PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Some day I'd like to do no-till indoors, but it seems like a lot of work to do it properly.
Black strap molasses
- Thread starter myke
- Start date
Or you could just be lazy with it like I am, and do it "improperly" I guess?
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
Hahaha. I'm kinda cheating too. I don't use a cover crop. Just a rice hull mulch layer>Or you could just be lazy with it like I am, and do it "improperly" I guess?
Most of my time with my plants is spent looking for that centipede I thought I saw crawl out from under the mulch. lol
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Every time I try to cut corners in organic grows, I end up regretting it.Or you could just be lazy with it like I am, and do it "improperly" I guess?
I avoid corners. If you allow the plant to do the heavy lifting and make its own decisions, then it leaves us only with the task of ensuring they get water. If my plant thinks it needs to summon more bacteria via sugary exudates that include protein molecules that signal genetic changes in bacteria via quorum sensing in order to supply extra potash at exactly 2pm on the 15th day after flip, I don't argue with it. Frankly I don't care either. My plants can do whatever they want if it makes them happy.
Adding sugar to brewed compost teas is one thing, but adding it to the soil with growing plants is a questionable practice IMO. At the homeopathic level that most use in their watering, it probably makes no difference. More sugar though on a regular basis could have negative consequences, since sugar has zero nitrogen and is basically soluble carbon and easily digestible by bacteria. An application will definitely lead to a temporary explosion in bacterial growth and an fast reduction in available nitrogen. That's not usually what we want. Plus I wonder what sugar does in soil and how it may affect exudate signaling.
I tend to keep it very simple. It helps me avoid corners. Otherwise I'd be cutting those corners with a chainsaw. I have other hobbies and past times that use up a great deal of my time, so I like to keep this hobby worry-free and not have it take up more than an hour a week or so at most. (Until trimming time of course
) lol
Last edited:
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
I'm the kind of person who opts to do things completely, or not do them at all. My horticulture classes from college taught me that plants certainly do not create their own environments, and proper soil building is also not a simple task. Soil building requires continual work over time, and a firm understanding of soil science. I really don't have the time for all that these days, so I grow hydro. It sounds like a lot of wondering and speculation in your post. I'd suggest this book, which might take a lot of your wondering out of the equation, it's the same textbook (updated) which I used 25 years ago in college: https://www.amazon.com/Soil-Science-Management-Edward-Plaster/dp/0840024320I avoid corners. If you allow the plant to do the heavy lifting and make its own decisions, then it leaves us only with the task of ensuring they get water. If my plant thinks it needs to summon more bacteria via sugary exudates that include protein molecules that signal genetic changes in bacteria via quorum sensing in order to supply extra potash at exactly 2pm on the 15th day after flip, I don't argue with it. Frankly I don't care either. My plants can do whatever they want if it makes them happy.
Adding sugar to brewed compost teas is one thing, but adding it to the soil with growing plants is a questionable practice IMO. At the homeopathic level that most use in their watering, it probably makes no difference. More sugar though on a regular basis could have negative consequences, since sugar has zero nitrogen and is basically soluble carbon and easily digestible by bacteria. An application will definitely lead to a temporary explosion in bacterial growth and an fast reduction in available nitrogen. That's not usually what we want. Plus I wonder what sugar does in soil and how it may affect exudate signaling.
I tend to keep it very simple. It helps me avoid corners. Otherwise I'd be cutting those corners with a chainsaw. I have other hobbies and past times that use up a great deal of my time, so I like to keep this hobby worry-free and not have it take up more than an hour a week or so at most. (Until trimming time of course
So what exactly does this work consist of? I'm sure you aren't in there with the bacteria forming aggregates from mineral and decayed organic matter... right? If you can mineralize elements bound up in complex organic molecules needed by the plants when they need it like they do, then you're a star!
I'm not sure what you mean by "plants certainly do not create their own environments". Obviously plants influence their environments, just like every other living organism on the earth, hopefully for the better for them. Heck, even plants create their own climate, let alone can signal for service via exudates to bacteria or through mycorrhizal associations. Plants are awesome man.
Edit: Now that I'm nicely stoned I can say this: Life is so powerful it has literally changed both the constituents of the atmosphere (oxygen!) and transformed that land. To say otherwise is to deny reality. And now that I'm really stoned this is what pisses me off the most is this part:
Do you seriously think a firm understanding in "soil science" is necessary to grow weed no-till organic? Why? So you can teach the bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and everything else to do what it's supposed to do? Growing is just a procedure and a recipe. You supply the environment, the ingredients, and follow the directions, then you'll smoke some of the best bud you've ever smoked. And no worry about nute issues and you can be as lazy as I am. lol
Last edited:
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you think you got it all figured out.
Absolutely I do not have it all figured out! lol
Our knowledge is just scratching the surface these days in soil ecology and the interactions of organisms in there and the chemical signaling between them. And your book is old buddy, and came out even before this paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16069
My point is that my motivation for going no-till organic is so that I can be irresponsible and not spend much fuss or time on them. lol Simple as that.
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
I'm really not interested in arguing with you about such things, because clearly you are just looking for a debate, and not really interested in my insights. Back in the day when I was actively practicing organic gardening, I guarantee that it was quite a bit of work to just build a proper compost. I would drive around the county to collect things live kelp off the beaches, alfalfa scraps at the feed and seed, spent hops and grain at the brewery, spent coffee grounds from the local coffee shop, and of course lawn and leaf clippings from the neighbors. Obviously the compost also needs to be turned at least once a week, but I did have some super hot badass compost to build my soil with. Soil science is actually pretty complex, which is why they have entire semester long classes on that topic alone in College. If you really want to learn about soil science, outside of the internet, I'd suggest that you look into horticulture classes at your local community college. Yeah that book is old, but most bibles are.
Dontjudgeme
Well-Known Member
Nice closing with the Bible part, and no I’m not being sarcastic.
So far all I've heard is "no-till organic is a lot of work" and that it requires "a firm understanding of soil science", and because I strongly disagree with these assertions "I need to attend horticulture classes at a community college". I generally consider "insights" to be held to slightly higher standards which may explain my lack of interest.
It is not necessary for people to drive around the country collecting exotic ingredients in order to create effective compost. Some people get into organic methods to create less of an environmental impact on their activities - not to increase it. I also advise people to check the legality concerning the collection of seaweed washed up on shore in their area before doing so because many jurisdictions regulate that activity to protect fragile beach environments.
Horticulture is based on the ever-changing and expanding body of empirical knowledge we call science. It is not the place to find unchanging truth written on stone tablets. Calling anything based on science a "bible" is antithetical.
Dontjudgeme
Well-Known Member
I don’t think that’s what he meant. Basically responding to the fact that the books he mentioned are still relevant today, regardless of how old they are, just like the Bible, at least that’s what I took from it. But I agree with both of you, interesting how the conversation went the direction it did off of a simple molasses inquiry. That’s the tricky part about science that I actually like, so many ways to end up with the same answer. Then it becomes debatable on who’s path to get to the same answer was better or quicker, and mysteriously still end in disagreement, cracks me up. I think you both made extremely valid points, and shouldn’t be taken with a grain of salt, but with an open mind to understand that there’s still a lot to understand. I congratulate both of you gentlemen, now let’s go blaze one, but first.... make sure we roll it around in some molasses, hahahaha, peace.
Leeski
Well-Known Member
Great post!
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Please don't put phrases in quotes that I never actually said.
I also never said that it was necessary to collect exotic ingredients for compost, I simply described my own past process in collecting readily available local materials, which would otherwise be dumped. Local beach guards never had any issue with my collecting of beach kelp, which would otherwise simply rot on shores. I would collect a few bucketfulls, not some industrial harvest.
Your debate with me seemingly stems from my statement that "Some day I'd like to do no-till indoors, but it seems like a lot of work to do it properly.", which you seemingly was personally offended by. Look dude, if you want to do the bare minimum, that's your thing. Will it grow plants? Sure. I personally am not interested in bare minimum "no-till gardening", and my reasons for such are steeped in both formal education, as well as long term hands on experience. You do your thing; I'll do mine.