Building Aero Cloner
- Thread starter Achillesactual
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Keesje
Well-Known Member
Giving your plants too much nutes is possible.
If the roots absorb water with a high concentration nutes, then yes, the plant can get too much nutes.
Giving them too much water is probably impossible. What we call 'overwatering' is in reality surrounding the roots with water that at a certain point has not enough or no DO anymore. Then the roots will get blocked and not get oxygen anymore. So we would better call it 'under-oxygening'
If you mean that because of evaporation the roots absorb too much water, yes, that is possible. But is that a matter of too much water or overheating the leafs?
Too much oxygen is probably also impossible, as the plants take what they need.
A plant in soil has oxygen in a gaseous state around it's roots. It is hundreds of times more in mg then DO in water can ever be.
So I woud not know how you could give a plant too much oxygen. Under normal conditions I mean.
There are tests going on with super-saturated water. For example 17 mg/liter. The crops did not do better or worse then under normal conditions. But very interesting subject.
If the roots absorb water with a high concentration nutes, then yes, the plant can get too much nutes.
Giving them too much water is probably impossible. What we call 'overwatering' is in reality surrounding the roots with water that at a certain point has not enough or no DO anymore. Then the roots will get blocked and not get oxygen anymore. So we would better call it 'under-oxygening'
If you mean that because of evaporation the roots absorb too much water, yes, that is possible. But is that a matter of too much water or overheating the leafs?
Too much oxygen is probably also impossible, as the plants take what they need.
A plant in soil has oxygen in a gaseous state around it's roots. It is hundreds of times more in mg then DO in water can ever be.
So I woud not know how you could give a plant too much oxygen. Under normal conditions I mean.
There are tests going on with super-saturated water. For example 17 mg/liter. The crops did not do better or worse then under normal conditions. But very interesting subject.
I didnt say too much oxygen was an issue, too much water/nutes "or" too little water/nutes/oxygen 
Root suffocation due to restricted access to oxygen can occur equally well with liquid water or a high density mist such as ultrasonic fog.
The key thing is whether you have the ability to control these variables. In most cases, the only real control you have is over the nutes, which is less important than control over the water because that has the knock on effect on oxygen availability..If you had two identical pots of soil, one tended by hand and one tended by some clever machine that could always maintain the perfect moisture, oxygen and nutrient balance for the stage of growth. which would produce the better result? The level of control makes a difference, a system that can deliver 0.5 seconds of mist isnt nonsense compared to one that can only manage 60 seceonds. The 0.5sec system can be set to 60secs but the 60sec system cant be set to 0.5sec
Root suffocation due to restricted access to oxygen can occur equally well with liquid water or a high density mist such as ultrasonic fog.
The key thing is whether you have the ability to control these variables. In most cases, the only real control you have is over the nutes, which is less important than control over the water because that has the knock on effect on oxygen availability..If you had two identical pots of soil, one tended by hand and one tended by some clever machine that could always maintain the perfect moisture, oxygen and nutrient balance for the stage of growth. which would produce the better result? The level of control makes a difference, a system that can deliver 0.5 seconds of mist isnt nonsense compared to one that can only manage 60 seceonds. The 0.5sec system can be set to 60secs but the 60sec system cant be set to 0.5sec
Keesje
Well-Known Member
I do not have that much experience with the ultrasonic misters.
Did some tests for clones with those floating devices you can put in a bowl of water or in a pond
2 minutes on, several minutes off.
The roots developed good, but the system is too expensive, it can break down easily and adding nutes is not an option, because the nutes are to heavy or thick or whatever to turn it into floating mist.
In a commercial greenhouse I saw the misters that spray this fine fog.
But it also expensive and technically difficult.
I wonder if you would keep this misters on all of the time, if you could suffocate your roots in this way. I think that there still will be enough oxygen available. But it is just a guess, I admit. I have never seen a fogger on all the time.
Why I said earlier that all this 0.5 seconds is nonsense, is because as long as roots get water and oxygen it will be ok.
If someone wants to do it, fine. It is a free society, and everyone should do what he thinks is best. Even if it is BS.
If one would put a sprayer-mister (is this is what they are called?) on for 0.5 or 5 or 15 seconds and then some time off, the roots will develop the same.
The roots get wet, the roots can thus absorb oxygen. Just as simple as that.
The seize of the droplets does also not or hardly matter. Wet is wet.
Perhaps a very thin layer of water around the roots would have as a result that the roots could absorb more oxygen in a shorter time period. But if it would benefit the growth of a plant or its fruits... I doubt it.
Good growers are looking for this sweet spot where there is always enough nutes, water and oxygen available.
Water and oxygen is physics in combination with biology.
Nutes, PH and EC and all those thing, are mainly biology and finding out what your plants really need.
It is much harder to distinguish science from BS (at least for me)
I will never get in a discussion about these subjects. Way to complicated for me. Out of my league.
Did some tests for clones with those floating devices you can put in a bowl of water or in a pond
2 minutes on, several minutes off.
The roots developed good, but the system is too expensive, it can break down easily and adding nutes is not an option, because the nutes are to heavy or thick or whatever to turn it into floating mist.
In a commercial greenhouse I saw the misters that spray this fine fog.
But it also expensive and technically difficult.
I wonder if you would keep this misters on all of the time, if you could suffocate your roots in this way. I think that there still will be enough oxygen available. But it is just a guess, I admit. I have never seen a fogger on all the time.
Why I said earlier that all this 0.5 seconds is nonsense, is because as long as roots get water and oxygen it will be ok.
If someone wants to do it, fine. It is a free society, and everyone should do what he thinks is best. Even if it is BS.
If one would put a sprayer-mister (is this is what they are called?) on for 0.5 or 5 or 15 seconds and then some time off, the roots will develop the same.
The roots get wet, the roots can thus absorb oxygen. Just as simple as that.
The seize of the droplets does also not or hardly matter. Wet is wet.
Perhaps a very thin layer of water around the roots would have as a result that the roots could absorb more oxygen in a shorter time period. But if it would benefit the growth of a plant or its fruits... I doubt it.
Good growers are looking for this sweet spot where there is always enough nutes, water and oxygen available.
Water and oxygen is physics in combination with biology.
Nutes, PH and EC and all those thing, are mainly biology and finding out what your plants really need.
It is much harder to distinguish science from BS (at least for me)
I will never get in a discussion about these subjects. Way to complicated for me. Out of my league.
Consider the thin layer of water on the roots idea being elevated to the next level, where the roots are surrounded by a relatively vonstant mist/fog which keeps them in the sweet spot. I guess the easiest way to visualise it is to imagine a theoretically perfect soil with zero machanical resistance and the optimum amount of water, nutes and oxygen. Now imagine it without the soil When you look at an aeroponic root, it should have more in common structurally with a soil root than a hydro root.
The droplet size and quantity does matter because in aero wet is not wet and dry is not dry. its a grey area Sit in a sauna fully clothed and over time you`ll become progressively wetter or at least damper.. In an aeroponic root chamber, the moisture is delivered at the same rate as the root is using it so the environment remains more or less constant, +/- a barely perceivable swing in mist density over the mist pause duration.
When you look at an aeroponic root, it should have more in common structurally with a soil root than a hydro root.The droplet size and quantity does matter because in aero wet is not wet and dry is not dry. its a grey area
Sit in a sauna fully clothed and over time you`ll become progressively wetter or at least damper.. In an aeroponic root chamber, the moisture is delivered at the same rate as the root is using it so the environment remains more or less constant, +/- a barely perceivable swing in mist density over the mist pause duration.as to floating foggers, which I tried, they are no bueno for a number of reasons
* the water get too hot
* the fog cannot lift the nutrients up
* any ppm above 300 quickly wears out the ceramic discs
The beauty f HA is that spits the nutes out under pressure ~ 80-m100 PSI which fills the root chamber and when the pause cycle comes on, the fog/droplets gently fall on the roots
I am using a 260 gph pump with hpa mist heads, but, without a filter the heads are constantly clogging
I wrapped the pump in cheese cloth, but that doesn't really help much
My idea was to just start the 3 females in this, and once big enough, then transfer to my F & , BUT, the clogging set root development way back, so I left them in this set up. It's amazing they survived at all, and have grown with decent buds, though all 3 equal one when done correctly
Pics from late last week. due to partial clogging the spray does not spread ut as it should, hence the water droplets hanging on the roots
* the water get too hot
* the fog cannot lift the nutrients up
* any ppm above 300 quickly wears out the ceramic discs
The beauty f HA is that spits the nutes out under pressure ~ 80-m100 PSI which fills the root chamber and when the pause cycle comes on, the fog/droplets gently fall on the roots
I am using a 260 gph pump with hpa mist heads, but, without a filter the heads are constantly clogging
I wrapped the pump in cheese cloth, but that doesn't really help much
My idea was to just start the 3 females in this, and once big enough, then transfer to my F & , BUT, the clogging set root development way back, so I left them in this set up. It's amazing they survived at all, and have grown with decent buds, though all 3 equal one when done correctly
Pics from late last week. due to partial clogging the spray does not spread ut as it should, hence the water droplets hanging on the roots
Here`s a pretty uneventful but thankfully short vid to illustrate the concept of aeroponic mist environment.
At the very start of the vid look for the visual reference points on the left, right and lower part of the screen to get an idea of the mist density present at the end of a 140 second pause duration.. try to clock them before the 0.5 second misting pulse hits the chamber Keep an eye on those visual reference points after the misting pulse and throughout the 140 sec pause for changes in density.
If you compare the density at the start of the vid and just before the 2nd mist pulse at the end of the video you`ll notice its pretty much identical. The mist density just before and just after each misting pulse could be loosely described as the dry and wet parts of each cycle, in reality,there`s almost no difference.
At the very start of the vid look for the visual reference points on the left, right and lower part of the screen to get an idea of the mist density present at the end of a 140 second pause duration.. try to clock them before the 0.5 second misting pulse hits the chamber
Keep an eye on those visual reference points after the misting pulse and throughout the 140 sec pause for changes in density.If you compare the density at the start of the vid and just before the 2nd mist pulse at the end of the video you`ll notice its pretty much identical. The mist density just before and just after each misting pulse could be loosely described as the dry and wet parts of each cycle, in reality,there`s almost no difference.
Keesje
Well-Known Member
Very interesting.
How do you know if the roots do not need more then the amount of water that you spray on it?
And what would be the difference if the burst was not for 0.5 seconds but for 2 seconds?
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The same as you do with other systems, let the plants tell you You can also visually check the roots to see how moist they are. Using 2 seconds of mist would instantly quadruple the flow per misting and increase the mist density, which effectively reduces the space available for air. There would also be a lot more mist remaining in the chamber when the next mist pulse hits. The roots would soon be dripping wet and you`d likely see the leaves start to droop due to overmisting / oxygen deprivation.
A 5 second change in the pause timing can make a big difference over the course of several hours.
You could think of it like increasing or decreasing the interval on a drip system, over the course of a few days you could start to see signs of under or overwatering. The results of changes just show up a lot quicker in aero..
You can also visually check the roots to see how moist they are. Using 2 seconds of mist would instantly quadruple the flow per misting and increase the mist density, which effectively reduces the space available for air. There would also be a lot more mist remaining in the chamber when the next mist pulse hits. The roots would soon be dripping wet and you`d likely see the leaves start to droop due to overmisting / oxygen deprivation.A 5 second change in the pause timing can make a big difference over the course of several hours.
You could think of it like increasing or decreasing the interval on a drip system, over the course of a few days you could start to see signs of under or overwatering. The results of changes just show up a lot quicker in aero..
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dstroy
Well-Known Member
Yeah mine adjusts feed times based on a six hour window of average humidity and temperature, in 5msec increments with a sliding target based off of a 48 hour window. It’s working really good. I wish I had one of those turgor sensors cause I’d use that data to make the feeding algo even better. It’s fun to try to think of ways to teach it to react to changing conditions based on plant demand. .5 -.7 sec every 1-2.5min. Basically the same 3sec/3min I started with. Just a more consistent delivery with env. variables taken into consideration . Any more than that and my roots are soaked. You’ll know when you got it right.
WeedFreak78
Well-Known Member
I just built a LP Aero cloner out of spare parts, pretty much the same as the bucket posted earlier. 400gph pond pump with a T pipe and three 360deg misters. Runs 1 on 5 off. Keeps the stems moist and humidity up in the chamber between cycles. I like the idea of a HPA cloner, but they honestly seem overkill seeing how I can pop roots in 10-14 days in a cup of bubbling water.
Mullumbimby
Well-Known Member
I use an ultrasonic fogger and an airstone, both on 100% of the time.
My water gets pretty hot, but I'm getting excellent results - I'm talking 100% success, no cleaning or bleaching and no root rot of any kind. I don't even bother to clean-out between batches, now that I've seen how reliable the system is.
I use collars and foam inserts and I make sure to cut the mesh out of the collar. I remove the collar from the plant by lifting it over the leaves and stems, rather than risk breaking any of the lovely, prolific (and usually very white) roots.
I thought it through and I think I'm getting away with being so slack because I use both the airstone and the fogger.
With only a mister or fogger (and no airstone), you are going to get really high DO initially, but don't forget that the air that's being dissolved in your water is essentially trapped in your tote or bucket or whatever - once that is used up, your DO will plummet.
The airstone makes sure that I'm pumping fresh air into the system 24/7, and the fogger (in my view) is making sure that the DO level of the water is as high as it can get.
It seems to me that high temperatures are not really a problem (in fact, quite the opposite) in the presence of maximum oxygen.
Good luck and thanks to everyone in RIU that has contributed on this subject.
My water gets pretty hot, but I'm getting excellent results - I'm talking 100% success, no cleaning or bleaching and no root rot of any kind. I don't even bother to clean-out between batches, now that I've seen how reliable the system is.
I use collars and foam inserts and I make sure to cut the mesh out of the collar. I remove the collar from the plant by lifting it over the leaves and stems, rather than risk breaking any of the lovely, prolific (and usually very white) roots.
I thought it through and I think I'm getting away with being so slack because I use both the airstone and the fogger.
With only a mister or fogger (and no airstone), you are going to get really high DO initially, but don't forget that the air that's being dissolved in your water is essentially trapped in your tote or bucket or whatever - once that is used up, your DO will plummet.
The airstone makes sure that I'm pumping fresh air into the system 24/7, and the fogger (in my view) is making sure that the DO level of the water is as high as it can get.
It seems to me that high temperatures are not really a problem (in fact, quite the opposite) in the presence of maximum oxygen.
Good luck and thanks to everyone in RIU that has contributed on this subject.