Burn or Deficiency. +rep for help

I'm what you might call an advanced newbie on his first grow. I've done a lot of research, but this is my first practical experience.

I can't take pics right now because I have to pull the plants out of the room to do it, and I have 3,000 Lady Bugs crawling all over the plants right now. So I'm using pics I found on self help threads.

I have 2 problems going on it seems. One is the tips of the leaves getting brown and the other is kind of a funky look to the leaf itself. You can see examples of both in the pics.

Only problem is, burns seem to look like deficiencies. Is there any way to tell the difference between the two? Or is the only way to experiment and try to feed them and see if it gets worse?

A little history: I used FFOF and on some bad advice I added some bone & blood meal. I had what I beleive to be minor nute burns for the first 3 weeks, then they went away so on the 4th week I fed them. I had a pH fluctuation problem at the same time so I didn't feed again while I figured out that the new & weird damage was done by a pH fluctuation. And I only used 1/3 a tablespoon of Tiger Bloom when I fed. I also had a spider mite, a fungus gnat, and a white fly infestation start at the same time.

2 weeks have gone by since then. I've taken care of the pH and the bugs, but some of the minor nute burns seems to have returned. When doing research I saw that the burns look just about identical to deficiencies. So that leaves me here wonding what my next move is.

I'll be watering tommorow and I have to know whether to feed them, or to water them with extra water to try to flush some of the nutes out.

Can anyone help with this?

Ok, most of those pics look like heat stress. This is typically exhibited by browning starting on the outside of the fingers and working its way inward. This may also be accompanied by leaf edges curling upwards. The picture of the plant that is in the early stages of budding appears to have minor nute burn. The distinction is that on the nute burn, only the tip has started to brown. This is the first signs of nute burn, which should be followed by a flush. You didn't mention what phase of growth, but going by how many weeks you have said have gone by, it seems that you must be in flower. Also the fact that you are using Tiger Bloom is a clue. After about 3 or 4 weeks of flower you will begin to see signs of the plant using nutrients in its tissues, and this will cause the leaves to start to lose color and wilt, starting from the bottom of the plant. Don't let this be mistaken for nute burn or deficiency, it is natural. When you can get us some pics of your girls we can probably diagnose her for sure.

Wow, you sure have had your share of "learning experiences"

I just ordered a new book I found (don't have it yet) but thought you (and others) might be interested it's called Marijuana Garden Saver, has pics of all possible problems with practicle solutions it's $12 (I ordered 5 books to get free shipping)

http://www.amazon.com/Marijuana-Garden-Saver-Handbook-Healthy/dp/0932551912

I'd say it's probably a combination of pH fluctuation and nutrient burn. Adding bone and blood meal to Ocean Forest will make it really hot and is certainly the reason you burnt them early on. Waiting a month to feed again was a good call, but you probably should have waited longer.

Tiger bloom is a very powerful, concentrated nutrient that SIGNIFICANTLY lowers pH. Like took my pH 7 water down to 4. Crazy. So that probably was the reason you started to see pH related deficiencies recently. How do you measure the pH of your nutrient solution and soil?

To remedy your situation, you should start by correcting any imbalance with your pH, then give the plant a nice flush, using 3x as much water as your pot size (1 gallon pots require 3 gallons of water to really "flush," etc). After the flush make sure your pH is good and monitor the plant. The next time the plant needs water, give it a light to normal strength feeding with nutrients, then alternate one water feeding between every nutrient application.

Hope you took some clones though, as these stressed plants will likely produced a diminished yield, well short of its genetic potential.

Jerry Garcia said:

I'd say it's probably a combination of pH fluctuation and nutrient burn. Adding bone and blood meal to Ocean Forest will make it really hot and is certainly the reason you burnt them early on. Waiting a month to feed again was a good call, but you probably should have waited longer.

Tiger bloom is a very powerful, concentrated nutrient that SIGNIFICANTLY lowers pH. Like took my pH 7 water down to 4. Crazy. So that probably was the reason you started to see pH related deficiencies recently. How do you measure the pH of your nutrient solution and soil?

To remedy your situation, you should start by correcting any imbalance with your pH, then give the plant a nice flush, using 3x as much water as your pot size (1 gallon pots require 3 gallons of water to really "flush," etc). After the flush make sure your pH is good and monitor the plant. The next time the plant needs water, give it a light to normal strength feeding with nutrients, then alternate one water feeding between every nutrient application.

Hope you took some clones though, as these stressed plants will likely produced a diminished yield, well short of its genetic potential.

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yep thats what i call. i would flush with phed water for a week or so then start back with the nutes. 1/4 to 1/2 strength. make sure you ph after mixing up your nutes.

Jerry Garcia said:

I'd say it's probably a combination of pH fluctuation and nutrient burn. Adding bone and blood meal to Ocean Forest will make it really hot and is certainly the reason you burnt them early on. Waiting a month to feed again was a good call, but you probably should have waited longer.

Tiger bloom is a very powerful, concentrated nutrient that SIGNIFICANTLY lowers pH. Like took my pH 7 water down to 4. Crazy. So that probably was the reason you started to see pH related deficiencies recently. How do you measure the pH of your nutrient solution and soil?

To remedy your situation, you should start by correcting any imbalance with your pH, then give the plant a nice flush, using 3x as much water as your pot size (1 gallon pots require 3 gallons of water to really "flush," etc). After the flush make sure your pH is good and monitor the plant. The next time the plant needs water, give it a light to normal strength feeding with nutrients, then alternate one water feeding between every nutrient application.

Hope you took some clones though, as these stressed plants will likely produced a diminished yield, well short of its genetic potential.

Click to expand...

the stress thingi will have to disagree with. i hace some plants freez they were so stressed out but yet she yeilded the most of one plant that i have ever harvested. some strains like stress and some don't. but these days i tend to stress mine out. on purpose

mygirls said:

but these days i tend to stress mine out. on purpose

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I was speaking generally...I'm sure there are many examples like yours of stressed plants producing a huge yield, but that's probably more of an exception than the rule. A plant that is stressed can become stunted, never reaching it's full growth potential...that's all I was saying.

mygirls, how exactly are you stressing them on purpose? Just exposing them to the cold or what? Sounds crazy to me lol...

Photo #6 is doing exactly what my plants are doing.\
]

will it may not be considered stress to many but stressed as to major difference between temps when lights on and off. i live on the oregon coast so during the winter months power goes out quite regularly so they are definitely light stressed. at time i just water with strait un ph'ed tap water for shit some times a month or so to the point were the are so badly hurting for nuts. but if i was home more often it would be different. but it seem like compared to the past grows were i had babied my plants and the yields wern't as great as what i had just described. hell i'm probley just way to medicated. hahahahaha. but any merry xmas hope the day is going well

dutc2006 said:

Ok, most of those pics look like heat stress. This is typically exhibited by browning starting on the outside of the fingers and working its way inward. This may also be accompanied by leaf edges curling upwards. The picture of the plant that is in the early stages of budding appears to have minor nute burn. The distinction is that on the nute burn, only the tip has started to brown. This is the first signs of nute burn, which should be followed by a flush. You didn't mention what phase of growth, but going by how many weeks you have said have gone by, it seems that you must be in flower. Also the fact that you are using Tiger Bloom is a clue. After about 3 or 4 weeks of flower you will begin to see signs of the plant using nutrients in its tissues, and this will cause the leaves to start to lose color and wilt, starting from the bottom of the plant. Don't let this be mistaken for nute burn or deficiency, it is natural. When you can get us some pics of your girls we can probably diagnose her for sure.

Click to expand...

Thanks for helping +rep

The tips of some of the healthy leaves are curling downward. The tips that are brown aren't curling at all for the most part. The sides of the leaves aren't curling at all.

The plant that's in the early stage of budding looks like minor nute burns to me too. But the site where I got it sais it's a calcium deficiency. Which is part of the reson I'm wondering if I have nute burn or not.

I'm in my 6th week of veg. Sorry for the confusion, I used a little Tiger Bloom because the only veg fert I have is a fish emulsion (5-1-1) and all I was really worried about was K & minor nutes. The plants have plenty of N & P.

Sorry about the lack of pics, this will be my first harvest and I'm planning on buying a real digital camera at that point. Till then I'm stuck with my computer cam which is in the living room. With the lady bugs all over the plants, I really can't bring them out to take pics without letting the Lady Bugs out.

I guess a flush is the best way to test it & see if it's nute burns.

I have a question though. FFOF supposedly has enough nutes to last the first 4 weeks of a plants life. When I mixed the 5 gallon pots I put 2 tablespoons of bone meal & 2 of blood meal in with each 5 gallon pot. I started gettin minor nute burns (only tips of leaves) from day 1 and those minor nute burns became more & more rare as time went on. I assumed at some point the plants would have eaten enough of it for the burns to go away without flushing. Am I wrong, is a flush the only way to correct the problem?

riddleme said:

Wow, you sure have had your share of "learning experiences"

I just ordered a new book I found (don't have it yet) but thought you (and others) might be interested it's called Marijuana Garden Saver, has pics of all possible problems with practicle solutions it's $12 (I ordered 5 books to get free shipping)

http://www.amazon.com/Marijuana-Garden-Saver-Handbook-Healthy/dp/0932551912

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip +rep

I really can't afford to spend money untill I start selling some clones at a good click. I got rapid rooter 4 or 5 days ago, so I'll know how that's gonna go in a few days. If at least 40 root, I should be in good shape, providing I can find a dispensory that will pay a decent price for them.

Jerry Garcia said:

I'd say it's probably a combination of pH fluctuation and nutrient burn. Adding bone and blood meal to Ocean Forest will make it really hot and is certainly the reason you burnt them early on. Waiting a month to feed again was a good call, but you probably should have waited longer.

Tiger bloom is a very powerful, concentrated nutrient that SIGNIFICANTLY lowers pH. Like took my pH 7 water down to 4. Crazy. So that probably was the reason you started to see pH related deficiencies recently. How do you measure the pH of your nutrient solution and soil?

To remedy your situation, you should start by correcting any imbalance with your pH, then give the plant a nice flush, using 3x as much water as your pot size (1 gallon pots require 3 gallons of water to really "flush," etc). After the flush make sure your pH is good and monitor the plant. The next time the plant needs water, give it a light to normal strength feeding with nutrients, then alternate one water feeding between every nutrient application.

Hope you took some clones though, as these stressed plants will likely produced a diminished yield, well short of its genetic potential.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the help +rep

I added the bone & blood meal off of bad advice. I learned the hard way early on to always get confirmation by 3 or 4 people min. before accepting advice. lol

I only added 1/3 tablespoon of the Tiger Bloom to each gallon. I thought that would be safe, and I really wanted to get the plants some K and some minor nutes. They responded great at first. But you're right, just 1/3 of a teaspoon dropped the pH considerably. I re-pH'd the water after adding the nutes, not sure if that was a mistake or not since the bottle said not to.

The pH imbalance was due to correcting another newbie mistake. I was using a dirt probe to pH the water and didn't realize it was not accurate on water till the 3rd week in. When I tested the distilled water I was using with an aquarium pH test kit I realize the pH was under 6.0 by a good bit. I started using spring water and pH'd it to 6.3 - 6.5 from that point forward. I guess the jump in pH was a bit for the girls to take and I ended up with some funky leaves, like the one in the pic.

As fate would have it, this is when I also realized the Thrips were Spider Mites and that I also had Gnats & White Flies. So that wasn't the only funky leaf damage that I was trying to diagnose.

But the bugs are gone for the most part (still worried about a return of spider mites, even with 3,000 lady bugs helping me out) and the pH has been solid ever since.

When I flush I'm going to need 105 gallons of water, so I'm going to have to use tap water, and since I only have about 30 one gallon jugs, I'm gonna have to do 2 plants at a time since the tap water has to sit out for 24 hours. Do I have to pH all that water, or just the last 2 or 3 gallons used in the flush?

When I start to add nutes to the soil again, being at the end of veg and about to start flower in 2 weeks, do I have to feed heavier on any of the nutes? In other words, should I start with the Fish Emulsion or a Fish Emulsion/Tiger Bloom mix to load up heavier on N than the others? Or should I try to keep it pretty even between the 3 major nutes? And should I start with a full dose since the plants are 12" to 15" at this point?

I've been taking clones the whole time, and they've given me more & more as time has gone on. I could easily go in there now and take another 40 or 50 if I had someplace to root them.

Do you mean after the flush they'll start growing slower? If so, would it be better to just water heavy & wait it out? (do kind of a mini flush each watering) I really can't afford to loose too much yeild right now. The bigger the yeild the more upgrades I'll be able to do, and I need a lot of upgrades starting with a digital camera and decent hoods.

mygirls said:

yep thats what i call. i would flush with phed water for a week or so then start back with the nutes. 1/4 to 1/2 strength. make sure you ph after mixing up your nutes.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info +rep

I've been wondering if I did the right thing by pHing after adding nutes.

Do I really have to pH all the water used in the flush though? I can't get away with just pHing the last few gallons? (105 gallons is a lot of water to pH)

seasmoke said:

Photo #6 is doing exactly what my plants are doing.\
]

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Well according to the site where I got the pic it's a calcium deficiency. Not really sure though.

I have noticed that Calcium is hard to find in nutes though. (sulpher, molybdenum, & magnesium too) If you're using chemically based nutes I did find one brand with all the minor nutes. www.dyna-gro.com

Hope that helps.

I don't want to get off point, the main problem I'm having is the nutes. But I have also been wondering about the leaf tips curling downwards.

I don't think it's heat stress, I keep the temp at 80 degrees at the tops of the planters under the light.

I don't think it's light stress or burn, I have two 400w HIDs hung 28" above the plant tops.

I just turned 1 off, I don't think the lady bugs like it. They seem to be nesting in the corners of where the 2x4 that the light hang from meet the walls. And I need the lady bugs on the plants, I am worried that one 400w MH wouldn't be enough for 7 plants in a 9 sq. ft. area.

I thought it might be underwatering, but after giving them each 6 cups of water the night before last and seeing that some leaves straightened out but most didn't, I'm starting to doubt that's the case.

If anyone has thoughts on this problem, please share them as well. But nutes are the #1 thing that I want to track down first.

And getting back to the nutes. The growth seems to have been a little stunted. At 6 weeks I'd expect them to be to 2" already. But would it be better to just keep watering & not feed without flushing? Would the stress be better on the plants as far as yeild?

if your flushing to harvest then no you do not have to ph your water, but if your flushing because of plant problems then yes ph your water.

Cut down on Tiger Bloom! Very strong stuff...I start out with 1/4 tsp...yes teaspoon not tablespoon, then work my way up. It's better to under fert than over fert IMO

mygirls said:

if your flushing to harvest then no you do not have to ph your water, but if your flushing because of plant problems then yes ph your water.

Click to expand...

Dam, I was really hoping to not have to pH 105 gallons of water.

Update, only 2 plants are really showing nute burns, my 2 biggest. I assume their roots have grown into soil that still has all the nutes, not sure though. So I guess I'll flush these 2 first. 1 of the plants is especially bad, gotten worse over the past 24 hrs. She's got burns all up & down one side. The 2nd one still isn't that bad.

I guess after starting with these 2 I should wait to see if the others show signs before flushing, right?

I also can' flush till tommorow. I only have 6 gallons of tap water that have had 24hrs to breath. I'll have to start filling the other gallon jugs.

Ok, when it comes to letting water sit out, remember that the reason you want to get the chlorine out is because it can kill off beneficial organics in your soil. Using it one time will not devastate your plants, it is a rule of thumb that you should always keep in mind. I keep 5 gallon buckets full to sit out and then pH adjust them after 24 hours. All water you give your plant should be pH adjusted, not just the water you are using as your nute mix. I buy the pH up and down powder form, much cheaper, it is about $15 each at my local hydro store. It only takes a tiny pinch of pH down for me to get my tap that starts at around 7.5 down to 6.5 in the 5 gallon buckets. as far as flushing goes, there are products that can help you cut down on how much water you will need. I use Clearex, a salt leaching solution that assists in flushing out nutes. As your plant gets larger it will be able to uptake more nutrients without burning itself. All plants are different and you have to tinker around to find the happy medium with each. I am able to use 1 tsp/gallon tiger bloom, along with 1/8 tsp/gallon of soluble bud booster and have no problems, with most of my strains after they get about 2ft. tall, just to give you a round about idea. Now that you are in a situation where you have overfed your plants, just totally back off on the nutes for several days after your flush and wait until the new growths come out looking healthier. Once you have accomplished this try to get your plants back to a generally healthy and green look before you throw them into flower and you will have better results, because the act of switching the lights is a minor stress on the plants as well. Use your fish emulsion to bring them back to a healthy green, and don't start with a full dose, 1/4 strength would be recommended, wait 2 days and if no adverse effects, increase a nother 1/4 strength until you have the happy healthy green you want. Only fertilize every other watering always, and never fertilize dry soil, moisten it first with plain water for best results.

dutc2006 said:

Ok, when it comes to letting water sit out, remember that the reason you want to get the chlorine out is because it can kill off beneficial organics in your soil. Using it one time will not devastate your plants, it is a rule of thumb that you should always keep in mind. I keep 5 gallon buckets full to sit out and then pH adjust them after 24 hours. All water you give your plant should be pH adjusted, not just the water you are using as your nute mix. I buy the pH up and down powder form, much cheaper, it is about $15 each at my local hydro store. It only takes a tiny pinch of pH down for me to get my tap that starts at around 7.5 down to 6.5 in the 5 gallon buckets. as far as flushing goes, there are products that can help you cut down on how much water you will need. I use Clearex, a salt leaching solution that assists in flushing out nutes. As your plant gets larger it will be able to uptake more nutrients without burning itself. All plants are different and you have to tinker around to find the happy medium with each. I am able to use 1 tsp/gallon tiger bloom, along with 1/8 tsp/gallon of soluble bud booster and have no problems, with most of my strains after they get about 2ft. tall, just to give you a round about idea. Now that you are in a situation where you have overfed your plants, just totally back off on the nutes for several days after your flush and wait until the new growths come out looking healthier. Once you have accomplished this try to get your plants back to a generally healthy and green look before you throw them into flower and you will have better results, because the act of switching the lights is a minor stress on the plants as well. Use your fish emulsion to bring them back to a healthy green, and don't start with a full dose, 1/4 strength would be recommended, wait 2 days and if no adverse effects, increase a nother 1/4 strength until you have the happy healthy green you want. Only fertilize every other watering always, and never fertilize dry soil, moisten it first with plain water for best results.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your help +rep

I've been using distilled white vinegar & baking soda to adjust the pH. I really can't afford to spend any more money till I start selling off some clones. And as it turns out I can only flush 1 at a time (I only have 21 one gallon jugs after all). Since I recently moved, the only things that I have that are 5 gallons or bigger are coolers.

I only fed that one time. This is mainly because of adding bone & blood meal to the FFOF soil. I guess I should have flushed a long time ago.

And 1 more question just popped in my head. I added Mycorrhiza to the soil a couple of weeks ago. I dug 4 holes in each planter and added a table spoon. It has very low nutes, like 0.1 - 0.2 - 1.0 or something close to that. The question is, will flushing also flush out the Mycorrhiza or not?