best nutrients to use in hydro

im4satori

Well-Known Member
I knew all that going into it, but was convinced by many growers here and elsewhere claiming good results. The high ratio of nitrogen did cause me a bit of concern.
some strains are more sensitive to N than others... kush strain for example may not do well with high N or high temps

and type of medium im sure plays a big roll in mitigating excess
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I knew all that going into it, but was convinced by many growers here and elsewhere claiming good results. The high ratio of nitrogen did cause me a bit of concern.
But, like with Hydro Research V + B (another high N one part formula) it should be fine for vegging, no?
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
ive been running organic soil for a bit just for something new...but im in the process of switching back to my dtw rockwool only because for me its less work than building and re-amending organic soil (true organic not the bullshit liquid organic nutes)

my bloom numbers look like this

2:1:3 RATIO NPK +/- depending on my mood and stage

80 to 120 ppm N
40 to 60 ppm P
150 to 180 ppm K
100 ppm Ca
50 pm Mg

veg

120 to 130 ppm N
35 ppm P +/-
130 to 150 ppm K
100 Ca
50 Mg

I usually sit between EC 1.2 to 1.4 max at full strength
Are you using the 500 or 700 scale. Is everything you post using that scale?
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
mega crop 5 grams per gallon

N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm

so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it



comparatively

chem grow per gallon
2 grams mix
2 grams calnite

N 103
P 47
K 171


so you can see theres a good degree of difference in the 2 fertilizers with the mega crop have more of a std veg ratio while the chem grow has lower N higher P and ample K... which is generally a bloom mix
I have a few questions if you dont mind.
Do you know what the ppm;s for the MPK is?
You have time to make me a formula using the megacrop for bloom to address the high N? Or something do you recommend I do something different than below?

I started my megacrop flower run the other day. I started with 55 gallons and went by the notion of going by ppm's to get where I wanted to be and that was about 700 ppm;s to start my flower run. So it ended to be about 350 grams of megacrop to do that. So I did that, foliar fed them a kelp and fulvic spray, flooded my pots and then I dip out a few gallons out of my res. added 5ml of the Raw bloom microbes to the 3 gallons and topped off all my pots with that mix. Ok. Then I thought I was done then came online and seen your post above. Ok so I got freaked out and topped of my rez with 5 more gallons of water to bring the ppm's down since I was scared about over doing it. Then I added 25 grams of epsom salt that same night before the next feeding. I only added the 25 grams so I didnt add too much. I enede up being back at 700ppm's. I dont really have a talent for math/clue with figuring the ratio's out I have always just gone by the H&G feed chart added some things that I thought would help and went for it. I have always understood they like some nitrogen less phosphorous and more potassium. Ok good enough, but it can be better. Im trying to have a better balanced nutrient ratio mix. Adding stuff and getting my nutrients out of balance is my main problem I do believe. So you posted this talking about your mixers 2:1:3 RATIO NPK +/- depending on my mood and stage. 2/1/3/ ok sound reasonable to me.

So I went to the mega website https://greenleafnutrients.com/feeding-chart/?v=7516fd43adaa and using the normal feeding chart section there I added 55 gallons and if you do this it says that in late flower I should be only adding 330 grams. Uhhhhh ok? Idk? Seems strange to me.

Then if you go to the ppm calculator I get this. 55 gallons 350 grams.


Element PPM calculation
Total Nitrogen (N)
168.1103

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
161.3779

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
6.7246

Phosphorous (P)
40.3488

Potassium (K)
202.3413

Magnesium (Mg)
31.9404

Calcium (Ca)
109.2696

Sulfur (S)
18.4920

Iron (Fe)
1.3451

Zinc (Zn)
1.8489

Boron (B)
1.3451

Manganese (Mn)
1.3451

Copper (Cu)
0.8405

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.1680

Silicon (Si)
1.6810

Total PPM 579.0903

I ended up about 700 ppm;s with what I did, like I said I wanted to be at 700 to start (500 scale) I had about 50 ppm's in my water to start. So add the two together and its 629 my nutrient monitor says 710 ok close enough, were good. (Im ok with the difference in ppm's as my ppm probe may need to have an adjustment. Not worrying about that right now.)

So am I out of balance, where did I screw up?

So if you use the mega feeding calculator why does one say Im maxed out for late bloom at 330 grams, I added 350, and I only had 700 ppm's. Come week five I want to be about 1300 ppm's and that looks like this. And that is 800 grams of megacrop. My gut tells me I want / need less nitrogen for this flowering stage.

55 gallons 800 grams.

Element PPM calculation
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704

Phosphorous (P)
92.2258

Potassium (K)
462.4945

Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066

Calcium (Ca)
249.7590

Sulfur (S)
42.2674

Iron (Fe)
3.0744

Zinc (Zn)
4.2261

Boron (B)
3.0744

Manganese (Mn)
3.0744

Copper (Cu)
1.9211

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839

Silicon (Si)
3.8422

Total PPM 1323.6349

I have always fed by ppm's as an indicator of where I needed to be for the plant size and stage of plant growth. Not to be confused with the ratio, I understand the plant wants a certain proper balanced nutrition. I just haven't been exact with that, with my adding this adding that laziness. Thats what I want to dial in. With these nutes it sounds like I dont need to add anything but then again I want to be sure I'm doing it right as I never used dry nutes on this level before.

You know where I'm screwing up??



TIA




 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Are you using the 500 or 700 scale. Is everything you post using that scale?
ok so heres whats confusing you

theres "active elemental ppm" which would be what youd see if you got a lab test of your source water

it would show you the exact amount of each element in the water

that's a true ppm reading

then theres your ppm meter... it doesn't read true active elemental ppm.... its meant to be used as a bench mark so you can see the changes that are happening in salinity over a given period of time... the meter doesn't actuall read real PPM as in elements

a ppm meter reads EC which is electrical conductivity and coverts the EC to ppm by math conversion using a factor of either 0.7 or 0.5 conversion rate depending on your meter brand

what that means is you cant compare your ppm meter to someone elses unless you know there meter has the same conversion
if I have a ppm meter at 0.5 conversion and yours is 0.7 then they'll read two different things in the same sdolution

so when your ppm meter breaks as they always eventually do... don't buy a ppm meter! buy and EC meter

EC is universal and should be the same no matter the brand, for that reason I don't speak of ppm in reference to your meter...if im referring to the meter I only use EC and only speak in terms of EC otherwise who knows

if I refer to ppm its in reference to elemental ppm and not the results on your meter

so when you lay out the math results for your fertilizer based on the nute calculator... that's not going to jive with your ppm meter
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
the nute calculator is estimating what a lab tested water analysis would show if you sent the solution to a lab to be tested

and it bases itself off the % amounts of each elemnt on the bag and at what weight in grams you add to a given volume of water
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
ok having said all that

now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp

without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement

in order to get the N down you could use less mega and add in mkp and that would fix your ratio but youll end up with to little iron if its reduced (according to the numbers you posted)

iron would need to be at least 1.3ppm or your bound to see def

ideally it would be more like 2.0ppm but you can squeak by with less

if you happen to have iron water as a source water then you might be ok

or
you could get a cheap iron supplement from ebay but it might be more trouble than its worth vs just using something else for bloom or whatever

if you want to get an iron supplement and proceed let me know and I will help you figure out the mix

there is plenty of all the other micro elements to make it work but for whatever reason the iron is low to begin with
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
here is what I shoot for
but keep in mind theres more than one ratio that can work

this is just what I prefer over the other options (bloom)

NPK 2:1:3

K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1

example

N 100 (can be slightly higher + /-20ppm or lowered in late bloom to 80ppm stage dependent)
P 50 (+/-) (wide range of ppm permitted)
K 150 (lower if using coco)
Ca 100 (depending on whats in source water)
Mg 50 (not under 40)


usually anything close to that plus or minus 10ppm to 20ppm (depending) of any element still keeps you in the ball aprk
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
mega crop is a 10/6/14 is that the same as your 2/1/3? Am I always stuck at 5 grams a gallon max if I give it more will I be out of ratio to achieve a higher ppm? Do I not want a higher ppm? I guess I dont understand about how much to give it. With H&G I just poured out more and went by ppm. Small plants 450-500ppm late veg about 650 then flower and I was thinking I was going to be able to push them to 1300-1400

You posted this
mega crop 5 grams per gallon

N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm

so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it



But I went by ppm but i still only added 5 grams a gallon and it came out to 700 ppm's here using the 5oo scale. I guess I don't know how to use these nutrients.

So I bought a bag of megacrop and I want to flower in a hydro system using 45-50 gallons of ro water in and ebb and flow with hydroton, now what do I do again? That's what I don't know.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
mega crop is a 10/6/14 is that the same as your 2/1/3? Am I always stuck at 5 grams a gallon max if I give it more will I be out of ratio to achieve a higher ppm? Do I not want a higher ppm? I guess I dont understand about how much to give it. With H&G I just poured out more and went by ppm. Small plants 450-500ppm late veg about 650 then flower and I was thinking I was going to be able to push them to 1300-1400

You posted this
mega crop 5 grams per gallon

N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm

so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it



But I went by ppm but i still only added 5 grams a gallon and it came out to 700 ppm's here using the 5oo scale. I guess I don't know how to use these nutrients.

So I bought a bag of megacrop and I want to flower in a hydro system using 45-50 gallons of ro water in and ebb and flow with hydroton, now what do I do again? That's what I don't know.
ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good!

full strength veg mix would be

5 grams mega
1 grams Epsom (1/4 tsp)

that's how youd mix it for veg

id find something else to use for bloom that has less N


as for the 2/1/3

that's ratios describiing the npk amounts

100 N
50 P
150 K

that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150

these numbers are a conversion of the % amounts listed on the bag

read my previous posts again becuae I feel like you may not have retained it all

the way the industry has these things set up is confusing and really makes little sense except to keep people confused

ppm meters shouldn't be called ppm meters or should be eliminated from the market all together because it confuses the conversation
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
imho

there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!

that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max

in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0

seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6

so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm

keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm


I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher

you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me

just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding... ;-)
 
Last edited:

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
In my Flood and Drain Hydro tables I use 1/6 of what is recommended per gallon of water for outdoor grows.

The fertilizer preferred by Kush growers in the nineties was Eco Bloom A&B. Someone said they've changed the A since, but I don't know for sure.

I scale the fertilizer with weigh scales because it can get heavier per volume over time if it gets a bit warm but it can still be used.
 

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
imho

there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!

that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max

in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0

seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6

so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm

keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm


I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher

you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me

just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding... ;-)

I agree fully with this . less is more with all this new hybrid stuff etc. I have some old genetic from like 20 years ago that will eat EC2.0 for the fun of it, other then that I haven't really seen anything that takes of 1.4 -1.5 . in fact I have a one here now from a notable breeder its max is 1.2 EC
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
ok so heres whats confusing you

theres "active elemental ppm" which would be what youd see if you got a lab test of your source water

it would show you the exact amount of each element in the water

that's a true ppm reading

then theres your ppm meter... it doesn't read true active elemental ppm.... its meant to be used as a bench mark so you can see the changes that are happening in salinity over a given period of time... the meter doesn't actuall read real PPM as in elements

a ppm meter reads EC which is electrical conductivity and coverts the EC to ppm by math conversion using a factor of either 0.7 or 0.5 conversion rate depending on your meter brand

what that means is you cant compare your ppm meter to someone elses unless you know there meter has the same conversion
if I have a ppm meter at 0.5 conversion and yours is 0.7 then they'll read two different things in the same sdolution

so when your ppm meter breaks as they always eventually do... don't buy a ppm meter! buy and EC meter

EC is universal and should be the same no matter the brand, for that reason I don't speak of ppm in reference to your meter...if im referring to the meter I only use EC and only speak in terms of EC otherwise who knows

if I refer to ppm its in reference to elemental ppm and not the results on your meter

so when you lay out the math results for your fertilizer based on the nute calculator... that's not going to jive with your ppm meter
None of what you posted above I was confused about. I already understand what my ppm meter reads and how it works. You have posted actual individual ppm amounts for each elements in the past. So I assumed you have knowledge of these products or work in a lab and have run these products at work to break down each individual element, something like that idk. Or are you using the megacrop website when you talk about the 5 grams per gallon and whats in it using their product?

Ok I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to help I understand how frustrating it is trying to help people that dont know or understand what they need to know. And I do appreciate the time your putting in. I do know that if I cant understand this with how your trying to teach me you will bail and that's cool.



I suppose im trying to do this without learning any math. What he goal is to feed my plants a proper balanced nutrient diet or or something close to it, or at least better than what i have been doing. Im like the guy in the taken movie I have developed a certain set of skills of getting deficiencies and correcting them or not correcting them. Im not to worried about an iron deficiency, hell I would be happy if thats all I got.

Like I said I have only used H&G nutrients. (im just going to throw random numbers out there to make my point>) 300ml to 50 gallons of water gets me 800 ppm then if I add more nutes I get more ppm's. Its what their feed chart says to do. And when I do that I know Im still good. Is that the case with the megacrop/dry nutes can I add more grams to the same amount of water and the ppms will go up and will I still be good-- as far as the ratio or the amounts of each element in the res. but dont focus on me saying elements Im will be just going by ppm's with my meter to judge what / how much im feeding it. I read you dont like to feed hot but I have fed hot, this hot with H&G and didnt burn my plants (strain specific some strains you might) Down below in this post. Thats the wrong thing to do to much nitrogen. but Dont focus on me saying nitrogen I am going by ppm's all the other numbers come up to. I cant do it like that?

so yeah this post is getting out of hand even for myself its taking too long and I have more posting to do with what you said earlier to post about. I think I have a solution but I will post that later on how I think we can agree that this needs to be done but I wanted to just use the megacrop and the megacrop alone from start to finish or megacrop and some other stuff to tweek it, tweek it in the right direction for what I want to acheive.


55 gallons 800 grams.

Element PPM calculation
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704

Phosphorous (P)
92.2258

Potassium (K)
462.4945

Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066

Calcium (Ca)
249.7590

Sulfur (S)
42.2674

Iron (Fe)
3.0744

Zinc (Zn)
4.2261

Boron (B)
3.0744

Manganese (Mn)
3.0744

Copper (Cu)
1.9211

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839

Silicon (Si)
3.8422

Total PPM 1323.6349
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good!

full strength veg mix would be

5 grams mega
1 grams Epsom (1/4 tsp)

that's how youd mix it for veg

id find something else to use for bloom that has less N


as for the 2/1/3

that's ratios describiing the npk amounts

100 N
50 P
150 K

that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150

these numbers are a conversion of the % amounts listed on the bag

read my previous posts again becuae I feel like you may not have retained it all

the way the industry has these things set up is confusing and really makes little sense except to keep people confused

ppm meters shouldn't be called ppm meters or should be eliminated from the market all together because it confuses the conversation
ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good! OK cool I havent fugged it up yet but I'm at week one of flower and according to the megacrop website and your thoughts about feeding i'm at week 5-6 of flower as far as the strength of my nutient solution.

as for the 2/1/3

that's ratios describiing the npk amounts

100 N
50 P
150 K

that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150


This and how you posting this is whats confusing me I think isnt the npk ratio described as being 2% nitrogen by weight will be in that nutrient mix same for the others so if I had a ten pound bag of 2/1/3 then 2 pounds of it will be nitrogen same for the other elements. or do I have that wrong?

megacrop is a 10/6/14 so in that lingo that looks 500/300/700 so is that a 5/3/7.
chem-grow is a 4/20/39 is that the same as a 1/4/9.75
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
imho

there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!

that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max

in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0

seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6

so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm

keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm


I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher

you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me

just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding... ;-)

there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!

that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max

If I go that low I will get deficiencies in flower or do I have deficiencies in flower because my plant haven't stored enough of the elements to make it through flower because I have my nutrient ratio's wrong in veg all the time then it goes to flower and it doesnt have enough of the right stuff stored to be able to perform in flower?: or something like that.

small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0

seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6

so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm

Ok cool you converted it to the 500 scale for me thanks. What you said here is what I do but that ec of 1.4 is late veg for me then I want to do this
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
Probably not that hot but lets say I want to go up to 1500 ppm's (500 scale again)

Im either not feeding it right in veg with the proper nutrient ratio God know that the H&G doesnt have shit for nitrogen in it and I haven't been supplementing a lot of extra nitrogen (trying to correct that problem) but I dont see a lot of nitrogen deficiencies but I do get mag and potassium deficiencies a lot. But we dont need to focus on the past we need to focus on the future and do it right.
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
ok having said all that

now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp

without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement

in order to get the N down you could use less mega and add in mkp and that would fix your ratio but youll end up with to little iron if its reduced (according to the numbers you posted)

iron would need to be at least 1.3ppm or your bound to see def

ideally it would be more like 2.0ppm but you can squeak by with less

if you happen to have iron water as a source water then you might be ok

or
you could get a cheap iron supplement from ebay but it might be more trouble than its worth vs just using something else for bloom or whatever

if you want to get an iron supplement and proceed let me know and I will help you figure out the mix

there is plenty of all the other micro elements to make it work but for whatever reason the iron is low to begin with
now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp
what you said here is what I wanted to do.

without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement

I hear you but I thought I would be able to do something wit hit I want a cheaper nutrient to use and just one nutrient line maybe with just a couple of extra things to tweek it. So basically the megacrop has to much nitrogen in it for a flower nute so I add mpk but Ill get an iron deficeincy. I dont think I want an iron deficiency id rather have something easy like a mag deficiency. I do have shitty rusty looking water sometimes. idk
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
Ok that was brutal wasnt it.

So I have the megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and the chem-gro 4/20/39 and all of the extras for the chem-gro ca,mpk epsom salt.

so how do I make all that work. I cant flower with the megacrop? I use megacrop through week two of flower then switch to the chem-gro and cut the calcium nitrate in half or something like that from what they posted as a feed schedule. Still need to get some calcium in there.

I understand more nitrogen in veg less in flower etc etc etc. i get all that I just dont understand how the dry nutes scale up to be at 12-1500 ppm's in late flower or its just staring me in the face and I dont realize something. I was thinking run the megacrop hit it with some mpk in mid flower and im in the zone. I guess I cant do that or it isnt as easy as that. Im trying to keep things in balance with a proper nutrient ratio but I dont know what the actual pp'ms are for each element and can only go by total ppm.s for the entire reservoir. Basically im back to guessing again with these dry nutes, winging it in a different way like I was winging it before. But dont read into that too much not exactly guessing or winging it I want to be more exact and on point and not get by with close enough. And not spend so much money at a hydro store.

I think mega in veg then chem-gro in flower and just keep it simple like that.
 
Top