Broad mites

And look, none of the oberon products are allowed in NYS. Must be toxic if it isn't allowed for use there.

https://www.cropscience.bayer.us/products/insecticides/oberon/label-msds

We'll see if Myclobutanil passed the NYS registration when I get back, or maybe you can look it up.

Funny you jump on me for defending use 1 or 2 times and now your doing the same advising people to use this one even more after preaching you are all organic. LOL.

Norby Grown said:

You never said oberon 2sc, that's what bayer had listed on it's site. Not my fault you can't be more specific in your wording. I showed you the sight right from Bayer. I have no problem researching you have a problem being specific!

Click to expand...

Oberon SC is Oberon in all forms
Oberon 2 SC
Oberon 4 SC is the forbid strength of 45.2 percent

Oberon 4SC is the Forbid strength. It is all in the labeling for use! Each version is mixed at the same final rate for a delivery percentage.....
Ob 2 SC is a mix rate of dbl the rate for Ob 4 SC......understand that?

Availability of the Oberon 4 SC has been limited to say the least. As of last year, it was still in production as far as I knew.....yet public sales are about nil.....I can get the Forbid but, not the Oberon 4 SC......

So, with that said. All you can get is the Oberon 2 SC..

Your drowning!

Norby Grown said:

And look, none of the oberon products are allowed in NYS. Must be toxic if it isn't allowed for use there.

Click to expand...

Logic again? States can do as they please - read the fucking tox reports already!

Norby Grown said:

Funny you jump on me for defending use 1 or 2 times and now your doing the same advising people to use this one even more after preaching you are all organic. LOL.

Click to expand...

I grow in organic soils, I use organic feeds if need be.

I suggest the use of Forbid (at the mix strength of half the given mix rate of the labels for Forbid) to those with mite problems they can not control. Use it and the war is over....Now clean your grow and even bomb the room.....(Oh shit - there go the use of pyrethrins! Want to argue those too?) Now keep your grow clean and don't bring in clones from anywhere that you don't know. I even give outside clones a dip in a pyrethrin and a greencure mix (be sure to spray the media surface and the container they are in!) to make sure they're "clean." Even then they go into an isolation area and are grown out to be sure they have no viral infection...

Have I used forbid myself? Yup! I have to admit it, I have. Twice, and the last time was 6-7 years ago...I had a problem with a new mite to the area - "Thanks Cali" and they were real persistent. Showed resistance to many normal treatments!

On the Farm - We use NO non organic substance to treat or prevent any infestation or infection. Can't, or we loose our certification...

Just stop reaching for straws now, ok?

End your pain...go away and heal thy self......

And in round 11, Dr. Who is ahead on points. It's hard to tko a weeble though.

The secret to keeping mites away?

Every now and then. Spray some Pyrethrin around the area. Hit the cracks around doors and windows (if you have them).

Pyrethrin is a powerful repellent to mites

Grow healthy plants! Stressed cannabis plants send out a scent (pheromone) that actually attracts mites and other damaging insects!

Follow the outside clone rules.

Russet and broad mites - Your left with almost nothing effective to kill them but, the mite "nukers".

Shit, with Russets. Pitch everything and sanitize the grow and start over is a viable solution!

Dr. Who said:

The secret to keeping mites away?

Every now and then. Spray some Pyrethrin around the area. Hit the cracks around doors and windows (if you have them).

Pyrethrin is a powerful repellent to mites

Grow healthy plants! Stressed cannabis plants send out a scent (pheromone) that actually attracts mites and other damaging insects!

Follow the outside clone rules.

Russet and broad mites - Your left with almost nothing effective to kill them but, the mite "nukers".

Shit, with Russets. Pitch everything and sanitize the grow and start over is a viable solution!

Click to expand...

Fire, Fire works very well,LOL
I would hang plants upside down on a wire with tanglefoot on each end of the wire. every couple hrs, i would go torch the little bastards until they were no more.

Aww, you want a truce now?

Admit I said the same thing about using Myclobutanil 1-2x to get rid of powdery mildew, which you said you had no knowledge of getting indoors, and you jumped down my throat for NO reason. Then you'll get a truce.

Admit your bullshit about myclobutanil being BANNED is bullshit. You tote that it's banned everywhere except china and oberon is banned HERE in the US in NYS. So why care about one and not the other?

I read the fucking tox reports. The levels needed for problems were way over what anyone would be exposed to unless you were spraying it yourself(possibly). Admit it, you blow things out of proportion to make things look bad about myclobutanil and ignore the problems with forbid. The amount necessary for any of those things in the tox reports to happen were from large amounts of myclobutanil but you like to make it look like they can happen with smoking exposure(different from eating it since it's burned). The reports of wasting syndrome and changed liver and brain and heart weights and bloody noses etc. from spiromesifen are at the same levels of exposure as the liver problems and reproductive problems of myclobutanil. Again making it look like nothing will happen to you when you get the same levels of myclobutanil or spiromesifen. So do you have a fetish with loosing weight, nose bleeds, lower brain weights, etc.?

And pyrethrins are organic but the piperonyl butoxide I've always wondered about.

But gee, everything you wrote down there sounds exactly like what I said if you change myclobutanil and oberon and change mites and powdery mildew and we're all set. I said only use it once or twice, clean the room and even said you can spray coconut oil in the base of the walls to catch spores so they don't stay dormant and get kicked back up. So basically you are arguing with yourself since we both recommended the exact same thing only with different products which both would never be used in the levels tested to show the problems with them. Esp since you are exposed to tons more myclobutanil on your food everyday! Way more than you'd ever get off your mj unless you were consuming pounds a day.

So you want a truce admit sicking your trolls on me and arguing with me in the way you did was wrong adn hypocritical.

Dr. Who said:

Logic again? States can do as they please - read the fucking tox reports already!



I grow in organic soils, I use organic feeds if need be.

I suggest the use of Forbid (at the mix strength of half the given mix rate of the labels for Forbid) to those with mite problems they can not control. Use it and the war is over....Now clean your grow and even bomb the room.....(Oh shit - there go the use of pyrethrins! Want to argue those too?) Now keep your grow clean and don't bring in clones from anywhere that you don't know. I even give outside clones a dip in a pyrethrin and a greencure mix (be sure to spray the media surface and the container they are in!) to make sure they're "clean." Even then they go into an isolation area and are grown out to be sure they have no viral infection...

Have I used forbid myself? Yup! I have to admit it, I have. Twice, and the last time was 6-7 years ago...I had a problem with a new mite to the area - "Thanks Cali" and they were real persistent. Showed resistance to many normal treatments!

On the Farm - We use NO non organic substance to treat or prevent any infestation or infection. Can't, or we loose our certification...

Just stop reaching for straws now, ok?

End your pain...go away and heal thy self......

Click to expand...

You got your # as the highest possible one even after i told you I did the tests and none was left after 8 weeks growing. And you know MJ isn't going to be the highest range, my #'s are avg yours is the longest time in ANY plant. You admit then that you are looking for misleading info where as I just randomly picked something in the AVERAGE range found for myclobutanils half life. It ranges from 7-30 days with an AVERAGE of 10-15. Meaning it's gone, just as I said, within the 60 days needed to flower a MJ plant. So if it's not there it can't hurt you. You just don't believe that it's gone without testing it and you won't test it so you won't believe because you won't do the research!

https://books.google.com/books?id=OzzbnO5Q1RgC&pg=PA562&lpg=PA562&dq=average+half+life+myclobutanil+in+plants&source=bl&ots=7K0d_k8uQx&sig=OdtNn20x1N38y3wf0zMSBI-q_mo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGkf3dzeXTAhUE5IMKHRDnAK0Q6AEIVjAH#v=onepage&q=average half life myclobutanil in plants&f=false

And to drive it home, look at weights and convert to mg from ml of eagle 20 used to spray a crop. It takes 2ml of eagle 20 which is 19.7% active ingredient per gallon. So how many mg are in 2ml put into a gallon of water to spray say 10-20 plants. A gallon should cover 10+ plants that are ready to go into flower to become 6 oz at dry take down( I think I covered 16 to runoff and probably lost 1/4gal on the floor). So 10 plants at 6 oz. ea would be 60oz. So how much myclobutanil would be there if it didn't dissipate at all from those 60 oz. I'll let someone else do the math. Then convert to the mg/kg body weight dosages to get any of the symptoms in the tox reports. Anyone can do it we'll all look at the math and correct it if need be.

Dr. Who said:

You said it yourself -


I got my # as the high one - you dig for the low one. The truth is most likely somewhere in between.
The FACT that it's toxic is lost on you. Damage to you testes must be fun to you....I know a lady who will step on them for you.

Keep running around and banging into walls just to defend eagle 20 - brilliant....

Spiromesifen is level IV potential for human toxicity.....That's as low as it gets (California says level III for oral and dermal but, that the dermal report is unacceptable).

The available information on spiromesifen and Oberon 2SC Insecticide/Miticide indicates that neither the active ingredient nor the formulated product was very acutely toxic in laboratory animal studies. Furthermore, spiromesifen did not demonstrate oncogenic, genotoxic or developmental (other than reduced pup body weight gains in the multigeneration reproduction study) toxicity properties. Although data from chronic and reproduction toxicity studies showed that this chemical has the potential to cause some toxicity, the estimated exposures of workers from use of the Oberon 2SC product or of the general public from the consumption of crops treated with this pesticide are not expected to pose significant health risks. Given the above, we do not object to the registration of Oberon 2SC Insecticide/Miticide on the basis of direct human risks.

Our respective chems have NO real relationship between them. Your reaching for straws that are not there.

Click to expand...

No admission
No truce
You wrong about -

Norby Grown said:

The reports of wasting syndrome and changed liver and brain and heart weights and bloody noses etc. from spiromesifen

Click to expand...

Post the source of the above - In ALL my tox reports read - No wasting, No liver changes, No brain or heart weights and sure as fuck no bloody noses.....I base my reply on every paper I've read, including the EPA's spiromesifen tolerance report!


Seems to be problems with that in your chemical though......In every report....including eye irritation - something spiro has NO problem at all with that.

Myclobutanil has a relatively low acute toxicity. The acute oral LD50 for mice is 1360 mg/kg, and ranges from 1.75 to 1.8 g/kg for rats. Myclobutanil metabolizes into 1,2,4-triazole, which has a lower acute toxicity than the parent compound (#EPA).

Workers exposed to myclobutanil have reported symptoms such as skin rash, allergic dermatitis, itchiness, nausea, heachache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting, nosebleed, and eye irritation (CDPR).

In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (#EPA). Myclobutanil is listed as a developmental toxin in the Toxics Release Inventory (#PANNA).

Chronic toxicity tests on rats found decreased body weight and changes to brain and spleen weight, in addition to reproductive effects (#EPA).

Just for fun I'll do that compare of application concentrations and the relation to possible health issues.

You say your mix rate is 2ml per gallon at 19.7%
For spiromesifen - Oberon/Forbid I mix at a lower given amount then the label - .41ml to be exact. That is 4.88 times less by volume then you mix.

Your gallon treats, in your words, maybe 10 plants.
My gallon will treat at the very least 50 plants at 6 ft in height. That's 5 times less mix applied to the plant, with a product that's at 4.856 times less concentrated to start with..... Applying that 3.4% difference in base concentration (so you can't whine about it).

See a trend here?

Lastly, you post a Lethal Dose50 (LD50) rate of 1360 mg/kg in mice for myclobutanil. That is a high mg dose, relatively speaking....We're not talking lethality here.

There is no "actual" given amount for spiromesifen. They list it as LD50>2000 ml/kg. That means they did not find a lethal dose level. They quit testing over 2000 and simply tend to rate it a III. They do that just to cover their bases.....or ass's if you like.

No more talk

You want to end this?

I made my statements.
You made yours.

We do what we feel is right for us - correct?

Let the members here, read the 2 sets of ideals and decide for themselves what THEY want to do as far using - or not!

Same thing for backtracker....just make your point and be done with it! Fuck the BUTT HURT and walk away being proud of what you said...

Later man.

I got no bad feelings for you or BT. Folks that tend to call names. Should expect grief back.

Seems we're stepping over that...finally.

Trying to step over it but you still don't get it. You want to "win" instead of tell the truth.

Ha, so now your gallon of mix treats more plants than my gallon of mix? How's that work? i was estimating on # of plants treated. Water is going to evenly treat unless you put some kind of sticker in it so you should at least realize that instead of just blurting out a #( my spray can treat 10x as many plants as yours, LOL). If you do the math 2 ml at 19% is .38 mils of active ingredient per gallon. If you do the weight conversion, considering a ml weighs less than a gram, you are looking at 380 milligrams active ingredient per gallon. There is not enough myclobutanil to cause ANY problems. That is how our uses turn out to be the same. There isn't enough active ingredient to do harm with either esp since it has 8 weeks to dissipate. So, letting the members here read what you wrote and thinking any of it is true is flat out wrong. you blow everything out of proportion and try to make yourself look "right". You even missed the appication rate I was getting at as measured in milligrams, which is the measurement they used in the studies in to find possible harm. When you realize teh milligram rate of application is meant to help with widespread spraying exposure, not mixing some for a small indoor crop and overall exposure thru eating 3 x a day you'd realize that you would have to drink the gallons of mixed water to get anywhere near the exposure listed to cause problems. That's where you are off your rocker trying to make my spraying 2x a few years ago look like it was harmful to patients. Maybe you don't realize how you tried to make me look because of my actions but I didn't like it. Shaming people only makes them fight to get seen in the right light. And shaming people when it's not deserved, when YOU are teh one who doesn't know what they are talking about sets up a pretty big wall.

I take my job seriously and if you think you can just throw around accusations as a "well known bored member" then take your fuking medicine. you said yourself you call names you should expect it back. Well mfer youre the one who started calling names here so expect shit back! Until you apologize I still think your an arrogant asshole, sorry. I do hold a grudge when someone introduces themselves to me on a board in that arrogant, know it all way. And you still don't get the mg doses being below any of these levels you're throwing around.

You obviously haven't read all the studies
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+7882
Source posted!

Again, just like myclobutanil, these levels that produce these toxic affects are from a much higher level than either of us would've been using. For the concentrations we use, if not overused or used in flower, they have the same probability of causing problems, which is near zero.

I didn't say I wanted to end this, I'll keep it going till I get an apology. I hold grudges with people who treat me like I'm insignificant and want to sway people with lies. I only reacted to being blindsided by someone who obviously didn't know his shit. Someone who wasn't even man enough to do it on his own, had to try and call out his "posse" to attack me, which after reading, they must've realized I was right since none ever came to his aid.

No admission, no truce. And i wasn't wrong.

Dr. Who said:

No admission
No truce
You wrong about -


Post the source of the above - In ALL my tox reports read - No wasting, No liver changes, No brain or heart weights and sure as fuck no bloody noses.....I base my reply on every paper I've read, including the EPA's spiromesifen tolerance report!


Seems to be problems with that in your chemical though......In every report....including eye irritation - something spiro has NO problem at all with that.

Myclobutanil has a relatively low acute toxicity. The acute oral LD50 for mice is 1360 mg/kg, and ranges from 1.75 to 1.8 g/kg for rats. Myclobutanil metabolizes into 1,2,4-triazole, which has a lower acute toxicity than the parent compound (#EPA).

Workers exposed to myclobutanil have reported symptoms such as skin rash, allergic dermatitis, itchiness, nausea, heachache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting, nosebleed, and eye irritation (CDPR).

In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (#EPA). Myclobutanil is listed as a developmental toxin in the Toxics Release Inventory (#PANNA).

Chronic toxicity tests on rats found decreased body weight and changes to brain and spleen weight, in addition to reproductive effects (#EPA).

Just for fun I'll do that compare of application concentrations and the relation to possible health issues.

You say your mix rate is 2ml per gallon at 19.7%
For spiromesifen - Oberon/Forbid I mix at a lower given amount then the label - .41ml to be exact. That is 4.88 times less by volume then you mix.

Your gallon treats, in your words, maybe 10 plants.
My gallon will treat at the very least 50 plants at 6 ft in height. That's 5 times less mix applied to the plant, with a product that's at 4.856 times less concentrated to start with..... Applying that 3.4% difference in base concentration (so you can't whine about it).

See a trend here?

Lastly, you post a Lethal Dose50 (LD50) rate of 1360 mg/kg in mice for myclobutanil. That is a high mg dose, relatively speaking....We're not talking lethality here.

There is no "actual" given amount for spiromesifen. They list it as LD50>2000 ml/kg. That means they did not find a lethal dose level. They quit testing over 2000 and simply tend to rate it a III. They do that just to cover their bases.....or ass's if you like.

No more talk

You want to end this?

I made my statements.
You made yours.

We do what we feel is right for us - correct?

Let the members here, read the 2 sets of ideals and decide for themselves what THEY want to do as far using - or not!

Same thing for backtracker....just make your point and be done with it! Fuck the BUTT HURT and walk away being proud of what you said...

Later man.

I got no bad feelings for you or BT. Folks that tend to call names. Should expect grief back.

Seems we're stepping over that...finally.

Click to expand...

Norby Grown said:

Trying to step over it but you still don't get it. You want to "win" instead of tell the truth.

Ha, so now your gallon of mix treats more plants than my gallon of mix? How's that work? i was estimating on # of plants treated. Water is going to evenly treat unless you put some kind of sticker in it so you should at least realize that instead of just blurting out a #( my spray can treat 10x as many plants as yours, LOL). If you do the math 2 ml at 19% is .38 mils of active ingredient per gallon. If you do the weight conversion, considering a ml weighs less than a gram, you are looking at 380 milligrams active ingredient per gallon. There is not enough myclobutanil to cause ANY problems. That is how our uses turn out to be the same. There isn't enough active ingredient to do harm with either esp since it has 8 weeks to dissipate. So, letting the members here read what you wrote and thinking any of it is true is flat out wrong. you blow everything out of proportion and try to make yourself look "right". You even missed the appication rate I was getting at as measured in milligrams, which is the measurement they used in the studies in to find possible harm. When you realize teh milligram rate of application is meant to help with widespread spraying exposure, not mixing some for a small indoor crop and overall exposure thru eating 3 x a day you'd realize that you would have to drink the gallons of mixed water to get anywhere near the exposure listed to cause problems. That's where you are off your rocker trying to make my spraying 2x a few years ago look like it was harmful to patients. Maybe you don't realize how you tried to make me look because of my actions but I didn't like it. Shaming people only makes them fight to get seen in the right light. And shaming people when it's not deserved, when YOU are teh one who doesn't know what they are talking about sets up a pretty big wall.

I take my job seriously and if you think you can just throw around accusations as a "well known bored member" then take your fuking medicine. you said yourself you call names you should expect it back. Well mfer youre the one who started calling names here so expect shit back! Until you apologize I still think your an arrogant asshole, sorry. I do hold a grudge when someone introduces themselves to me on a board in that arrogant, know it all way. And you still don't get the mg doses being below any of these levels you're throwing around.

You obviously haven't read all the studies
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+7882
Source posted!

Again, just like myclobutanil, these levels that produce these toxic affects are from a much higher level than either of us would've been using. For the concentrations we use, if not overused or used in flower, they have the same probability of causing problems, which is near zero.

I didn't say I wanted to end this, I'll keep it going till I get an apology. I hold grudges with people who treat me like I'm insignificant and want to sway people with lies. I only reacted to being blindsided by someone who obviously didn't know his shit. Someone who wasn't even man enough to do it on his own, had to try and call out his "posse" to attack me, which after reading, they must've realized I was right since none ever came to his aid.

No admission, no truce. And i wasn't wrong.

Click to expand...

The real point and bottom line is that we do what we believe is ok for US to do.
I come out against Eagle 20. Many do! Some no likey Forbid either......

To each his own...

As for your link. (which took you how long to post) Thyroid change was an increase in hormone production. This explains the body weight loss as the thyroid controls hunger and weight. More hormone- you loose weight in response. Another thing would be lower fat levels reduce weight also.

Liver change was an increase in size over 14 week testing by insane amounts given by oral and inhalation. This would be because it increases the action of the liver to decrease or block lipid fat use (the other reason test rats lost weight) Lipid fats are cholesterol and like fat types. Works more/harder = grow in size.

These 2 things are the reason for reduced pup weight's in follow on litters of the mice and rats that were still under dosage treatments.

The other things listed are an overall color change in the adrenal gland with a report of minor atrophy of said. This is directly related to the lower cholesterol/fat levels.

Any future reference by you to any listed bone problem.....The report stated flat out - "These results were not considered to be treatment-related. AND Greater ossification does not indicate a toxicological-relevant endpoint based on the lack of treatment-related toxicity at the highest dose tested."

There are NO reports of lower brain and heart weights, and no bloody nose reports - you listed that. So, in a sense, you are still wrong about those points. That was my point.

I think your the one stuck on trying to win Norby....your the one that comes back swinging.....and missing the marks that you make!

With all due respect, I don't think you understand the reports for the biological process's they tell you about...

This is the truth!

TTFN!

Oh, and as for any "apology" LMFAO! Forget about that! Welcome to "life on line".

Still missing the point I see.

Personally, if I think I stepped out of line and was wrong I'd apologize. Just because we're online isn't an excuse to act like an asshole, but that's me.

Did I not link the bloody nose report and the lower brain weight and all the other stuff? I thought it was in there somewhere in the toxnet report, oh well. Fact is anyone can look it up and find it with a few key words. I wasn't wrong, it's in a report somewhere.

The real point and bottom line is that you still don't understand amount needed to produce any effects, you lied thru your teeth to try and paint a fear based picture of using a product once or twice expecting everyone else to be too stupid to see thru your shit.
All this explanation below is more talk to try and "show your smart". I didn't try and understand the listed bad side effects because at the amount needed to cause any is something that'll never be reached. So ya, you are right on that! congratulations. But look at the time and amount of myclobutanil needed to produce the effects you pointed out. Little pot calling the kettle there huh?

That's the point(the amount needed and time to cause any reaction) and if you don't see that then your not too bright. You have no clue what's ok for us to do so you go after people above your belief level for fun. If you would educate yourself to this stuff you wouldn't be getting into these predicaments and wasting both of our time.

And holy shit, I was camping for the weekend, sorry i didn't meet your time requirements for a post reply, get used to it!

Not trying to win, just trying to teach people science, weights and measures and toxicity, so that they can think for themselves. No matter how much you say different it doesn't change that you are blowing things out of proportion and that's what I'm trying to teach about here, the only win is people understanding the process and not buying into your fear based lies.

Dr. Who said:

The real point and bottom line is that we do what we believe is ok for US to do.
I come out against Eagle 20. Many do! Some no likey Forbid either......

To each his own...

As for your link. (which took you how long to post) Thyroid change was an increase in hormone production. This explains the body weight loss as the thyroid controls hunger and weight. More hormone- you loose weight in response. Another thing would be lower fat levels reduce weight also.

Liver change was an increase in size over 14 week testing by insane amounts given by oral and inhalation. This would be because it increases the action of the liver to decrease or block lipid fat use (the other reason test rats lost weight) Lipid fats are cholesterol and like fat types. Works more/harder = grow in size.

These 2 things are the reason for reduced pup weight's in follow on litters of the mice and rats that were still under dosage treatments.

The other things listed are an overall color change in the adrenal gland with a report of minor atrophy of said. This is directly related to the lower cholesterol/fat levels.

Any future reference by you to any listed bone problem.....The report stated flat out - "These results were not considered to be treatment-related. AND Greater ossification does not indicate a toxicological-relevant endpoint based on the lack of treatment-related toxicity at the highest dose tested."

There are NO reports of lower brain and heart weights, and no bloody nose reports - you listed that. So, in a sense, you are still wrong about those points. That was my point.

I think your the one stuck on trying to win Norby....your the one that comes back swinging.....and missing the marks that you make!

With all due respect, I don't think you understand the reports for the biological process's they tell you about...

This is the truth!

TTFN!

Oh, and as for any "apology" LMFAO! Forget about that! Welcome to "life on line".

Click to expand...

Norby Grown said:

Still missing the point I see.

Personally, if I think I stepped out of line and was wrong I'd apologize. Just because we're online isn't an excuse to act like an asshole, but that's me.

Did I not link the bloody nose report and the lower brain weight and all the other stuff? I thought it was in there somewhere in the toxnet report, oh well. Fact is anyone can look it up and find it with a few key words. I wasn't wrong, it's in a report somewhere.

The real point and bottom line is that you still don't understand amount needed to produce any effects, you lied thru your teeth to try and paint a fear based picture of using a product once or twice expecting everyone else to be too stupid to see thru your shit.
All this explanation below is more talk to try and "show your smart". I didn't try and understand the listed bad side effects because at the amount needed to cause any is something that'll never be reached. So ya, you are right on that! congratulations. But look at the time and amount of myclobutanil needed to produce the effects you pointed out. Little pot calling the kettle there huh?

That's the point(the amount needed and time to cause any reaction) and if you don't see that then your not too bright. You have no clue what's ok for us to do so you go after people above your belief level for fun. If you would educate yourself to this stuff you wouldn't be getting into these predicaments and wasting both of our time.

And holy shit, I was camping for the weekend, sorry i didn't meet your time requirements for a post reply, get used to it!

Not trying to win, just trying to teach people science, weights and measures and toxicity, so that they can think for themselves. No matter how much you say different it doesn't change that you are blowing things out of proportion and that's what I'm trying to teach about here, the only win is people understanding the process and not buying into your fear based lies.

Click to expand...

#1: I read every word of that report! Just so you could not say I missed something. It is missing everything I said it was.

#2: You teach nothing but opinion based on "logic" and that is your own words - that you used "logic" to form your opinions. You gave no measures or weights on anything in your posts on Eagle 20. You simply stated to use it.

#3: You studied No tox reports till I hammered that issue home. Then you come back with false information - "There in some report somewhere." This last statement only exposes your baffoonery.

Conclusion: You are scrambling around, attempting to save your personal feelings from a severe case of Butt Hurt. What do they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? Your lowering your self to use words that, (how ever well earned by you) I will not lower myself to use on you.
I find you obtuse.

Now go ahead cry some more and look worse yet....

How soon we forget. You've already used worse words and done worse. I haven't "sicked my posse" on you yet. Someone is trying to save their ego here and it's not me.

I stated how much and how many times to use it, etc. Your really grasping for straws now to save face aren't you? Seems funny, as smart as you are that you were arguing with me without figuring all this stuff out yourself(weights, mg per spraying, how many plants it'll cover, etc.) and very telling. Either you aren't that smart or your a special kind of snowflake who expects people to teach you everything when you bash something, and I did, you just didn't get it. You know you can learn on your own? So next time figure out what you are bashing someone about and do some research and you won't get into these situations. Don't you think you should know things like application rate and the real half life before bashing something? you just tried to make everything look as bad as you could. That's not looking for the truth it's acting like a lawyer. It's misleading. It's lying!

I had read all the tox reports on myclobutanil before I ever used it. That's WHY I used it. But you tried to claim it caused cancer, which it doesn't. You said it takes exposure over a long period to cause problems and i told you I recommended using it 1 - 2 times but you still wouldn't back down. The more I "taught" you the worse you got, like a tantrum child. Logic is a great tool, you should read up on it. It goes well with data in forming facts.

I knew full well I wasn't going to get an apology I just wanted to expose you for the arrogant egotist that you are. And now you are trying to play saint? That's some funny stuff right there, I don't care who you are.

I'd go and find the reports that stated those other problems but I don't think it's worth the time and really doesn't even matter for the amount being used. The point that I was trying to drive home that seems pretty lost on you. For some reason you can't seem to grasp certain things, especially when coming from me.

Dr. Who said:

#1: I read every word of that report! Just so you could not say I missed something. It is missing everything I said it was.

#2: You teach nothing but opinion based on "logic" and that is your own words - that you used "logic" to form your opinions. You gave no measures or weights on anything in your posts on Eagle 20. You simply stated to use it.

#3: You studied No tox reports till I hammered that issue home. Then you come back with false information - "There in some report somewhere." This last statement only exposes your baffoonery.

Conclusion: You are scrambling around, attempting to save your personal feelings from a severe case of Butt Hurt. What do they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? Your lowering your self to use words that, (how ever well earned by you) I will not lower myself to use on you.
I find you obtuse.

Now go ahead cry some more and look worse yet....

Click to expand...

Norby Grown said:

I don't care who you are.

Click to expand...

If that were true. You wouldn't have come into a post that wasn't yours to attempt to grind my ass....
Another indication of personal problem butt hurt!

Umm, that's a quote from Larry the cable guy. Blue collar comedy tour? I was having fun, not butt hurt. Try again.

I just don't like the way you treat newbies and the way you lie. Pissed, ya, butt hurt, nope.

And not attempting, succeeding. You FINALLY read the whole tox report now on teh stuff YOU have been touting as safe. Something I did about myclobutanil BEFORE I started touting it as a safe cure. I think I've completed showing your hypocrisy, incompetence, arrogance and egotism now, have a nice day!

I will.

Had a few minutes.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+7882

/LABORATORY ANIMALS: Subchronic or Prechronic Exposure/ In a 14-week oral toxicity study, BSN 2060 (/spiromesifen/, purity = 99.5-100%) was administered to 10 Wistar rats/sex/dose in the diet at dose levels of 0, 100, 500, or 3000 ppm (equivalent to 0, 6.3, 31.7, 204.0 mg/kg bw/day in males and 0, 7.7, 36.6, 232.1 mg/kg/day in females) and 10 additional Wistar rats/sex (recovery group) in the diet at dose levels of 0 and 3000 ppm (equivalent to 0 and 209.4 mg/kg bw/day in males and 0 and 245.6 mg/kg bw/day in females). 3 females at 3000 ppm died (1 accidently) died during the study interval. Treatment-related clinical signs including staggering gait, bloody muzzle, hard feces, poor general condition, aggression, saltatory spasm (clonic), and squatting position were observed in females at 3000 ppm with clinical signs observed during the recovery period.

So the bloody muzzle was what I was referring to as nose bleeds and the next experiment after this one cited listed heavier brain and heart weights, not lighter. So I was wrong in stating that they resulted in lighter brain and heart weights it resulted in heavier weights. In an animal it would be bloody muzzles in a human I suspected the correct correlation would be nose.

Just thought I'd clear that up.