Biden Shanked The Progs

schuylaar said:

i don't 'click.' it's an offensive word that you intimate. not everyone is a moron.

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I call bullshit. You never went into a troll's thread here? When you get onto youtube, you never are interested in a video's title/picture (like something from 'the Hill' and click on it only to then find out that it is likewise a troll. That video alters what you then see throughout your youtube page, and you subtlety will see that much more inflammatory information.

Fogdog said:

Two studies on the effects of media on how people voted. One from 2007 and one more recently.

I'm not going to copy and paste much from them.

The second study was reviewed on Vox and their summary is easier to digest:

A stunning new study shows that Fox News is more powerful than we ever imagined

It could even be flipping elections.

www.vox.com

the first study, published in 2007 and looked into changes in voting patterns between 1996 and 2000 in communities after Fox began to broadcast in them. Fox came online earlier in some areas than in others and the study compared shifts in voter sentiment based when Fox began to pump their brand of "news" into them. Their conclusion:

We find a significant effect of exposure to Fox News on voting. Towns with Fox News have a 0.4 to 0.7 percentage point higher Republican vote share in the 2000 presidential elections, compared to the 1996 elections. A vote shift of this magnitude is likely to have been decisive in the 2000 elections. We also find an effect on vote share in Senate elections, which Fox News did not cover, suggesting that the Fox News impact extends to general political beliefs. Finally, we find evidence that Fox News increased turnout to the polls

The second study, published in 2017, looked into the relative effects of cable news channels, MSNBC, CNN, and Fox. It also builds off of the earlier study and shows the effect that Fox has on elections is very strong.

Our estimates imply increasing effects of FNC on the Republican vote share in presidential elections over time, from 0.46 points in 2000 to 6.34 points in 2008. Furthermore, we estimate that cable news can increase polarization and explain about two-thirds of the increase among the public in the US, and that this increase depends on both a persuasive effect of cable news and the existence of tastes for like-minded news. Finally, we find that an influence-maximizing owner of the cable news channels could have large effects on vote shares, but would have to sacrifice some levels of viewership to maximize influence.

Elsewhere in the study, they showed that MSNBC, though every bit as biased as FNC, did not have the same effect on its viewers as did FNC. In fact, FNC was a stronger influence to get moderates and Democrats to vote for Republicans but MSNBC had none of that kind of effect on Republicans.

Given the results from these studies -- that FNC is a force in determining elections for Republicans in a way that left side biased channels do not -- the graphic shown below is a bit ominous to me. I don't really want to live in a right wing society that is hooked on fake news in order to justify its actions:

View attachment 4754571
Fox News knows what it's doing. Republican and wealthy people know it too. Even when its ideology was just slightly to the right, they helped Republican swing the 2000 elections. Over time, they have gone harder and harder to the left with concurrent effect on the political choices their viewers made. And then we had Trump.

So, I don't know how effective "reaching out" to the the radical right is going to be. Their propaganda machine is able to broadcast fake news 24/7 and get their viewership to buy into their BS without any evidence to back up their claims. Perhaps the problem is not that Democrats aren't being nice enough.

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I think that the narrative that MSNBC and CNN are as biased as Fox is dangerously wrong.

Fox cherry picks their narratives and uses the hate radio shock jock style to shot down 'libs' to sell Republicans, MSNBC doesn't do that, and although I don't watch much CNN what I have I can safely say that they don't either.

I think I would look at it as Fox is selling the Republicans while MSNBC and CNN are presenting the Republicans for what they are. And that is being labeled as 'bias', when it is just reporting.

injinji said:

The printing press did the same thing. The religious wars in Europe were stoked by pamphlets. Any time a new communications system comes on line, folks will use to sow hate and division. It's just human nature.

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Hence it is regulated, like printing presses once were and like radio and TV stations once were too. It is the job of governments to deal with human nature using regulation and law. Often greed uses hate, many of those printing pamphlets and "alternative" Bibles just filled the increasing demand, like right wing TV. The religious wars killed a lot of people in Europe, that's what alternative realities do, in their cases both realities were bullshit and the truth was left to science, but that came later.

injinji said:

The printing press did the same thing. The religious wars in Europe were stoked by pamphlets. Any time a new communications system comes on line, folks will use to sow hate and division. It's just human nature.

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.and for that time you are correct. we have FB live with real time organized advertising content paid in rubles. that's a problem.

hanimmal said:

I call bullshit. You never went into a troll's thread here? When you get onto youtube, you never are interested in a video's title/picture (like something from 'the Hill' and click on it only to then find out that it is likewise a troll. That video alters what you then see throughout your youtube page, and you subtlety will see that much more inflammatory information.


I think that the narrative that MSNBC and CNN are as biased as Fox is dangerously wrong.

Fox cherry picks their narratives and uses the hate radio shock jock style to shot down 'libs' to sell Republicans, MSNBC doesn't do that, and although I don't watch much CNN what I have I can safely say that they don't either.

I think I would look at it as Fox is selling the Republicans while MSNBC and CNN are presenting the Republicans for what they are. And that is being labeled as 'bias', when it is just reporting.

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face it. i'm older and have more car insurance than you, Hanimmal.

schuylaar said:

face it. i'm older and have more car insurance than you, Hanimmal.

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lol fair enough.

But I don't think that makes you immune to clickbait propaganda that forever alters your feeds.

hanimmal said:

lol fair enough.

But I don't think that makes you immune to clickbait propaganda that forever alters your feeds.

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clickbait propaganda has a certain look and feel to it..some obtuse lead in question that i wouldn't give a flying fvck about IRL that centers around the outrage.

also, i don't have 'feeds'..obvi there's one here. i have FB and Twitter to login so i may troll others. i don't use those platforms..insta tiktok parlor besides why go to them?..they come to us

schuylaar said:

clickbait propaganda has a certain look and feel to it..some obtuse lead in question that i wouldn't give a flying fvck about IRL that centers around the outrage.

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It can be as obscure as a yarn knitting video.

You never know until they hook someone on.

hanimmal said:

You never know until they hook someone on

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nothing better than knitting humor on a Sunday morning

hanimmal said:

It can be as obscure as a yarn knitting video.

You never know until they hook someone on.

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did you just say yarn knitting?

schuylaar said:

did you just say yarn knitting?

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lmao I am sorry I have no idea what it is called. My wife is just taking it up and it was the first thing I thought of that is not something you'd think would be later used to steer people into deeper propaganda.

A lot of the 'channels' on youtube are set up for just that purpose, just basically click bait information gatherers.

schuylaar said:

i don't 'click.' it's an offensive word that you intimate. not everyone is a moron.

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Oh, so you don't think that the 2016 Democratic primary was rigged any more? You cling to the idea that your weak, perhaps corrupt and ineffective mayor in Florida actually won the election for governor, do you not. Just listening to tty and Pad, the left are very much vulnerable to conspiracy theories. One problem with radicals, both left and right is an unwillingness to admit you are wrong in the face of facts.

Fogdog said:

One problem with radicals, both left and right is an unwillingness to admit you are wrong in the face of facts.

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or maybe it is a willingness to accept something might be true regardless of said facts (idk what conspiracy we are talking about but still)

Dryxi said:

or maybe it is a willingness to accept something might be true regardless of said facts (idk what conspiracy we are talking about but still)

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It's just something I've noticed. People who are far left or far right don't seem to care about facts when they get in the way with their beliefs.

Fogdog said:

It's just something I've noticed. People who are far left or far right don't seem to care about facts when they get in the way with their beliefs.

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Far left extremists tend to be driven by resentment and jealously at their core, while the right wing extremists are driven by hate and fear. Leftwing extremists are rare, thought they tend to be here in greater than average numbers, rightwing extremists are not so rare, there is a base of 75 million radicalized people to draw from. You will see al lot more rightwing terrorism in the coming months and years, unless their radicalization is treated the same way as they treat Islamic terrorists.

Don't be shy about going after the disinformation network that radicalizes and sustains this shit, it makes talking sense to these people impossible and social pressure doesn't work because they have their own online tribe for emotional support. The decentralized rightwing disinformation and propaganda machine followed Donald through the gates of Hell, use their covid disinformation to destroy them, with senate hearings if you can win it. Facebook, YouTube and twitter are not just sources of disinformation for these people, they provide a sense of community and shared "values", they formed a tribe/cult. Donald was the catalyst for this tribe/cult, the nucleus of the shitstorm of domestic propaganda and disinformation combined with social media for social support and further bias reinforcement.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Far left extremists tend to be driven by resentment and jealously at their core, while the right wing extremists are driven by hate and fear. Leftwing extremists are rare, thought they tend to be here in greater than average numbers, rightwing extremists are not so rare, there is a base of 75 million radicalized people to draw from. You will see al lot more rightwing terrorism in the coming months and years, unless their radicalization is treated the same way as they treat Islamic terrorists.

Don't be shy about going after the disinformation network that radicalizes and sustains this shit, it makes talking sense to these people impossible and social pressure doesn't work because they have their own online tribe for emotional support. The decentralized rightwing disinformation and propaganda machine followed Donald through the gates of Hell, use their covid disinformation to destroy them, with senate hearings if you can win it. Facebook, YouTube and twitter are not just sources of disinformation for these people, they provide a sense of community and shared "values", they formed a tribe/cult. Donald was the catalyst for this tribe/cult, the nucleus of the shitstorm of domestic propaganda and disinformation combined with social media for social support and further bias reinforcement.

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I don't see this as having any easy solutions. I think we have to out-work them at the grassroots level to get out the vote and outlast them in society. Also Democrats need to make progress on expanding the number of good paying jobs, a good economy and delivering on making access to affordable healthcare available to everybody. In other words, they need to show voters that good governance makes a difference in their health and well being. Given this low point that Trump has created, it won't be very hard to show an improvement. But I think people want more than just that.

Just listening to the things that @Padawanbater2 and @ttystikk said when they hung out here, left wing radicals are every bit as authoritarian and full of fake news as right wingers. As you point out, there aren't very many left-side radicals to begin with and there will never be many because their movement doesn't appeal to rich people and they won't fund it like the do right side radicalism. The Tea Party movement, for example was bankrolled by people like the Koch Brothers.

Fox New Corporation is not under the jurisdiction of any government body. The FCC regulates over-air broadcasting but not cable channels. Some amount of legislation would have to be passed into law before what you talk about can happen. Frankly, I'm not certain I want government to have that much control of the media. I don't have an alternative suggestion, I just don't much care for the idea that Trump could have silenced CNN or NPR if he wanted to.

Fogdog said:

I don't see this as having any easy solutions. I think we have to out-work them at the grassroots level to get out the vote and outlast them in society. Also Democrats need to make progress on expanding the number of good paying jobs, a good economy and delivering on making access to affordable healthcare available to everybody. In other words, they need to show voters that good governance makes a difference in their health and well being. Given this low point that Trump has created, it won't be very hard to show an improvement. But I think people want more than just that.

Just listening to the things that @Padawanbater2 and @ttystikk said when they hung out here, left wing radicals are every bit as authoritarian and full of fake news as right wingers. As you point out, there aren't very many left-side radicals to begin with and there will never be many because their movement doesn't appeal to rich people and they won't fund it like the do right side radicalism. The Tea Party movement, for example was bankrolled by people like the Koch Brothers.

Fox New Corporation is not under the jurisdiction of any government body. The FCC regulates over-air broadcasting but not cable channels. Some amount of legislation would have to be passed into law before what you talk about can happen. Frankly, I'm not certain I want government to have that much control of the media. I don't have an alternative suggestion, I just don't much care for the idea that Trump could have silenced CNN or NPR if he wanted to.

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It is a a relatively easy problem to comprehend, but a difficult one to solve, especially short term, Joe and the democrats will need some breathing room. It will require a multifaceted approach and must be waged on several fronts, primarily organizing a ground game in all 50 states as a reaction to covid and Trump. Stacey Abrams offers some guidance and inspiration here. Winning the senate is crucial not just to move forward but to survive, dealing with Mitch will be a bitch, but he has senators who are suppose to represent states that are hurting badly. I think he wants covid gone and Donald too, he is more of a liability now that his usefulness is finished.

The issues of globalization, migration and automation will continue to exacerbate the endemic racism, bigotry and xenophobia, the biases that underlay most societies. One of the drivers of this stuff is income distribution, the rightwing media seeks to promote social division and obscure this basic fact from people. Most of this stuff is on cable, but broadcast streaming media, what I call spoon feed media, including radio, is dangerous stuff and was regulated from the beginning for good reason. In the age of the internet, not just America must come to terms with this pernicious influence, the other democracies have to as well, and much of it in the English world emanates from America, through unregulated social media companies.

Ideas are ok, but bullshit kills, Trump proved it, it needs to be discussed and solutions found, usually such things are done by the senate or an expert panel of journalist, lawyers, political scientists, sociologists and technologists could be appointed to report on the media situation and offer solutions. One quick and dirty way to eliminate hate radio short term and it's influence on rural America, is to reassign the analog broadcast band for digital use. They did wanna fuck up internet neutrality after all.

hanimmal said:

lmao I am sorry I have no idea what it is called. My wife is just taking it up and it was the first thing I thought of that is not something you'd think would be later used to steer people into deeper propaganda.

A lot of the 'channels' on youtube are set up for just that purpose, just basically click bait information gatherers.

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then tell your wife since she's prone to clickbait when she yarns.

seems like a lot of the Biden cabinet to date is MSNBC pundit heavy..and not the ones that I'd choose.

schuylaar said:

then tell your wife since she's prone to clickbait when she yarns.

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She never actually told me about it, I just saw her knitting one day.

That is not true, this morning she said it is a lot harder than she thought it would be. I think she called it crochet but I am not sure that is how it is spelled, so if I called it by something that is not what it is called, I apologize, it is not something I know anything about.

But that also doesn't mean that youtube videos on it might not be a data collection site that will eventually be used to push propaganda to its followers.

schuylaar said:

seems like a lot of the Biden cabinet to date is MSNBC pundit heavy..and not the ones that I'd choose.

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I was going to joke about it being because they are not white men?

Do you know what their actual resume is or just that you have seen them on MSNBC in a 4 year period that actual political discourse was non-existent in DC?

https://www.americanprogress.org/person/tanden-neera/


I have no idea how you can not think of this pick as being a problem in any way shape or form.

And I especially would not that the Republican crying like little babies about her just shows that she is a big change from the racist that they voted for that was Trump's pick.

Here is his racist as shit memo saying that hiring diversity is 'divisive' and 'propaganda'.

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Fogdog said:

I don't see this as having any easy solutions. I think we have to out-work them at the grassroots level to get out the vote and outlast them in society. Also Democrats need to make progress on expanding the number of good paying jobs, a good economy and delivering on making access to affordable healthcare available to everybody. In other words, they need to show voters that good governance makes a difference in their health and well being. Given this low point that Trump has created, it won't be very hard to show an improvement. But I think people want more than just that.

Just listening to the things that @Padawanbater2 and @ttystikk said when they hung out here, left wing radicals are every bit as authoritarian and full of fake news as right wingers. As you point out, there aren't very many left-side radicals to begin with and there will never be many because their movement doesn't appeal to rich people and they won't fund it like the do right side radicalism. The Tea Party movement, for example was bankrolled by people like the Koch Brothers.

Fox New Corporation is not under the jurisdiction of any government body. The FCC regulates over-air broadcasting but not cable channels. Some amount of legislation would have to be passed into law before what you talk about can happen. Frankly, I'm not certain I want government to have that much control of the media. I don't have an alternative suggestion, I just don't much care for the idea that Trump could have silenced CNN or NPR if he wanted to.

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Imagine at the dawn of radio in the 1920's a mere 70 years after the civil war, if "confederate" radio stations started popping up all over the south in the 30's. Broadcast media was very tightly regulated and is still censored for sexual content, only the means of delivery have changed, not it's power. Hitler used hate radio for 5 years before the second world war and holocaust and state media provides the official narrative in totalitarian regimes. It doesn't influence everybody, but they too have their base and minority in control of government can dominate a majority. Putin has his base in Russia too, some driven by Russian nationalism, some by bigotry, some by greed.

We can get into a situation where we must be defended by "good" billionaires, against evil ones, spectators and victims of a clash of titans for control of our destinies. We must seek past, as well as future solutions, some of the past solutions worked and were destroyed because they did. Look what they got rid of an why, anti trust and tax on the wealthy are good examples, media regulation was another, new disruptive communications technologies have arisen. The government has been slow to manage this issue, since it is bound up in free speech and politics. Serious problems have arisen because of this, because citizens cannot identify the true causes and solutions of social issues. The bottom half of the population is living on a fraction of the wealth, in Canada 50% of the population gets 6% of the wealth and America is worse.

People are getting screwed and know it, they just don't know the reasons, because false narratives, lies and the other noise the decentralized rightwing nut verse produces. The owners of these outfits don't want to pay taxes or have regulation, their audience don't want to form a sharing community with those they fear and despise, so they confirm their biases. Trump ended up using this media and more importantly social media like Hitler used radio, he is the center of the whirlwind and illustrates the danger. Trump reached a biased, distressed base with traditional dog whistles and blatant racism, he gathered the existing tribes and wielded them into a unified force, racism, bigotry and grievance are the cement that holds the aggregate of other issues together.