the issues I believe in.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I know "that's what you think". I'm saying you are wrong. Most states in this country vote for right wing candidates. Maybe that's changing. It's not going to go all liberal at once. That's what I think.
Why do most voters support single payer healthcare, including 46% of Republicans? Why do most voters support raising the minimum wage to a living wage? Universal college? Paid maternity leave and paid time off? All of these are progressive positions.

You're claiming that since Republicans have done better than Democrats politically, especially since Obama has been president (more than 1,000 seats lost to Republicans across the country), that's evidence that the country is more conservative.

So tell me how you know that? How do you know voters didn't just vote out the Democrats in office for the Republican because they felt like the Democratic representative they elected didn't actually represent them or their interests? What makes you attribute the loss of Democratic seats across the country to a more conservative leaning public when the polls show that most Americans support progressive policies?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Why do most voters support single payer healthcare, including 46% of Republicans? Why do most voters support raising the minimum wage to a living wage? Universal college? Paid maternity leave and paid time off? All of these are progressive positions.

You're claiming that since Republicans have done better than Democrats politically, especially since Obama has been president (more than 1,000 seats lost to Republicans across the country), that's evidence that the country is more conservative.

So tell me how you know that? How do you know voters didn't just vote out the Democrats in office for the Republican because they felt like the Democratic representative they elected didn't actually represent them or their interests? What makes you attribute the loss of Democratic seats across the country to a more conservative leaning public when the polls show that most Americans support progressive policies?
My theory is that NEITHER party represents the desires of the majority of the people, and we're seeing a whipsaw effect based on The very frustration with the current party in power and their failure to be responsive to our needs.

This is why I think a left wing movement would be effective. At the very least it would show the establishment that they can't ignore the needs of the left and still be an effective alternative to the Republican Party.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
My theory is that NEITHER party represents the desires of the majority of the people, and we're seeing a whipsaw effect based on The very frustration with the current party in power and their failure to be responsive to our needs.

This is why I think a left wing movement would be effective. At the very least it would show the establishment that they can't ignore the needs of the left and still be an effective alternative to the Republican Party.
Will be effective*

It's happening right now
 
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