Calcium Carbonate & CaCO3

kratos015 said:

That compost you just described sounds like a wet dream, your plants will surely thank you. Why I started my journal in the first place. I know very little about growing produce, and I'm learning so much. That said? The same soil that has given me such tremendous success for cannabis, I theorized, why wouldn't it give me the same success for other plants?

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I learned a great deal about my soil from growing cannabis, which informed my gardening, which has reflected back to the indoor growing. It's been a great year for a curious mind!

But I have come to treat the soil differently between inside and out. Not much, and the principle is the same. I don't want to dump bags of aeration into my garden, and, since the native bentonite is brutal to work with, I solve both problems with pelletized gypsum. It's a common agricultural tactic around here. Every few years, any given field will have a huge pile of white powder delivered to its edge which is then plowed into the field. Sometimes this is gypsum, sometimes a mixture of Dolomite and gypsum. This tactic also helps with the low native Mg and S (which is curiously aligned with what you're saying about how certain types of calcium "leach" those elements--and our bentonite is LOADED with various calciums and iron, which comes out in my well water for the garden).

Of course the indoor soil I use, though based on the same system of support, has a different enough overall makeup that gypsum is overkill (as I am beginning to think). Even though I have the resources to build a good soil (access to leaves and grass), it is not enough to sustain an entire garden in the same manner. It's just not enough land and/or the climate is too dry. Not enough biomass.

Also, I use tap water for indoor plants, which, though similar to my well water (city water comes from the river one mile from my well), is obviously treated. I haven't put much thought into this difference yet, but I'm wondering about it more now.

Anyway, kind of rambling, but I've been barking up the same tree about cannabis/garden soil (which, as I get to more minutiae of gardening, is becoming more and more like cannabis soil, pumpkin soil, potato soil, tomato soil, etc.).

kratos015 said:

Dude, you wrote this in such a concise and simple manner. I need to learn from you. Your explanation is brilliant.

Give Langbeinite a try some time, experiment with it, and see how it works for you. I think you'll be surprised.

Like you've said, the excess CaCO3 does in fact have an antagonizing effect on Mg, K, and P. Even worse than this, if one is growing outdoors in the same dry and arid climates that water/dirt with CaCO3 is found in, then Mg and K will literally be leeched from your soil.

Interestingly enough, Langbeinite has Mg and K in it. Furthermore, not only does it have sulfur, but in sulfate form (SO4) which allows it to dissipate CaCO3, as well as other salts. The study (I believe I linked in a prior post?) pointed out how Gypsum is used to leech salts from soils. It pointed out how seemingly counter productive it is to pour more Ca in the form of Gypsum, however, the Gypusm (Calcium Sulfate, specifically) actually removes salts from one's soil.

When one hears the word "salt", one's first thought is "table salt" right? But "salt" isn't just sodium. Take Epsom Salts, for instance. Or the CaCO3 salts we're all having such a productive conversation on.

So, despite the fact Gypsum has Calcium in it, more importantly than that it has Sulfate in it. I have zero scientific basis to back this up, other than my own personal experiences and anecdotes. That said, I am quickly discovering that Sulfates are a crucial part of the living soil process.

Think of a forest fire, and how prolific the growth is after a forest fire. What is the result of fire burning things? Sulfur. Sulfates more specifically, if I'm not mistaken? Sulfur has also been proven to play a direct role in terpene development.

Point being, Langbeinite provides the same "salt leeching" properties that Gypsum does, while simultaneously providing Magnesium and Potassium.

More interestingly, the article I linked in my earlier post address the 0-0-22 NPK of Langbeinite. It claimed that the study found that the soil with Langbeinite in it, had the same K content that the other soils that had no Langbeinite. The study then speculated that the plants, or perhaps the soil itself, was in fact making use of that "excess" K.

Just food for thought, and bravo again on the explanation. As brilliant as it was concise!

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Appreciate the compliments
I have been more curious about sulfur lately as well, picked up form SulPoMag but have yet to incorporate it - I’m presuming that sulpomag and langebeinite are one in the same?

I want to top dress with some before my next run, the product I picked up it from Optimize Organics (definitely worth checking them out if you haven’t already). I didn’t realize it when ordering, but it’s in a fairly chunky granular form - would I do well to grind it into a finer powder before incorporating? Or does the larger particle size serve a purpose? I also understand you can easily overdo it with langebeinite.

Bukvičák said:

What kind of soil and what kind ph meter?

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My mix is essentially a tweaked Coots mix with extra goodies like activated biochar, lava rock, rice hulls etc, run in 20 gal grassroots living soil pots - just about to start my third run in them, going to try no-till and see how she goes.

I also make/incorporate KNF preps (too many to list). I am passionate about harnessing what’s around me, blessed to live in a boreal forest.

The pH soil pen is by Bluelabs, I absolutely love it. Had been a bit of a game changer for me, my first ‘real’ pH meter that I feel I can trust.

lakesidegrower said:

My mix is essentially a tweaked Coots mix with extra goodies like activated biochar, lava rock, rice hulls etc, run in 20 gal grassroots living soil pots - just about to start my third run in them, going to try no-till and see how she goes.

I also make/incorporate KNF preps (too many to list). I am passionate about harnessing what’s around me, blessed to live in a boreal forest.

The pH soil pen is by Bluelabs, I absolutely love it. Had been a bit of a game changer for me, my first ‘real’ pH meter that I feel I can trust.

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What's your observations with the pen and the soil so far, are you seeing fluctuations in pH and does it change anything with the grow? My understanding is that with organic the pH of the water is not that important (within reason 5.5-7.5 maybe?). I'm tempted to grab a pen myself to study the soil in that regard.

JimmyJackCorn said:

I learned a great deal about my soil from growing cannabis, which informed my gardening, which has reflected back to the indoor growing. It's been a great year for a curious mind!

But I have come to treat the soil differently between inside and out. Not much, and the principle is the same. I don't want to dump bags of aeration into my garden, and, since the native bentonite is brutal to work with, I solve both problems with pelletized gypsum. It's a common agricultural tactic around here. Every few years, any given field will have a huge pile of white powder delivered to its edge which is then plowed into the field. Sometimes this is gypsum, sometimes a mixture of Dolomite and gypsum. This tactic also helps with the low native Mg and S (which is curiously aligned with what you're saying about how certain types of calcium "leach" those elements--and our bentonite is LOADED with various calciums and iron, which comes out in my well water for the garden).

Of course the indoor soil I use, though based on the same system of support, has a different enough overall makeup that gypsum is overkill (as I am beginning to think). Even though I have the resources to build a good soil (access to leaves and grass), it is not enough to sustain an entire garden in the same manner. It's just not enough land and/or the climate is too dry. Not enough biomass.

Also, I use tap water for indoor plants, which, though similar to my well water (city water comes from the river one mile from my well), is obviously treated. I haven't put much thought into this difference yet, but I'm wondering about it more now.

Anyway, kind of rambling, but I've been barking up the same tree about cannabis/garden soil (which, as I get to more minutiae of gardening, is becoming more and more like cannabis soil, pumpkin soil, potato soil, tomato soil, etc.).

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Out here that white powder is sometimes tilled in the desert soil every other crop. Looks like snow sometimes. I live near huge agriculture fields.

Week4@inCharge said:

What's your observations with the pen and the soil so far, are you seeing fluctuations in pH and does it change anything with the grow? My understanding is that with organic the pH of the water is not that important (within reason 5.5-7.5 maybe?).

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Mostly true, and that's why I brought up the CaCO3 for reference. The pH of the water itself isn't important unless it is capable of causing fluctuations or a buffer. If that water doesn't buffer pH, it will likely be 100% okay to use. The only issues that can arise from using tap water, is that you may experience lockouts due to excess mineral content. Easily remedied though, by omitting the minerals in question (often Ca) from your soil, and relying on your water as a source.

I could be mistaken here, but I believe this is one of the many reasons why peat is used as a base for soils. Not only does peat have a high Cation Exchange Capacity, but it is very acidic. So, even if buffered with lime/OSF, when kept properly moist, one will find the pH levels tend to fluctuate between 6.0-7.0, give or take.

Week4@inCharge said:

I'm tempted to grab a pen myself to study the soil in that regard.

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Can't recommend it enough. I can't speak for others, but certainly the best money I've spent. Many will test moisture as well.

Ultimately, all that anyone can do here is provide our own perspective and insight based on our own personal experiences.

We all have different variables in the equation of growing: water supply, climate, bio-mass availability, soil drainage (or lack thereof), ingredients, genetics, etc.

I say this to anyone happening to be reading this. Keep asking questions, absorb all the information you can, but most importantly, note your own observations for your specific and unique grow/environment, as that will be most important. You're the one interacting with the plants/garden every day, so take 100% confidence in your own observations you are making.

I feel like that is something that isn't emphasized enough, we all come from different climates, environments, and situations. No one grow will be the same. I feel if this was emphasized more heavily, people would be more bold in attempting to grow in the first place.

Week4@inCharge said:

Out here that white powder is sometimes tilled in the desert soil every other crop. Looks like snow sometimes. I live near huge agriculture fields.

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No shit? Any idea what that white powder is? Does it look similar to what @JimmyJackCorn described?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the reason "modern" agriculture recommends tilling the land with gypsum is to leech and eliminate salts. For a large scale agricultural facility that tends to use salt based synthetic fertilizers, I can see why they need to apply Gypsum to the soil. Leeches the very same salts they've applied to the soil in the first place!

My native dirt is very similar to Coachella: tons of clay and rocks, a little bit of sand, and zero organic matter.

Somewhat daunting getting enough leaf mold to mix with our native dirt, however we're truly blessed. The opposite problem, excess organic matter, and little drainage, is much more expensive and annoying to troubleshoot.



All the best.

kratos015 said:

No shit? Any idea what that white powder is? Does it look similar to what @JimmyJackCorn described?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the reason "modern" agriculture recommends tilling the land with gypsum is to leech and eliminate salts. For a large scale agricultural facility that tends to use salt based synthetic fertilizers, I can see why they need to apply Gypsum to the soil. Leeches the very same salts they've applied to the soil in the first place!

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In the scope of this discussion, it strikes me as a bit odd that farmers around here add such high-content calcium amendments to a soil laden with it. I want to look more into what's going on there.

But the main reason I tried pelletized gypsum, and I was astonished with the results: it magically turns bentonite clay into loose dirt. Heard about it, tried it, was amazed. Got a nice potato crop for the effort. Now I want to know how that happened.

I got thinking about this more, and most of the fields I see with the white piles are corn fields. Corn requires lots of calcium, and it grows deep roots. Seems gypsum would then be a good amendment to our bentonite!

Still, I want to look into what type and how much calcium is in my locale's native dirt. Iron is aplenty, too, and I don't know what that's doing. I only know all this because of scaling, and because I filled a pool with my well water. The water rusted brown until the iron filtered out, and constantly buffered back up above 8.0 pH--all summer long.

JimmyJackCorn said:

In the scope of this discussion, it strikes me as a bit odd that farmers around here add such high-content calcium amendments to a soil laden with it. I want to look more into what's going on there.

But the main reason I tried pelletized gypsum, and I was astonished with the results: it magically turns bentonite clay into loose dirt. Heard about it, tried it, was amazed. Got a nice potato crop for the effort. Now I want to know how that happened.

I got thinking about this more, and most of the fields I see with the white piles are corn fields. Corn requires lots of calcium, and it grows deep roots. Seems gypsum would then be a good amendment to our bentonite!

Still, I want to look into what type and how much calcium is in my locale's native dirt. Iron is aplenty, too, and I don't know what that's doing. I only know all this because of scaling, and because I filled a pool with my well water. The water rusted brown until the iron filtered out, and constantly buffered back up above 8.0 pH--all summer long.

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I'm not really sure what they're adding to the soil, but I'll find out. I'll keep you guys posted.

JimmyJackCorn said:

In the scope of this discussion, it strikes me as a bit odd that farmers around here add such high-content calcium amendments to a soil laden with it. I want to look more into what's going on there.

But the main reason I tried pelletized gypsum, and I was astonished with the results: it magically turns bentonite clay into loose dirt. Heard about it, tried it, was amazed. Got a nice potato crop for the effort. Now I want to know how that happened.

I got thinking about this more, and most of the fields I see with the white piles are corn fields. Corn requires lots of calcium, and it grows deep roots. Seems gypsum would then be a good amendment to our bentonite!

Still, I want to look into what type and how much calcium is in my locale's native dirt. Iron is aplenty, too, and I don't know what that's doing. I only know all this because of scaling, and because I filled a pool with my well water. The water rusted brown until the iron filtered out, and constantly buffered back up above 8.0 pH--all summer long.

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IF your clay soil is sodic (Na in excess of 15% on the soil's CEC), flocculation happened.

Here's a simple explanation...

waktoo said:

IF your clay soil is sodic (Na in excess of 15% on the soil's CEC), flocculation happened.

Here's a simple explanation...

Can Gypsum Remediate Dense, Deflocculated Soils?

www.eco-gem.com

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I don't know if my particular soil is sodic or not, but it could be. Based on obsevation and anecdote, it seems likely.


I checked out your link, and it jibes with what I found from this NDSU study. I am also in the northern Great Plains, so that study resonated with me. It claims that in my region some places are sodic and some are not.

I kinda doubt I will actually get my soil tested. In almost ten years of gardening this soil, that gypsum was a game changer. I'd be willing to bet my backyard soil is sodic. To be more sure, I will probably do a mock-up of that dispersive test with distilled water.

JimmyJackCorn said:

I don't know if my particular soil is sodic or not, but it could be. Based on obsevation and anecdote, it seems likely.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ndsu.edu/soilhealth/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Saline-and-Sodic-Soils-2-2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjxleOEnN70AhWsFjQIHSibC14QFnoECD8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1rZM8WVuemNSob_hAKi4Jc

I checked out your link, and it jibes with what I found from this NDSU study. I am also in the northern Great Plains, so that study resonated with me. It claims that in my region some places are sodic and some are not.

I kinda doubt I will actually get my soil tested. In almost ten years of gardening this soil, that gypsum was a game changer. I'd be willing to bet my backyard soil is sodic. To be more sure, I will probably do a mock-up of that dispersive test with distilled water.

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Right on.

If you just want to "see", I found this yesterday when I was looking around for stuff to describe flocculation to you...

Week4@inCharge said:

What's your observations with the pen and the soil so far, are you seeing fluctuations in pH and does it change anything with the grow? My understanding is that with organic the pH of the water is not that important (within reason 5.5-7.5 maybe?). I'm tempted to grab a pen myself to study the soil in that regard.

Click to expand...

The bluelabs pen is slick, not cheap but I feel like I can trust it. I really didn’t like ‘not knowing’ or being able to measure the soil pH when I felt that it was causing issues. If anything the info I get from the pen helps me chill out a bit and be more confident in my process.

My first reading when I got it showed a soil pH consistently between 7.4 and 7.8 which IMO is way too high and confirmed my suspicions that my soil pH was out of whack. I started watering with water pHd to 5.8 and within a couple of weeks it was down to around 6.8. I should note that the soil pH would/will fluctuate, but before phing down my water, it would never be below 7.2.

the change in pH in the soil did result in positive changes in my plants, and I could visibly see some of the sign in the foliage that the plant was doing a better job taking up nutrients.

lakesidegrower said:

The bluelabs pen is slick, not cheap but I feel like I can trust it. I really didn’t like ‘not knowing’ or being able to measure the soil pH when I felt that it was causing issues. If anything the info I get from the pen helps me chill out a bit and be more confident in my process.

My first reading when I got it showed a soil pH consistently between 7.4 and 7.8 which IMO is way too high and confirmed my suspicions that my soil pH was out of whack. I started watering with water pHd to 5.8 and within a couple of weeks it was down to around 6.8. I should note that the soil pH would/will fluctuate, but before phing down my water, it would never be below 7.2.

the change in pH in the soil did result in positive changes in my plants, and I could visibly see some of the sign in the foliage that the plant was doing a better job taking up nutrients.

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I have one also and feel each grower is going to get slightly different readings depending on how they use the probe. Consistent moisture level when testing and being consistent on the amount of time the probe is left in the soil are key IMO.
The manual suggests watering with RO the day before using the probe.

Kushash said:

I have one also and feel each grower is going to get slightly different readings depending on how they use the probe. Consistent moisture level when testing and being consistent on the amount of time the probe is left in the soil are key IMO.
The manual suggests watering with RO the day before using the probe.

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Totally agree - that’s my take as well. I was wondering what other people’s experience with the pen has been like that way.

I try to be consistent with my depth as well as moisture levels. I haven’t had ro to water with so just kept doing my thing with phing my water and measuring the ph in the soil over time, trying to keep all else consistent. I noticed the ph will fluctuate a bit depending on the moisture level in the pot, can also get slightly different readings in different areas of my 20 gal pots.

So you guys @lakesidegrower @Kushash got me interested in grabbing that Blue Pen.. I've mentioned it here lots (maybe once or twice) and will say it again, every time I go through a "thing" the one sure question that always comes up is... What's the pH of your soil" ? The ladies are doing better than good at the moment, but..that thing..you know that "thing' will always come up when you least expect it.. so best to be ready for it. And I think it was @kratos015 that suggested I use a soil with some Peat Moss in it to help stabilize things a bit. I was breaking my head a bit searching for that perfect soil for me online, decided, I'll break my head on the next grow and grabbed a bag of what I'm using now, Happy Frog. Lil brother was asking why I like that soil, I just knew it was not as hot as most Fox Farm soils, only reason I decided to use the stuff, i continue to read the ingredients in the bag...

Composted forest humus, sphagnum peat moss, perlite, earthworm castings, bat guano, humic acid (derived from Leonardite), oyster shell and dolomite lime (for pH adjustment).

Think I found my go to soil for my needs here. and I'm doing the half RO and half charcoal filtered tap water. things have improved and it seems like I just might have a lot less "things" happening. Got 8 weeks to go still! (in FLower) LOL>> Crossing my fingers.. HAh!

Week4@inCharge said:

So you guys @lakesidegrower @Kushash got me interested in grabbing that Blue Pen.. I've mentioned it here lots (maybe once or twice) and will say it again, every time I go through a "thing" the one sure question that always comes up is... What's the pH of your soil" ? The ladies are doing better than good at the moment, but..that thing..you know that "thing' will always come up when you least expect it.. so best to be ready for it. And I think it was @kratos015 that suggested I use a soil with some Peat Moss in it to help stabilize things a bit. I was breaking my head a bit searching for that perfect soil for me online, decided, I'll break my head on the next grow and grabbed a bag of what I'm using now, Happy Frog. Lil brother was asking why I like that soil, I just knew it was not as hot as most Fox Farm soils, only reason I decided to use the stuff, i continue to read the ingredients in the bag...

Composted forest humus, sphagnum peat moss, perlite, earthworm castings, bat guano, humic acid (derived from Leonardite), oyster shell and dolomite lime (for pH adjustment).

Think I found my go to soil for my needs here. and I'm doing the half RO and half charcoal filtered tap water. things have improved and it seems like I just might have a lot less "things" happening. Got 8 weeks to go still! (in FLower) LOL>> Crossing my fingers.. HAh!

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Yea I’d recommend the blue labs soil pen for sure, gives me info I can use to make smarter decisions.

The peat naturally is naturally acidic, the gypsum/dol lime would help with buffering, can’t say for sure if the peat itself will ‘buffer’ but it does bring a pH-down effect to the soil mix. My water has high levels of bicarbonate which I suspect was responsible or part-of why my pH was high in my pots.

I’m choosing to cut way back on the Ca inputs in my mix and water with r/o or rain water, with some of the harder water mixed in eventually (when the plants show Ca is being depleted from the soil). All of this is still an educated hypothesis, so we’ll see how she goes.

lakesidegrower said:

Yea I’d recommend the blue labs soil pen for sure, gives me info I can use to make smarter decisions.

The peat naturally is naturally acidic, the gypsum/dol lime would help with buffering, can’t say for sure if the peat itself will ‘buffer’ but it does bring a pH-down effect to the soil mix. My water has high levels of bicarbonate which I suspect was responsible or part-of why my pH was high in my pots.

I’m choosing to cut way back on the Ca inputs in my mix and water with r/o or rain water, with some of the harder water mixed in eventually (when the plants show Ca is being depleted from the soil). All of this is still an educated hypothesis, so we’ll see how she goes.

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I am now one with the Universe. (yup, my first Bluelab product and I'm stoked)

Week4@inCharge said:

I am now one with the Universe. (yup, my first Bluelab product and I'm stoked)
View attachment 5056331

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Ive so been wanting one,I just use drops for now.I also just plant clones in and if there happy then I guess pH is good.

Week4@inCharge said:

I am now one with the Universe. (yup, my first Bluelab product and I'm stoked)
View attachment 5056331

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Nice! Soil pH looks like it’s on point to-boot

myke said:

Ive so been wanting one,I just use drops for now.I also just plant clones in and if there happy then I guess pH is good.

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This is what I’d prefer as well lol. When the ‘no need for pH in Organics’ discussion comes up, my simple response is that I totally agree, ideally you shouldn’t need to fuss around at all. But those ‘ideal’ conditions don’t always happen to every grower right away; measuring pH can be helpful in getting yourself to ‘ideal’. I am not yet there, goals for sure.

lakesidegrower said:

Nice! Soil pH looks like it’s on point to-boot



This is what I’d prefer as well lol. When the ‘no need for pH in Organics’ discussion comes up, my simple response is that I totally agree, ideally you shouldn’t need to fuss around at all. But those ‘ideal’ conditions don’t always happen to every grower right away; measuring pH can be helpful in getting yourself to ‘ideal’. I am not yet there, goals for sure.

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So I've sorta hit a conundrum today. I tested the rest of the pots that seemingly appear to be doing well. They're all between 5.5 and 5.8 So yeah , and doing well, go figure. Could they be doing better? Well according to the Cannabis soil pH chart, 6-7 is optimal, we can argue that 6.5 to 7 is optimal.. So little confused here right now. (yes the pH pen has been calibrated) I want to add something here (CaMg(CO3)2 Calcium Magnesium Carbonate. Better known to the community as Dolomite Limestone. Anybody here using it? How does this compare to Calcium Carbonate? I got some this morning and applied it to the pots as a top amendment. So we'll see what happens.